page 11, panel 2: Grandma bottlefeeds Donald; Scrooge says, "He's eating more in an hour than I do in a month, Dorette!" page 13, panel 7: Grandma, Scrooge and Donald in the living room: "Well, Dorette, I'm on my way!"
In the Dutch version, Page 11, Panel 2 has no mention of Oma's given name. On Page 13, Panel 7, Scrooge (Dagobert) says: "Ik moet nu echt weg, Doortje! (I really must go now, Dorette!). Clearly, Oberon translated from the German version, because, The German publisher, Ehapa, had a longer tradition of using Italian stories, and used more of them than the Dutch publisher, AND, even more importantly, German is much closer to Dutch language, and every academic student in The Netherlands takes several years of German language courses. They could get one of their staff to do it on salary, as opposed to paying higher translation fees.
page 11, panel 2: Grandma bottlefeeds Donald; Scrooge says, "He's eating more in an hour than I do in a month, Dorette!" page 13, panel 7: Grandma, Scrooge and Donald in the living room: "Well, Dorette, I'm on my way!"
In the Dutch version, Page 11, Panel 2 has no mention of Oma's given name. On Page 13, Panel 7, Scrooge (Dagobert) says: "Ik moet nu echt weg, Doortje! (I really must go now, Dorette!). Clearly, Oberon translated from the German version, because, The German publisher, Ehapa, had a longer tradition of using Italian stories, and used more of them than the Dutch publisher, AND, even more importantly, German is much closer to Dutch language, and every academic student in The Netherlands takes several years of German language courses. They could get one of their staff to do it on salary, as opposed to paying higher translation fees.
Thanks for the info. So, according to what you said, the Dutch version of this story was translated from the German version rather than from the original Italian version.
By the way, I think the name Doortje you mentioned is the Dutch diminutive of Dora (just like Dorette is probably the German diminutive of Dora). In Dutch comics, is the diminutive Doortje used more often for Dora, or is Dora used more often than Doortje? I am asking this because you mentioned that in the Dutch translation of Rota's story they used the diminutive Doortje, but in the Dutch comics I have seen so far I have only met the name Dora, both in stories produced in the Netherlands...
... and in Dutch translations of foreign stories:
I only saw the name Doortje as the Dutch name of Scrooge's sister Matilda, which was probably the result of a mistake (the translators of the first chapter of Lo$ probably thought that she was going to become Grandma Duck). No big deal, of course, since it's not rare that an extended family has two people with the same name.
One last question: are we sure that the Dutch translation (1984) of Rota's story (also 1984) is the first instance of Dutch giving Grandma the name Dora/Doortje?
In the Dutch version, Page 11, Panel 2 has no mention of Oma's given name. On Page 13, Panel 7, Scrooge (Dagobert) says: "Ik moet nu echt weg, Doortje! (I really must go now, Dorette!). Clearly, Oberon translated from the German version, because, The German publisher, Ehapa, had a longer tradition of using Italian stories, and used more of them than the Dutch publisher, AND, even more importantly, German is much closer to Dutch language, and every academic student in The Netherlands takes several years of German language courses. They could get one of their staff to do it on salary, as opposed to paying higher translation fees.
Thanks for the info. So, according to what you said, the Dutch version of this story was translated from the German version rather than from the original Italian version.
By the way, I think the name Doortje you mentioned is the Dutch diminutive of Dora (just like Dorette is probably the German diminutive of Dora). In Dutch comics, is the diminutive Doortje used more often for Dora, or is Dora used more often than Doortje? I am asking this because you mentioned that in the Dutch translation of Rota's story they used the diminutive Doortje, but in the Dutch comics I have seen so far I have only met the name Dora, both in stories produced in the Netherlands...
... and in Dutch translations of foreign stories:
I only saw the name Doortje as the Dutch name of Scrooge's sister Matilda, which was probably the result of a mistake (the translators of the first chapter of Lo$ probably thought that she was going to become Grandma Duck). No big deal, of course, since it's not rare that an extended family has two people with the same name.
One last question: are we sure that the Dutch translation (1984) of Rota's story (also 1984) is the first instance of Dutch giving Grandma the name Dora/Doortje?
Yes, you are correct that "Doortje" is the Dutch language diminutive of "Dora. In Dutch comics "Dora" has shown up much more than "Doortje". THAT is due to the fact that other characters than Scrooge must use "Dora" when addressing Oma, as she is generally older than almost all of them, and is due proper respect, Scrooge calls her Doortje because he is her brother, and has called her by that name all their lives. Only her parents, other siblings, and perhaps best friend from childhood would also address her using that diminutive name. Oma may call Scrooge "Dagobertje" or "Bertje", based on closeness and familiarity, at least when she's not angry with him. When she is cross with him, she'd probably address him as "Dagobert", to indicate her anger or disappointment in his behaviour. The translators should have had Scrooge call Matilda ("Tildje").
Sorry, I don't remember IF Rota's 1984 story has the first use of "Doortje". And I don't have time to look through hundreds of comic books to find out. Let's hope Scroogearello, Duckfan, Hidde, or some other Dutch member can answer that for us.
Yes, you are correct that "Doortje" is the Dutch language diminutive of "Dora. In Dutch comics "Dora" has shown up much more than "Doortje". THAT is due to the fact that other characters than Scrooge must use "Dora" when addressing Oma, as she is generally older than almost all of them, and is due proper respect, Scrooge calls her Doortje because he is her brother, and has called her by that name all their lives. Only her parents, other siblings, and perhaps best friend from childhood would also address her using that diminutive name. Oma may call Scrooge "Dagobertje" or "Bertje", based on closeness and familiarity, at least when she's not angry with him. When she is cross with him, she'd probably address him as "Dagobert", to indicate her anger or disappointment in his behaviour. The translators should have had Scrooge call Matilda ("Tildje").
Are you saying that in the Dutch comics, Scrooge addresses Grandma by her first name rather than as the equivalent of "Grandma"? In the English comics, he always refers to her as Grandma, so that's a break from the American tradition. What about translations of Barks stories where Scrooge refers to her as "Grandma"? And what is the tradition in other languages?
In German Scrooge calls Grandma by her first name. In general her first name (as well as "Frau Duck") are used much more commonly thatn in the US. The early stories from the fifties have her being addressed as Grandma by everyone, but that was phased out once her first name was established.
"Dorette" is not a dimunitive of "Dora", by the way. If anything it would be the other way round, but I've never seen Grandma being called that in a German story.
"Dorette" is not a dimunitive of "Dora", by the way. If anything it would be the other way round, but I've never seen Grandma being called that in a German story.
So I was mistaken in thinking Dorette was a dimnutive of Dora. I thought that was the case because in Italy Doretta (which is very similar to Dorette) is the diminutive of Dora, but in addition of what you said there's also the German Wikipedia that, as I just noticed, lists Dora and Dorette as two different names.
Another thing that caused me to make that mistake is that Dutch comics call Grandma "Dora" or her diminutive "Doortje", and we know for sure they were inspired by the fact that German comics call her Dorette.
Yes, you are correct that "Doortje" is the Dutch language diminutive of "Dora. In Dutch comics "Dora" has shown up much more than "Doortje". THAT is due to the fact that other characters than Scrooge must use "Dora" when addressing Oma, as she is generally older than almost all of them, and is due proper respect, Scrooge calls her Doortje because he is her brother, and has called her by that name all their lives. Only her parents, other siblings, and perhaps best friend from childhood would also address her using that diminutive name. Oma may call Scrooge "Dagobertje" or "Bertje", based on closeness and familiarity, at least when she's not angry with him. When she is cross with him, she'd probably address him as "Dagobert", to indicate her anger or disappointment in his behaviour. The translators should have had Scrooge call Matilda ("Tildje").
Are you saying that in the Dutch comics, Scrooge addresses Grandma by her first name rather than as the equivalent of "Grandma"? In the English comics, he always refers to her as Grandma, so that's a break from the American tradition. What about translations of Barks stories where Scrooge refers to her as "Grandma"? And what is the tradition in other languages?
In Dutch, Scrooge addresses Grandma Duck by her diminutive (endearing) name for "Dora" (Doortje) (which would translate to "Dorette" in German, and whatever the diminutive of Dora would be in English). Wouldn't that be "Dorette" in English, as well? The only Dora I knew was an Aunt of mine. But she was Dutch, so her siblings and cousins called her Doortje, so that doesn't help me know what the English diminutive for Dora is. The tradition in The Netherlands and Germany is for Scrooge to call Grandma by her first name (and a diminutive, no less), as in those countries, they are brother and sister. In USA, their relationship wasn't defined, but they were assumed to be kin of some kind (perhaps cousins?, or related by marriage). They were both quite old, so they should act as peers in terms of respect shown. So, Scrooge should have addressed Grandma by her first name ("Elvira"), when they are alone, but when together with The Nephews, he could address her as "Grandma", so as to avoid confusing the kids.
"Dorette" is not a dimunitive of "Dora", by the way. If anything it would be the other way round, but I've never seen Grandma being called that in a German story.
So I was mistaken in thinking Dorette was a dimnutive of Dora. I thought that was the case because in Italy Doretta (which is very similar to Dorette) is the diminutive of Dora, but in addition of what you said there's also the German Wikipedia that, as I just noticed, lists Dora and Dorette as two different names.
Another thing that caused me to make that mistake is that Dutch comics call Grandma "Dora" or her diminutive "Doortje", and we know for sure they were inspired by the fact that German comics call her Dorette.
It seems to me that "Dorette" should be the diminutive of Dora in English, because the suffix, "ette" is the standard female diminutive in French, and English generally follows that pattern. The typical German female diminutive suffixes are -el and "lein" and "schen", as in "Fraulein, "liebschen" and gretel (diminutive of "Gretel"). "Dora" changing to "Dorel" makes no sense. When, in German language, adding the diminutive "el" would be confusing or sound "wrong", I could see German using a foreign diminutive, such as the French "ette". In Dutch, we also have "Doreen" or "Dorien" - the former is borrowed from English, the latter should also have been originally a diminutive of "Dora". Maybe the German diminutive of "Dora" would be "Dorit", which is the diminutive of "Dora" in Danish, Norwegian, and Swedish, along with "Ditte". This all is complicated by the fact that "Dora" IS ALREADY a diminutive for the Greek names, Isadora and Dorothea. Dora is neither common in Germany nor The Netherlands.
In USA, their relationship wasn't defined, but they were assumed to be kin of some kind (perhaps cousins?, or related by marriage). They were both quite old, so they should act as peers in terms of respect shown. So, Scrooge should have addressed Grandma by her first name ("Elvira"), when they are alone, but when together with The Nephews, he could address her as "Grandma", so as to avoid confusing the kids.
Yes, but as you well know, in Barks stories (as well as stories by other Western creators), Scrooge addresses and refers to Grandma as Grandma, even when they are alone. How was this handled when these stories were translated? In the Rosa-verse, Grandma belongs to a generation earlier than Scrooge, so one could make an argument against their considering themselves "equals".
Robb, are Scrooge and Grandma brother and sister in your headcanon?
Similarly, how does Gyro address Scrooge in various languages? Barks (and I believe Rosa as well) usually had him address Scrooge as "Mr. McDuck" but refer to him in his absence (and think of him) as "Scrooge", as if he was afraid to look too comfortable with the much-older, respected businessman ... typical, endearing Gyro behavior (the two Barks exceptions I can think of are "The Stubborn Stork" and "Fun? What's That?' where he calls him "Uncle Scrooge" ... Rosa changed Barks' "Uncle Scrooge" back to "Mr. McDuck" when he completed the "Pied Piper of Duckburg"). How is this handled with other publishers?
So, Scrooge should have addressed Grandma by her first name ("Elvira"), when they are alone
This is true in theory, but the fact is, in the USA (and many other countries) Grandma had no established name until the 1990's, when Don Rosa took the name Elviry from an obscure 1950 story and made it mainstream as Elvira. Now in Italy you can see stories where Scrooge calls her Elvira, like in the example below:
The same thing can happen in modern American editions. The following image comes from a translation of an Italian story, and in this case the name Elvira is the addition of the translator:
It seems to me that "Dorette" should be the diminutive of Dora in English, because the suffix, "ette" is the standard female diminutive in French, and English generally follows that pattern.
I don't know: I see that the Italian Wikipedia lists Dorina, Dorella, Doretta, Dorita as variants of Dora, while the English Wikipedia doesn't list any variant or diminutive.
Yes, but as you well know, in Barks stories (as well as stories by other Western creators), Scrooge addresses and refers to Grandma as Grandma, even when they are alone. How was this handled when these stories were translated? In the Rosa-verse, Grandma belongs to a generation earlier than Scrooge, so one could make an argument against their considering themselves "equals".
Well, it is an established fact that "Grandma" or "Grandma Duck" is a public nickname which is used even by people unrelated to her. That, plus the fact that there's no word to indicate your sister's mother-in-law, plus the fact that Grandma had no established English name until the 1990's... you get why he would call her Grandma.
A fun thing is that, in old Italian publications, you could have him calling her Grandma even in stories which portrayed them as sibilings. An example is the Italian translation of S 67072:
She calls him "fratello caro" ("dear brother"), and in the same panel he calls her "nonna" ("grandma"). Other Italian publications that portrayed them as sibilings had him call her "sorella" ("sister"):
In USA, their relationship wasn't defined, but they were assumed to be kin of some kind (perhaps cousins?, or related by marriage). They were both quite old, so they should act as peers in terms of respect shown. So, Scrooge should have addressed Grandma by her first name ("Elvira"), when they are alone, but when together with The Nephews, he could address her as "Grandma", so as to avoid confusing the kids.
Yes, but as you well know, in Barks stories (as well as stories by other Western creators), Scrooge addresses and refers to Grandma as Grandma, even when they are alone. How was this handled when these stories were translated? In the Rosa-verse, Grandma belongs to a generation earlier than Scrooge, so one could make an argument against their considering themselves "equals".
Robb, are Scrooge and Grandma brother and sister in your headcanon?
Similarly, how does Gyro address Scrooge in various languages? Barks (and I believe Rosa as well) usually had him address Scrooge as "Mr. McDuck" but refer to him in his absence (and think of him) as "Scrooge", as if he was afraid to look too comfortable with the much-older, respected businessman ... typical, endearing Gyro behavior (the two Barks exceptions I can think of are "The Stubborn Stork" and "Fun? What's That?' where he calls him "Uncle Scrooge" ... Rosa changed Barks' "Uncle Scrooge" back to "Mr. McDuck" when he completed the "Pied Piper of Duckburg"). How is this handled with other publishers?
To me, Grandma is NOT older than Scrooge, and she is Donald's grandmother, and Huey's, Dewey's and Louie's great-grandmother. To me, she and Scrooge are both related to Donald on opposite sides of his family (e.g. Grandma is Donald's father's mother, and Scrooge is Donald's mother's father's (Gideon's?) brother, or mother's sister's (Matilda's) brother. But, I didn't grow up with Gideon or the sisters Rosa used. I had planned to write several historical stories, in which Scrooge returns to Scotland, and we learn about his past. And I had planned to give Scrooge some brothers and sisters (as Scrooge's generation in Europe generally had 6-14 children per family. My father's mother had 12 siblings, his father was one of 10 children. And they were CITY Folk in Den Haag, NOT farmers (who generally in the late 1800s, had one child each year, until they had 14-15 (needing farm workers!). We Jews, generally owned shops and stores in those days, and also needed children to work in them. I worked in my father's grocery in Winnipeg, and in Chicago.
In the Dutch Books, Gyro (Willie Wortel) addresses Scrooge as "Oom Dagobert" (Uncle Scrooge). Willie was always considered a member of "The Duck Family", so he spoke in the familiar to ALL family members. However, it seems to me that The Germans, who have always been more class conscious, and more formal, have always had Gyro (Daniel Duessentrieb) address Scrooge as Herr Duck (Mr. Duck, and "Sir"). And, I don't believe The germans consider Gyro as a member of The Duck Family (despite Gyro's inclusion in all the "Duck (family) Albums.
To me, Grandma [...] is Donald's grandmother, and Huey's, Dewey's and Louie's great-grandmother. To me, she and Scrooge are both related to Donald on opposite sides of his family
I agree with this, since it would make him Donald's uncle and not greatuncle. Though "mother's sister's brother" seems redundant, since it basically means "mother's brother".
To me, Grandma [...] is Donald's grandmother, and Huey's, Dewey's and Louie's great-grandmother. To me, she and Scrooge are both related to Donald on opposite sides of his family
I agree with this, since it would make him Donald's uncle and not great uncle. Though "mother's sister's brother" seems redundant, since it basically means "mother's brother".
I consider the ancient Uncle Scrooge much, much older than Donald, and so, I consider him to be Donald's Great Uncle. So, I was wrong when I wrote I consider Scrooge to be Donald's mother's "sister's" brother. I meant Donald's "maternal grandmother's or maternal grandfather's brother.
To me, Grandma is NOT older than Scrooge, and she is Donald's grandmother, and Huey's, Dewey's and Louie's great-grandmother. To me, she and Scrooge are both related to Donald on opposite sides of his family (e.g. Grandma is Donald's father's mother, and Scrooge is Donald's mother's father's (Gideon's?) brother, or mother's sister's (Matilda's) brother. But, I didn't grow up with Gideon or the sisters Rosa used. I had planned to write several historical stories, in which Scrooge returns to Scotland, and we learn about his past. And I had planned to give Scrooge some brothers and sisters (as Scrooge's generation in Europe generally had 6-14 children per family. My father's mother had 12 siblings, his father was one of 10 children. And they were CITY Folk in Den Haag, NOT farmers (who generally in the late 1800s, had one child each year, until they had 14-15 (needing farm workers!). We Jews, generally owned shops and stores in those days, and also needed children to work in them. I worked in my father's grocery in Winnipeg, and in Chicago.
Very interesting; I've always liked the idea of Scrooge having more siblings than those two sisters Barks gave him- as you mention, it does fit the time which Scrooge grew up in. Also, I figure Scrooge's siblings and their relationship with their brother would be quite a unique addition to Disney comics (some of the few exeptions being Gideon, Rumpus and the occasional Scrooge/Grandma siblinghood) and could provide a great character development for Scrooge. It's a shame that Don Rosa's family tree seems to have been preventing the Duck family tree from growing any further, and gave every Duck relative a "confirmed" position on the tree. Personally, I like the tree to be a bit ambiguous, and that both authors and readers can come up with different explanations themselves.
But, before I'm wandering into off-topic rambling again On the topic of Grandma's first name; I am not aware of any stories before 1984's "From Egg to Duck" that make use of "Dora", but I think there very much is a possibility of it having popped up in some earlier publication.
And yes, Matilda was originally named Doortje in the Dutch translation of Lo$, most likely due to a confusion with Grandma Duck. The same thing seems to have happened in the German Lo$, where Matilda is named "Dortel", and she refers to Scrooge as "Bertel" ("Scroogie").
Last Edit: May 13, 2017 23:08:51 GMT by Scroogerello