Oh, dang it. My memories were based on the French translation, you see. Incapacitated Hortense or no, however, it still very probably refers to Hortense in-universe from a DonRosan point of view.
There's another reference to "(the boys') grandma" in "Maharajah Donald".
This is the third such reference we've identified (including "Sales Resistance" and "Volcano Valley", discussed above). So, Hortense or Elvira? Or Barks thinking Elvira is Donald's mother at this point? I still like the idea that the reference is to Hortense, who is alive at this point although semi-incapacitated; perhaps she passed away soon after (before the events of "Christmas on Bear Mountain").
EDIT: Many have pointed out that the "Grandma" in "Donald Duck's Best Christmas" neither looks not acts like Elvira, and the story revolves around the Ducks trying to get to Grandma's house, not her farm.
I doubt it was Barks' intention, but maybe this character could be retconned into Hortense to fit the proposed theory?
Many have pointed out that the "Grandma" in "Donald Duck's Best Christmas" neither looks not acts like Elvira, and the story revolves around the Ducks trying to get to Grandma's house, not her farm.
I doubt it was Barks' intention, but maybe this character could be retconned into Hortense to fit the proposed theory?
Meh. I know of this theory and I don't really like it. In this case, I'm pretty sure it isn't made to be Donald's mother, and there are enough early stories with Grandma living in a house.
Meh. I know of this theory and I don't really like it. In this case, I'm pretty sure it isn't made to be Donald's mother, and there are enough early stories with Grandma living in a house.
But there's nothing in the story itself to contradict it. Donald never calls this character "Grandma" (the way he does Elvira), only HD&L do. He does *refer* to her as Grandma when talking about her to the boys, but that's a fairly common practice when parents talk to their children about their own parents. Why are you sure this character is not meant to be Donald's mother, whereas the "boys' grandmother" references in "Volcano Valley", "Sales Resistance" and "Maharajah Donald" are? In-universe, do you think this is Elvira? And real-world, was this just Barks not referring to his model sheet when drawing Elvira, or do you think this was meant to be a different character than Elvira?
And real-world, was this just Barks not referring to his model sheet when drawing Elvira, or do you think this was meant to be a different character than Elvira?
I'm pretty darn sure that it was the first thing you mentioned: just Barks not referring to his model sheet when drawing Elvira. Or rather, Barks not having a model sheet at all.
This story was the first time Barks used a Grandma character, and it seems pretty obvious that he dimly remembered the character existed, drew her from memory, and this is what we got...
But why draw her from memory? Well—at the time Barks drew the story, the early Taliaferro strips with Grandma had not yet been reprinted in the Dell comics, where Barks would have had them on hand for easy reference. In lieu of that, it follows that Barks would have remembered the character from the newspapers, but not had copies of the strips available for quick access, so decided to fudge it.
(He could have asked Disney to send him copies, of course, but I'd make an educated guess that for just a two-panel appearance by the character, he wouldn't have considered it worth the trouble.)
This story was the first time Barks used a Grandma character, and it seems pretty obvious that he dimly remembered the character existed, drew her from memory, and this is what we got...
This make the most sense. The totality of evidence cited above has now more-or-less convinced me that for most of his career, Barks considered Elvira Donald's mother. By the time he crafted his first unofficial family tree, he somehow thankfully realized it wouldn't work. In-universe, I'm sticking with the theory that the "boys' Grandma" referenced in all the stories above is Hortense and that she died shortly before 1947, and before Scrooge reconnected with his surviving family.
The Grandma from 'Best Christmas' could of course also be HD&L's father's mother. Which is interesting, considering there's a theory going around that HD&L's father is Daisy's brother. This would mean that this Grandma is Daisy's mother. Coincidentally, she looks more or less identical to the old lady in Daisy's house from Barks' 'Donald's Love Letters'.
Personally, I seriously dislike the idea that HDL's father is Daisy's brother. I believe this arose for two reasons: they both have the last name Duck, and HDL call her Aunt Daisy. Both of these are inadequate reasons to conflate the families. In particular, the fact that HDL call her Aunt Daisy is a sign that they live in mid-twentieth century USA, when (I can attest to this) polite children called adult friends of the family "Aunt" or "Uncle." The relationship was too informal to call them "Mr./Mrs./Miss Last-name" (this was before "Ms." was invented), but children in those days did not call adults by their first name.
Personally, I seriously dislike the idea that HDL's father is Daisy's brother. I believe this arose for two reasons: they both have the last name Duck, and HDL call her Aunt Daisy. Both of these are inadequate reasons to conflate the families. In particular, the fact that HDL call her Aunt Daisy is a sign that they live in mid-twentieth century USA, when (I can attest to this) polite children called adult friends of the family "Aunt" or "Uncle." The relationship was too informal to call them "Mr./Mrs./Miss Last-name" (this was before "Ms." was invented), but children in those days did not call adults by their first name.
I'm with you on this. Rosa has expressed his affinity for the idea of HD&L's father being Daisy's brother (and married to Donald's sister, which apparently would make a romance between Donald and Daisy taboo in some cultures, if I remember the discussions on the DCML) although he did not show it on the final version of his Duck family tree and easily could have (he did have it down as such in his draft of the tree), so I guess it's a third thing I disagree with Rosa on (after the Fethry-Whitewater siblinghood and Matilda-Ludwig marriage, in both cases due to previously established facts). One good thing about this theory is that it reduces the number of unrelated families named Duck, though the same outcome results from Della being a single mother as is the case in my headcanon (but understandably not in that of most).
Also, I believe this was asked on another thread but I'm not sure it was answered (or if it was, I forget the answer), but did Barks ever have HD&L call Daisy 'Aunt Daisy"? I think the answer is no.
I think a pretty good argument against the "Daisy is the sister of HD&L's father" can be found in a Barks story, actually... I'm talking about the "Flipism" story. You know, the story where Donald uses a coin toss to solve every dilemma he comes across. At the end of the story, he follows the coin to an unfamiliar neighbourhood and an apartment he's never been to before, only to have the door answered by Daisy, because the apartment turns out to belong to Daisy's sister (the mother of April, May and June), and Daisy happens to be visiting her sister at the time.
Thing is, HD&L are along for this trip. They don't recognise the neighbourhood or the apartment either. But if Daisy is their aunt, then Daisy's sister must also be their aunt (and April, May and June their cousins). Even if we did accept the extremely unlikely premise that Donald somehow didn't know, or perhaps in his ire had forgotten, where HD&L's aunt lived, why on earth wouldn't HD&L know? They know where Daisy lives! And this other aunt lives in Duckburg too, pretty clearly within walking distance -- and since Daisy is visiting her, she's clearly not trying to keep her distance from her family.
You could make the argument that HD&L did know and just never told Donald just so he'd realise once and for all that flipism was nonsense, but that's a really flimsy premise too; there's no reason why they'd let it play out the way it did when they could just have told Donald "Unca Donald, this is our aunt's place! Now can we drop this coin tossing and go to the movies?"
Nope -- if Daisy was HD&L's aunt, the ending of that story would not have worked. For someone so obsessed with continuity and the minute details of Barks's stories, I'm amazed that Rosa didn't pick up on this.
I think a pretty good argument against the "Daisy is the sister of HD&L's father" can be found in a Barks story, actually... I'm talking about the "Flipism" story. You know, the story where Donald uses a coin toss to solve every dilemma he comes across. At the end of the story, he follows the coin to an unfamiliar neighbourhood and an apartment he's never been to before, only to have the door answered by Daisy, because the apartment turns out to belong to Daisy's sister (the mother of April, May and June), and Daisy happens to be visiting her sister at the time.
Thing is, HD&L are along for this trip. They don't recognise the neighbourhood or the apartment either. But if Daisy is their aunt, then Daisy's sister must also be their aunt (and April, May and June their cousins). Even if we did accept the extremely unlikely premise that Donald somehow didn't know, or perhaps in his ire had forgotten, where HD&L's aunt lived, why on earth wouldn't HD&L know? They know where Daisy lives! And this other aunt lives in Duckburg too, pretty clearly within walking distance -- and since Daisy is visiting her, she's clearly not trying to keep her distance from her family.
You could make the argument that HD&L did know and just never told Donald just so he'd realise once and for all that flipism was nonsense, but that's a really flimsy premise too; there's no reason why they'd let it play out the way it did when they could just have told Donald "Unca Donald, this is our aunt's place! Now can we drop this coin tossing and go to the movies?"
Nope -- if Daisy was HD&L's aunt, the ending of that story would not have worked. For someone so obsessed with continuity and the minute details of Barks's stories, I'm amazed that Rosa didn't pick up on this.
Thank you, Hyaroo! Also, doesn't the appearance of AMJ at the end of Flipism seem to come as a surprise? Not, "oh, shoot, it's our annoying female cousins again."
Also, I will unnecessarily remind everyone that the argument that multiple births run in the family (therefore making it more likely for HDL and AMJ to be related) is a nonstarter, since the tendency to have *identical* multiples does not run in the family. Only multiple conceptions, which lead to non-identical twins/triplets etc.
Rosa just played with the idea ("Daisy is the sister of HDL's father") for a while in his headcanon & online discussions and it's not in his published family tree (nor in the personally edited family tree he gives to fans, which includes Ludwig as Matilda's husband), so I wouldn't be too censorious about his not thinking through the implications for Daisy's sister and AMJ.
But yes, like you, I dislike the notion that Daisy is HD&L's biological aunt. She works much better if she simply is Donald's long-term girlfriend and not actually related at all -- rather, she shares Gyro's status as "honorary family member" due to having been a close friend of the family for so long.
But if Daisy is their aunt, then Daisy's sister must also be their aunt (and April, May and June their cousins).
My main argument against the brother theory was always this. AMJ were clearly created to be little date partners for HDL in this story (and in my mind they are even implied to be their predestined fiancées). In some cultures the cousin relationship would be very awkward or even illegal nowadays. And why would Della leave HDL with Donald if she has a sister-in-law who already has experience with triplets? Okay, maybe she didn't really know her husband's family well... But even as their "adoptive father", why would Donald have seemingly much more responsibility regarding HDL than Daisy if they are related in the same way? I think it's obvious HDL called Daisy 'aunt' because of respect and not because they are related. But if you must have a reason, I would say they started to call her that after she stopped flirting with Gladstone and her relationship with Donald went serious or they got engaged.
I think it's obvious HDL called Daisy 'aunt' because of respect and not because they are related. But if you must have a reason, I would say they started to call her that after she stopped flirting with Gladstone and her relationship with Donald went serious or they got engaged.
Again, did Barks ever have HD&L call Daisy "Aunt"? Other writers have, I know, but Barks is gold-standard for me on these matters. Did Taliaferro or Rosa?
I think it's obvious HDL called Daisy 'aunt' because of respect and not because they are related. But if you must have a reason, I would say they started to call her that after she stopped flirting with Gladstone and her relationship with Donald went serious or they got engaged.
Again, did Barks ever have HD&L call Daisy "Aunt"? Other writers have, I know, but Barks is gold-standard for me on these matters. Did Taliaferro or Rosa?
Good question. I don't think there was a lot of interaction between Daisy and HDL in Barks stories and I'm pretty sure they just called her Daisy in A Christmas for Shacktown. Even if they called her that in some other stories, that would be occasional. But they always used unca'/uncle for Donald and Scrooge. If Daisy is their aunt, wouldn't it mean they are disrespectful with her when they just call her Daisy?
But if Daisy is their aunt, then Daisy's sister must also be their aunt (and April, May and June their cousins).
And why would Della leave HDL with Donald if she has a sister-in-law who already has experience with triplets? Okay, maybe she didn't really know her husband's family well... But even as their "adoptive father", why would Donald have seemingly much more responsibility regarding HDL than Daisy if they are related in the same way?
Would YOU want one of your relatives to saddle you with an extra set of baby triplets if you already had a set of your own, the same age??? 6 infants the same age. I don't think so!