Post by Scrooge MacDuck on Apr 15, 2018 9:54:45 GMT
I'm clearly on the Italian line which solves the problem rather neatly. Mouseton and Duckburg are separate cities, but located rather close to each other in Calisota, such that it is trivial to go from one to the other.
Of course, Donald lived in Mouseton in the Gottfredson-stories and early Taliaferro-strips. At some point after Huey, Dewey, and Louie first visited, Donald moved to Duckburg however. (Clarabelle Cow appears during their visit, confirming that this is still Mouseton.) I don't know when they moved though.
I'd say Donald had already moved into Duckburg by the time HDL came to live wih him. His house is quite the same as it is later on, for one thing. Clarabelle's presence I don't think is damning evidence at all; as I recall, even some Carl Barks-drawn Daisy Duck's Diary stories showed her as belonging to the same Women's Club as Daisy and Clara Cluck, which, to me, implies that in some versions of continuity, Clarabelle does live in Duckburg as opposed to Mouseton.
From Egg to Duck also shows Donald as getting his house from Scrooge before the nephews come to live with him, for what it's worth. Of couese, From Egg to Duck has some of the messiest continuity I've ever seen, and the best I can
I believe the official explanation is that the city officials changed the name from Silo Center to Mouseton to better fit when the town became more of a city.
That's also my thinking, although I hear David Gerstein has entertained the idea of it being a different city not far from Mouseton.
Fair enough, but since I wrote last my comment, I've done further research: Not only is Clarabelle present in the Nephews-storyline; she is actually Donald's next door neighbor - a position held by Jones and that other guy from W WDC 83-02 when Donald lives in Duckburg. Also, Goofy is seen walking around town in one of the Nephews-strips. Why would he be walking around in Duckburg if he lives in Mouseton? Do you think Goofy lives in Duckburg too?
According to inducks, Carl Barks used Clarabelle thrice: once in his only Mickey Mouse story, which is irrelevant to our discussion. Another time in 'A Sticky Situation', in which Daisy calls her, only to be ignored. And lastly, in 'Donald's Party', Clarabelle is indeed part of Daisy's Women's Club. Daisy even goes to visit Clarabelle's house, and it seems to be within walking distance. However, I wouldn't say this proves that Clarabelle lived in Duckburg back when HDL first visited Donald; only that since then, she has moved there. Relevant to this discussion is also the fact that Carl Barks didn't write 'Donald's Party', he only drew it.
Maybe Donald lived in Mouseton until 'Donald Duck finds Pirate Gold', which ends with him finding, well, pirate gold? The story features Black Pete, a Mouseton resident. Maybe Donald used the money to finance a move to Duckburg? That's of course just speculation, but since it was the first Barks story, it would make sense to have that connected to the move to Duckburg (which Barks invented).
Fair enough, but since I wrote last my comment, I've done further research: Not only is Clarabelle present in the Nephews-storyline; she is actually Donald's next door neighbor - a position held by Jones and that other guy from W WDC 83-02 when Donald lives in Duckburg. Also, Goofy is seen walking around town in one of the Nephews-strips. Why would he be walking around in Duckburg if he lives in Mouseton? Do you think Goofy lives in Duckburg too? (1)
According to inducks, Carl Barks used Clarabelle thrice: once in his only Mickey Mouse story, which is irrelevant to our discussion. Another time in 'A Sticky Situation', in which Daisy calls her, only to be ignored. And lastly, in 'Donald's Party', Clarabelle is indeed part of Daisy's Women's Club. Daisy even goes to visit Clarabelle's house, and it seems to be within walking distance. However, I wouldn't say this proves that Clarabelle lived in Duckburg back when HDL first visited Donald; only that since then, she has moved there. (2) Relevant to this discussion is also the fact that Carl Barks didn't write 'Donald's Party', he only drew it. (3)
Maybe Donald lived in Mouseton until 'Donald Duck finds Pirate Gold', which ends with him finding, well, pirate gold? The story features Black Pete, a Mouseton resident. Maybe Donald used the money to finance a move to Duckburg? That's of course just speculation, but since it was the first Barks story, it would make sense to have that connected to the move to Duckburg (which Barks invented). (4)
(1) You may be right in the grand scheme of things, but Donald's neighbors being ever different people is a recurring element — it's been Jones, it's been Anaclet, it's been Matt Mutt, it's been Mr Pup, it's even been Daisy once. The fact that Clarabelle was Donald's neighbor there and Jones was later is rather irrelevant.
(2) Of course, I wasn't proposing it as hard evidence; only that since we had evidence of Clarabelle living in Duckburg in stories taking place in "present day", her presence in pre-nephews DD strips wouldn't constitute damning evidence of a Mouseton setting. This is all just theorizing
(3) I wouldn't say it's that relevant, actually. Considering this whole discussion is rooted in Taliaferro strips and Gottfredson serials, we're clearly not in a Don Rosa-style Barks-centric world, so…
(4) Peg-Leg Pete would go on to very often visit Duckburg and antagonize Donald (he was even Donald's Jones-like neighbor in a later cartoon) or Grandma Duck. The man doesn't have fixed home. But either way, while engaging, this theory doesn't quite work out: you'll recall that in Pirate Gold, Donald and the Nephews begin not in their regular suburbian dwelling, but instead living in a seaside inn Donald owns. I could imagine Pirate Gold being an intermediary period between Donald's Mouseton and Duckburg periods, if we assume he did live in Mouseton that late, but he'd already moved out of Mouseton by Pirate Gold, no doubt about it. Also, re: Pete's presence, it means nothing at all regardless of Pete's housings because Pete's not just hanging around the neighborhood, he followed Yellow Beak a long way to Donald's inn.
(1) You may be right in the grand scheme of things, but Donald's neighbors being ever different people is a recurring element — it's been Jones, it's been Anaclet, it's been Matt Mutt, it's been Mr Pup, it's even been Daisy once. The fact that Clarabelle was Donald's neighbor there and Jones was later is rather irrelevant.
(2) Of course, I wasn't proposing it as hard evidence; only that since we had evidence of Clarabelle living in Duckburg in stories taking place in "present day", her presence in pre-nephews DD strips wouldn't constitute damning evidence of a Mouseton setting. This is all just theorizing
(3) I wouldn't say it's that relevant, actually. Considering this whole discussion is rooted in Taliaferro strips and Gottfredson serials, we're clearly not in a Don Rosa-style Barks-centric world, so…
(4) Peg-Leg Pete would go on to very often visit Duckburg and antagonize Donald (he was even Donald's Jones-like neighbor in a later cartoon) or Grandma Duck. The man doesn't have fixed home. But either way, while engaging, this theory doesn't quite work out: you'll recall that in Pirate Gold, Donald and the Nephews begin not in their regular suburbian dwelling, but instead living in a seaside inn Donald owns. I could imagine Pirate Gold being an intermediary period between Donald's Mouseton and Duckburg periods, if we assume he did live in Mouseton that late, but he'd already moved out of Mouseton by Pirate Gold, no doubt about it. Also, re: Pete's presence, it means nothing at all regardless of Pete's housings because Pete's not just hanging around the neighborhood, he followed Yellow Beak a long way to Donald's inn.
(1) It appears my knowledge of Donald's neighbors is a bit lacking. It's a shame that there are so many of them; I prefer when things are consistent.
(2) Fair enough.
(3) Maybe "relevant" was the wrong word to use. "Worth noting" is perhaps a more fitting term. However, this whole discussion is dependent on one's view of what's "canonical", I guess. And this varies from person to person. I assume our views on canon are different too, so we're probably not even playing by the same rules, so to speak.
(4) Your points are valid. I have to admit, it's been a while since I've read 'Pirate Gold'. But I think it's fun to try and make sense out of these stories, in order to shape a larger narrative in a sense.
Post by Monkey_Feyerabend on Apr 21, 2018 16:41:15 GMT
Paperopoli and Topolinia are two different towns, located in the same State. And that's it for me. Duckburg is a great cosmopolitan city, with architectonical elements of a more Eastern city, as if NYC was in California. Mouseton is clearly a smaller, yet economically relevant, town. I wish authors would put more cross-references in their stories, without forcing crossovers (although those too could be a bit more recurrent, for my tastes).
As already said in another occasion, me too I like to imagine that Donald lived in Mouseton for a while, so to justify the fact that he is friend with Mickey and Goofy, and possibly add in my very loose notion of headcanon some of those masterpieces by Gottfredson where Donald had a relevant role. (By the way, I believe that Gottfredson-Obsborne's Donald is one the best incarnation of the duck in comics, second only to Barks's rewriting of the character, and maybe Rosa. Something which is not credited enough in my view.)
I can understand and respect those who think that Duckburg and Mouseton are two separate universes. I myself agree that the corpus of Barks's work is so beautiful that it makes sense to imagine it as a complete alternative thing than "the Mickey Universe" coming from the cartoon era. Yet, it is a bit of a pity...
I do not really understand those who think that Mickey, Minnie, Goofy, Horace and the others live in Duckburg. That simply breaks my suspension of disbelief. The mouse would be a public hero, saving the whole town multiple times over decades since he was basically a teen-ager...a town mostly owned by the richest duck in the world...and yet not only they do not meet, but actually not one little narrative element related to the unusual "owner" of the city interacts with the narrative context of the unusual "hero" of the city. Nope, it does not work. And honestly, those translators and (mostly Brazilian) authors who put all those characters in the same town - still, without making them meet - were lazy writers with not much respect for their young readers. There you go, I said it, with all due respect for the traditions of the Disney comics publications of the country where some of you guys grew up.
I do not really understand those who think that Mickey, Minnie, Goofy, Horace and the others live in Duckburg. That simply breaks my suspension of disbelief. The mouse would be a public hero, saving the whole town multiple times over decades since he was basically a teen-ager...a town mostly owned by the richest duck in the world...and yet not only they do not meet, but actually not one little narrative element related to the unusual "owner" of the city interacts with the narrative context of the unusual "hero" of the city.
At least in most stories (I am ignoring the Don Rosa stories), Uncle Scrooge does not seem to specially "own" Duckburg, in the sense of being the owner of most buildings, factories, shops, etc. in the town; yes, there is the recurring gag of Scrooge, in the end of story, discovering that he had some kind of conflict with a business owned by himself, but even this is consistent with most business not being owned by him (after all, if they was, it will not be a surprise).
The possessions of Scrooge seems to be dispersed by all the world, not specially concentrated in Duckburg; attending that many Mickey stories were also over the world, the rarity of interactions is not difficult to imagine. And there are several interactions with Scrooge and/or character usually associated with Scrooge with Mickey and/or characters usually associated with Mickey.
And specially, this is not much more inconsistent that what happens inside of the Ducks-only stories (look the contempt that most people give to one of most probable heirs of the biggest fortune in the world).
Fair enough, but since I wrote last my comment, I've done further research: Not only is Clarabelle present in the Nephews-storyline; she is actually Donald's next door neighbor - a position held by Jones and that other guy from W WDC 83-02 when Donald lives in Duckburg. Also, Goofy is seen walking around town in one of the Nephews-strips. Why would he be walking around in Duckburg if he lives in Mouseton? Do you think Goofy lives in Duckburg too?
According to inducks, Carl Barks used Clarabelle thrice: once in his only Mickey Mouse story, which is irrelevant to our discussion. Another time in 'A Sticky Situation', in which Daisy calls her, only to be ignored. And lastly, in 'Donald's Party', Clarabelle is indeed part of Daisy's Women's Club. Daisy even goes to visit Clarabelle's house, and it seems to be within walking distance. However, I wouldn't say this proves that Clarabelle lived in Duckburg back when HDL first visited Donald; only that since then, she has moved there. Relevant to this discussion is also the fact that Carl Barks didn't write 'Donald's Party', he only drew it.
Maybe Donald lived in Mouseton until 'Donald Duck finds Pirate Gold', which ends with him finding, well, pirate gold? The story features Black Pete, a Mouseton resident. Maybe Donald used the money to finance a move to Duckburg? That's of course just speculation, but since it was the first Barks story, it would make sense to have that connected to the move to Duckburg (which Barks invented).
If the theory that Duckburg and Mouseburgvilletoncity are near to each other (practically "twin cities", then, it would not be unusual to see a character from either city show up in both cities on any, or even EVERY day. I lived in Den Haag, but, I could have gone to Delft on a short tram ride. I could even have traveled to Amsterdam every day, to work or shop. So, why would it seem strange for Goofy or Horace, or Clarabelle to be walking down a Duckburg Street? I have Duckburg and mouseville on opposite sides of Calisota, about 300 miles away. That is STILL close enough to see any character from either city in the other city on any given day.
This is of course true. However, with this in mind, that means that any given story can take place in almost any city or town in the entire world, as long as the location is not specified. This further complicates our debate. I mean, who is to say that Donald didn't live in Goosetown or even Anderville when HD&L first visited? Sure, there's no evidence for him living in those places, but then again, there's no evidence for him not living there either.
With that in mind, in a situation like this I think it's time to utilize Occam's Razor.
Post by Scrooge MacDuck on May 20, 2018 17:05:06 GMT
Somewhat relevant to this topic, I just found another reference to Duckburg as an independant city-state — this time in a French comic: we briefly meet General Tex, "of the Duckburg army's Staff".
Post by Dr Ivo G Bombastus on May 21, 2018 3:02:11 GMT
For me Mouseville/Mouseton and Duckburg are separate cities located within the same county. Following Don Rosa's map of Calisota, Duckburg is where the real world city of Eureka CA would be, while Mouseville takes the place of it's neighbor Arcata.
So they're both coastal cities with similar climates and close enough that characters travel between them relatively freely.
I think of Mouseville as the Gotham to Duckburg's Metropolis. They're both wealthy cities, but whereas Duckburg is the home of modern tycoons and industrialists like $crooge, Mouseville is a community built by the American aristocracy, old families with money going back to the days of the California gold rush- Eli Squench's folk. And Mouseville has more organized crime, but less giant robots and natural disasters than Duckburg.
My timeline has Donald in Mouseville in his teenage years with Mickey, then moving back to Duckburg around 1937. Clarabelle lives in Mouseville and commutes to Duckburg from time to time.
Fair enough, but since I wrote last my comment, I've done further research: Not only is Clarabelle present in the Nephews-storyline; she is actually Donald's next door neighbor - a position held by Jones and that other guy from W WDC 83-02 when Donald lives in Duckburg. Also, Goofy is seen walking around town in one of the Nephews-strips. Why would he be walking around in Duckburg if he lives in Mouseton? Do you think Goofy lives in Duckburg too?[1]
According to inducks, Carl Barks used Clarabelle thrice: once in his only Mickey Mouse story, which is irrelevant to our discussion. Another time in 'A Sticky Situation', in which Daisy calls her, only to be ignored. And lastly, in 'Donald's Party', Clarabelle is indeed part of Daisy's Women's Club. Daisy even goes to visit Clarabelle's house, and it seems to be within walking distance. However, I wouldn't say this proves that Clarabelle lived in Duckburg back when HDL first visited Donald; only that since then, she has moved there. Relevant to this discussion is also the fact that Carl Barks didn't write 'Donald's Party', he only drew it.[2]
Maybe Donald lived in Mouseton until 'Donald Duck finds Pirate Gold', which ends with him finding, well, pirate gold? The story features Black Pete, a Mouseton resident. Maybe Donald used the money to finance a move to Duckburg? That's of course just speculation, but since it was the first Barks story, it would make sense to have that connected to the move to Duckburg (which Barks invented).[3]
[1]In those comics he lived in Mousetown. [2]If Barks has only signed it then he does not have to think about it. And as I said she can also have two houses. [3]He lives there on the coast. Duckburg has ports and is therefore on the coast. Mousetown also have ports. So he can both live there. Pete may have fled from Mousetown. He must live there in / before 1944. And now it is faint to say that there is only the name of a city and they do not necessarily live there. He used to live in Mousetown but when was the switch? In 1931 he was a friend on the farm. In 1934 he had a houseboat at a farm so he used to live in the countryside. Al Taliaferro had stripped that film and therefore thought up Grandma Duck. He was also at a show where Mickey was present.
[1]In those comics he lived in Mousetown. [2]If Barks has only signed it then he does not have to think about it. And as I said she can also have two houses. [3]He lives there on the coast. Duckburg has ports and is therefore on the coast. Mousetown also have ports. So he can both live there. Pete may have fled from Mousetown. He must live there in / before 1944. And now it is faint to say that there is only the name of a city and they do not necessarily live there. He used to live in Mousetown but when was the switch? In 1931 he was a friend on the farm. In 1934 he had a houseboat at a farm so he used to live in the countryside. Al Taliaferro had stripped that film and therefore thought up Grandma Duck. He was also at a show where Mickey was present.
[1] Wooh, I'm glad somebody agrees with me. The only argument for Donald living in Duckburg back then appears to be that his house is similar to his later one(s), which isn't strong enough of an argument to me. His house has never had a consistent look anyways.
[2] By "sign" I assume you mean "draw". The question is then if one considers stories which Barks only drew and not wrote to be part of the "Barks-canon". Of course, this is up to everyone to decide for themselves. Also, I don't know where you said that she can have two houses.
[3] I'm with you until you start using dates. In my view, most stories don't take place in the year they were published. Then Huey, Dewey, and Louie would be in their 20s by the time Magica DeSpell shows up, and they're clearly not. I assume that you're referring to 'Orphan's Benefit ' when talking about the Mickey show. I don't understand how Grandma Duck is relevant, however. I have a theory that the Donald buys the houseboat during the time when he's living in Mouseton. In the strip 'Mickey Mouse and the Seven Ghosts', Mickey, Goofy, and Donald catch seven "ghosts" and are rewarded with $5000 that they split. Donald exclaims "I'll buy a new car- and some clothes- and a house and lot- and a boat- and take a trip around the world [...]". Donald does not appear in anymore Gottfredson-strips after this one, and instead starts appearing in the Taliaferro-strips. My theory is that it is with these money that he bought his Mouseton house (I believe he was still living with uncle Amos up until this point?) and his houseboat, which means that 'The Wise Little Hen' would take place after this story.
[1]In those comics he lived in Mousetown. [2]If Barks has only signed it then he does not have to think about it. And as I said she can also have two houses. [3]He lives there on the coast. Duckburg has ports and is therefore on the coast. Mousetown also have ports. So he can both live there. Pete may have fled from Mousetown. He must live there in / before 1944. And now it is faint to say that there is only the name of a city and they do not necessarily live there. He used to live in Mousetown but when was the switch? In 1931 he was a friend on the farm. In 1934 he had a houseboat at a farm so he used to live in the countryside. Al Taliaferro had stripped that film and therefore thought up Grandma Duck. He was also at a show where Mickey was present.
[1] Wooh, I'm glad somebody agrees with me. The only argument for Donald living in Duckburg back then appears to be that his house is similar to his later one(s), which isn't strong enough of an argument to me. His house has never had a consistent look anyways.
[2] By "sign" I assume you mean "draw". The question is then if one considers stories which Barks only drew and not wrote to be part of the "Barks-canon". Of course, this is up to everyone to decide for themselves. Also, I don't know where you said that she can have two houses.
[3] I'm with you until you start using dates. In my view, most stories don't take place in the year they were published. Then Huey, Dewey, and Louie would be in their 20s by the time Magica DeSpell shows up, and they're clearly not. I assume that you're referring to 'Orphan's Benefit ' when talking about the Mickey show. I don't understand how Grandma Duck is relevant, however. I have a theory that the Donald buys the houseboat during the time when he's living in Mouseton. In the strip 'Mickey Mouse and the Seven Ghosts', Mickey, Goofy, and Donald catch seven "ghosts" and are rewarded with $5000 that they split. Donald exclaims "I'll buy a new car- and some clothes- and a house and lot- and a boat- and take a trip around the world [...]". Donald does not appear in anymore Gottfredson-strips after this one, and instead starts appearing in the Taliaferro-strips. My theory is that it is with these money that he bought his Mouseton house (I believe he was still living with uncle Amos up until this point?) and his houseboat, which means that 'The Wise Little Hen' would take place after this story.
[2]I had something else at [1] first and then I changed it. I had forgotten to change that piece. And indeed I meant drawing, but Google Translate translated it like that. [3]Yes. It can only remain unclear when he moved from Mousetown to Duckburg.
Don Rosa's location of Duckburg has some joke inside it, because this real town's name "Eureka" means "I found something" in Ancient Greek. Well, he found the place where Duckburg is located... Rosa is a duck fan and artist only, he doesn't care about the Mouse universe, so, he likely never said anything about Mouseton being at that bay, too.
Post by Dr Ivo G Bombastus on May 23, 2018 20:15:21 GMT
Mouseville/Mouseton would have to be located near Duckburg for stories featuring characters from both locations to make sense, whether Rosa considered them part of the same world or not.