I do not know how to start, the topic is a bit complicated.
The character of Marley has always been known in Italy, but it did not have much importance except for the purpose of speculating criticism about the author.
Only after the great success of the saga created by Don Rosa that the character of Marley has become important for Italian fans because the saga of Don Rosa contradicted the saga created by Guido Martina (storia e gloria della dinastia dei paperi). Fans to justify the two different sagas have speculated that the Scrooge in the last chapter of the saga of Martina is Marley.
From then on there have been and there are still numerous groups of Italian fans who have yielded Marley to justify many other Martina stories that contradict Don Rosa.
An example is the childhood and youth of Scrooge in the Far West as in "Paperino e la mezzanotte di fuoco" where Scrooge returns to Golden City in Arizona the city where he grew up, when everyone called him Bill Paperon (Bill Scrooge) and therefore for some fans is Marley who grew up there and his full name would be Paperone William de'Paperoni (Scrooge William McDuck).
Moreover, many Italian fans now consider him not as a true brother, but as a twin cousin with his own family tree, a sort of trash in which to insert everything created by Martina that contradicts Don Rosa.
Last Edit: Dec 26, 2018 16:28:39 GMT by xanderares
Post by Scrooge MacDuck on Dec 26, 2018 22:50:12 GMT
I'm aware of the "cousin" speculation, which you'll recognize as the same trick they tried to pull with Gideon. But in both cases, two thirds of the character's appeal is that he's Scrooge's brother. Cut that away and what's left?
It's interesting theorizing, but I file it away in the same dusty cabinet as some DONALDIST ravings (i.e. the Johannes A. Grote family tree). It's a clever thought experiment but based on a premise that few fans would really accept — much like the entire DONALDIST house of cards falls apart the minute somebody says that declaring only Erika Fuchs's translations of Barks is canon, and nothing else, is pretty limiting… despite its pretense of salvaging Martina's stories in the Don Rosa paradigm, the various aspects of this theory go completely against Martina's obvious authorial intent.
The Golden City thing seems particularly stupid because… er… why would Scrooge not correct all of these Golden City people who think he's Marley at any point?
For what it's worth, I have my own theories of how to fit Marley into the wider, Don-Rosa-friendly canon, which don't require that anyone contradict anyone's positive authorial intent (the worst it does is contradict Don Rosa's implicit intent that Marley doesn't exist, but that's a given). Mezzanotte is a little tougher, but my initial pronouncement (bearing in mind that I haven't as yet read it) is that we're going to have to forget the idea that he literally grew up there, and assume that it is instead one of the towns he lived in in his youth, like Pizen Bluff and Auropolis. Perhaps "Bill Paperon" should be rendered as "Buck McDuck", as per The Buckaroo of the Badlands.
I'm aware of the "cousin" speculation, which you'll recognize as the same trick they tried to pull with Gideon. But in both cases, two thirds of the character's appeal is that he's Scrooge's brother. Cut that away and what's left?
It's interesting theorizing, but I file it away in the same dusty cabinet as some DONALDIST ravings (i.e. the Johannes A. Grote family tree). It's a clever thought experiment but based on a premise that few fans would really accept — much like the entire DONALDIST house of cards falls apart the minute somebody says that declaring only Erika Fuchs's translations of Barks is canon, and nothing else, is pretty limiting… despite its pretense of salvaging Martina's stories in the Don Rosa paradigm, the various aspects of this theory go completely against Martina's obvious authorial intent.
I think I wrote badly what I meant. I do not want to peruse the fandom that want Marley as a Scrooge substitute for all the old uncomfortable stories written by Martina. I created this tread to avoid having to explain in the same tread the same things, that many of the information on Marley on the net are distorted by old fandom and friction between the Italian fans of Don Rosa and those of Guido Martina.
Since Marley has the same name and the same appearance as Scrooge* Italian fans after the nineties see in him a trick to legitimize old stories. Also as a way for publishers in the future if they wanted to do a retcon operation of Martina's finest stories.
Also as a way for publishers in the future if they wanted to do a retcon operation of Martina's finest stories.
I do not want to talk about theories how to make a story out of continuity, I want to explain why a disposable character, almost redundant, has become important for fans who only a few years before ignored him, unlike Gideon who has both before the saga of Don Rosa has always kept the same number of fans.
* The name often mentioned Papirone was fanmade only to better index the character into the search engines.
For what it's worth, I have my own theories of how to fit Marley into the wider, Don-Rosa-friendly canon, which don't require that anyone contradict anyone's positive authorial intent (the worst it does is contradict Don Rosa's implicit intent that Marley doesn't exist, but that's a given).
I know your theory and I think is very good, but I cannot say that other are totaly wrong. There are theory were Marley it's a character like Huge McDuck, a duck who pretends to be Scrooge's brother just to have a family (in the story him and Scrooge don't meet and Scrooge only define him as brother in a sarcastic phrase).
We cannot even talk with certainty of the authorial intent, because Martina it's the more strange example of censorship from the publisher.
I can say your theory is the more modern and precise than the other.
Has Marley appeared more than once? If he's a oneshot I honestly doubt Rosa even knew he existed.
He only appeared once. But whether Rosa knew of him is irrelevant — it is 100 percent sure that he wouldn't have cared if he'd known.
No, I do get that; it's well known Rosa only considered Barks' stuff and of course older characters Barks himself used.
So Marley is the subject of some pretty serious debate as to how to work him into continuity in the Italian fandom? Fascinating. I'm very interested in fandom culture.
Post by Scrooge MacDuck on Dec 28, 2018 11:25:57 GMT
Scrooge's twin brother from "Paperino e l'uomo del West". We had a thread on here some time ago to try and find a good English name for him, and settled on Marley McDuck.
By the way, in cases like these, the Wiki's your friend…
Has Marley appeared more than once? If he's a oneshot I honestly doubt Rosa even knew he existed.
He only appeared once. But whether Rosa knew of him is irrelevant — it is 100 percent sure that he wouldn't have cared if he'd known.
It is absolutely right, if we want to see from an objective point of view is a character of which Rosa or any other author would find irrelevant, only the fandom has made it important.
Martina actually used the story as a tribute to his favorite novel "The King of the Golden River" by John Ruskin, tribute that reappear in "Paperino e la mezzanotte di fuoco" and "Zio Paperone e le criminose imprese dei Gufo-robot" where he reuses the idea of the double philanthropist who gives all his gold to charity.
Last Edit: Dec 30, 2018 18:52:37 GMT by xanderares
Even in the French translation, he doesn't have a proper given name. Locals also call him "Picsou" (French equivalent of "McDuck"), nickname him "Mains Percées" ("hands with holes") while Donald and HDL refer to him as "l'oncle du 'tic'" ("the Uncle of the 'tick'"), because he says he was born at the tick of the clock, while regular Scrooge was born at the tock of the clock.
--- Gaucelm de Villaret gaucelm@gmail.com --- gaucelm.blogspot.fr twitter.com/GothHelm --- facebook.com/gaucelm
Even in the French translation, he doesn't have a proper given name. Locals also call him "Picsou" (French equivalent of "McDuck"), nickname him "Mains Percées" ("hands with holes") while Donald and HDL refer to him as "l'oncle du 'tic'" ("the Uncle of the 'tick'"), because he says he was born at the tick of the clock, while regular Scrooge was born at the tock of the clock.
Even in Italian it is so in the original story they call him Paperone of the Tic and Paperone of the Tac, Martina played a lot on the name Paperone, not for nothing chose to translate the name Scrooge into Italian with the name of a famous and generous black friar as well as bishop.
Even in the French translation, he doesn't have a proper given name. Locals also call him "Picsou" (French equivalent of "McDuck"), nickname him "Mains Percées" ("hands with holes") while Donald and HDL refer to him as "l'oncle du 'tic'" ("the Uncle of the 'tick'"), because he says he was born at the tick of the clock, while regular Scrooge was born at the tock of the clock.
Even in Italian it is so in the original story they call him Paperone of the Tic and Paperone of the Tac, Martina played a lot on the name Paperone, not for nothing chose to translate the name Scrooge into Italian with the name of a famous and generous black friar as well as bishop.
WHAT?? He was named after this bishop, Paperone de Paperoni, this whole time??
--- Gaucelm de Villaret gaucelm@gmail.com --- gaucelm.blogspot.fr twitter.com/GothHelm --- facebook.com/gaucelm
Even in Italian it is so in the original story they call him Paperone of the Tic and Paperone of the Tac, Martina played a lot on the name Paperone, not for nothing chose to translate the name Scrooge into Italian with the name of a famous and generous black friar as well as bishop.
WHAT?? He was named after this bishop, Paperone de Paperoni, this whole time??
Yes, since its first appearance in Italy, its name has never changed, it has always been translated as Paperon de Paperoni.