It is unfortunate that Rosa did not have this information back in the 90's. I am sure he would have been more than happy to put FD far away from Barks's canonic ducks in his tree.
That's true! I wonder if Egmont would have let him do that though, even with the evidence to back it up
They might have, I get the impression they just wanted Fethry on there somewhere, not that they insisted that the relationship between Donald and Fethry be close. It was Rosa who wanted his tree to be as compact as possible, leading to decisions like Whitewater being Donald's first cousin and (still unofficially and non-canonically IMHO) Ludwig and Matilda being married, in direct contradiction to previously established facts and references.
As concerns Cornelius, I do approve the idea of him being related to Donald. It makes so much sense on a meta-level: Duckburg exists in fiction because of the existence of a fictional character named Donald Duck. So making the fictional founder of the city an ancestor of Donald is a nice idea. I suspect that's the reason why Rosa and others before him went for it. (If I am not mistaken, Rosa stated something of the kind in his explanation of the tree from WDCS that someone posted here in the past.)
I get what you're saying. But by that logic, every time a fictional "universe" is created, it's main character should be related to his or her city's founder. Bruce Wayne would be related to Gotham City's founder, Clark Kent would be related to Metropolis' founder, Super Mario would be related to the Mushroom Kingdom's (or Toad Town's) founder. This way, no main character can ever be a true every-man.
I don't mind it too much in a few exceptions (I don't hate the Donald-Cornelius relation, I'd just prefer if it wasn't there). But as a general rule, I don't like it.
Thanks to Gerstein for the explanation. But it remains that there is a difference in a page that I saw between a US version and the script. I left a few hours ago the country where I have that volume, so I cannot be more precise now. Maybe it was just some minor changes in the line.
Look upthread—I've just now expanded my explanation to add a little more about how (and why) we changed some scripts.
Note: I cited "You Can Take the Guy Out of the Country, But..." as the only Fethry that we had retranslated because the original English script was largely lost. There was also one non-Fethry Kinney, S 67008 "The Roundabout Rally," where the English script was entirely lost; we needed to run it for continuity's sake, though, so Joe Torcivia and I retranslated it from Danish and Italian versions for the IDW printing, with Joe adding a really nice 1960s American flavor.
And another question: in stories that have Cornelius as Grandma's grandfather, has it ever been stated for sure if she personally knew him?
Not that I'm aware of. But it's unlikely she would have, taking into account that she has been shown to have mostly lived with the Gadwell side of her family (grandparents included) in her childhood.
And another question: in stories that have Cornelius as Grandma's grandfather, has it ever been stated for sure if she personally knew him?
Not that I'm aware of. But it's unlikely she would have, taking into account that she has been shown to have mostly lived with the Gadwell side of her family (grandparents included) in her childhood.
You are right. In the stories about the youth of Elvira, she shows with her motherly relatives, especially in Brazilian and Italian stories in which she refers to a matriarchal lineage of descent.
As concerns Cornelius, I do approve the idea of him being related to Donald. It makes so much sense on a meta-level: Duckburg exists in fiction because of the existence of a fictional character named Donald Duck. So making the fictional founder of the city an ancestor of Donald is a nice idea. I suspect that's the reason why Rosa and others before him went for it. (If I am not mistaken, Rosa stated something of the kind in his explanation of the tree from WDCS that someone posted here in the past.)
I get what you're saying. But by that logic, every time a fictional "universe" is created, it's main character should be related to his or her city's founder. Bruce Wayne would be related to Gotham City's founder, Clark Kent would be related to Metropolis' founder, Super Mario would be related to the Mushroom Kingdom's (or Toad Town's) founder. This way, no main character can ever be a true every-man.
I don't mind it too much in a few exceptions (I don't hate the Donald-Cornelius relation, I'd just prefer if it wasn't there). But as a general rule, I don't like it.
Yes I agree, if everybody does it it becomes just stupid!
In an Italian volume on Fethry half page of an American version is shown right next to the original storyboard by Kinney. And the two English dialogues are not exactly the same. So they re-dialogued them, even when they knew the original lines by Kinney. Now, how much they changed the dialogues is something I do no know.
Long ago, various S-code contributors told me that management had required the S-code dialogues to be very simple, for easy translation; that authors struggled to stay simple even when they would have preferred not to; and that sometimes, editors modified the results to make the results even simpler. This made for blander English, so we were encouraged by Disney—in the early 2000s—to pep the stories up a bit in spots where they seemed bland.
I was hesitant to alter Kinney a lot, because he's great! We did slightly tighten up dialogue, or add bits of slang, when what was there seemed unusually stiff and wooden by Kinney's standards (a typical sign of 1960s forced simplification). We also added sound effects where the Burbank scripts conspicuously used none, even in scenes of noisy impact where space was left for a sound effect in the art.
To avoid confusing new readers—because the Gemstone comics were meant as all-ages publications first—we did standardize a few elements where Kinney was inconsistent: his earliest stories at times call Duckburg "Duckville," name the hillbilly "Hog Haid" Moe, and make Tabby a female cat. Kinney's scripts start referencing a male Tabby in late 1964 and Hard Haid in 1965; I'm presuming because by then, Kinney had noticed Hubbard drawing Moe as a human ("Hog Haid" suggests a pigface) and Tabby as an obvious tomcat.
That's very interesting! So, after 35 years translating Gottfredson's crazy regional slangs, they thought that editors abroad would have struggled in translating a couple of fancy words by Dick Kinney?!? Italian translators in the 60's and 70's must have translated very literally those bland S-coded scripts. Because I can assure you that the original versions from Topolino (still reprint today every now and then!) sound pretty bland in Italian too.
About the use of the word "Duckville", the absence of the 313 and other stuff, I have the impression that Kinney took the cartoon universe in which Donald lived as basis for his work much more than Barks's comics universe (if he ever read it).
Okay, now that we've established that Fethry isn't Donald's first cousin, I thought it would be fun to speculate on alternate ways they could be related. I think anything more than second cousins would be too distantly related for my taste, so I'll go with that. This would mean that Fethry is probably the grandson of a brother of Humperdink. I'm not aware of too many characters that are identified as grand-uncles of Donald, but there's at least the Elders of the Duck Clan from Strobl's 'The Giant of Duckburg' (W DD 111-01).
'The Life and Times of Scrooge McDuck 10' (D 93227) established that Eider Duck is indeed Donald's father's brother. This means that we need to identify another character as Fethry's real father. But who? My first instinct was to put Moby Duck here, but I've read somewhere that he and Fethry has had a number of adventures together in Italian comics. I know next to nothing about these stories, but if Moby and Fethry were father and son, then I guess they would have mentioned that at some point, and then the community would know about it already.
So instead I suggest another Strobl'character, Upsy Duck, as Fethry's father. At least he resembles Fethry visually, and personality-wise it wouldn't be a stretch either. And as Lulubelle Loon seems to have been designed with Fethry's wild look in mind, I'd keep her as his mother.
'The Life and Times of Scrooge McDuck 10' (D 93227) established that Eider Duck is indeed Donald's father's brother. This means that we need to identify another character as Fethry's real father.
—I don't really understand your reasoning, here. If we're starting to imagine that Fethry has a completely different parentage than he does in Don Rosa's work, then why use another part of Don Rosa's work as part of your new theory? This reminds of nothing short of Dangerous Currency, which somehow took place in a world where The Black Knight and Escape from Forbidden Valley had happened, but, for some reason, not The Lost Charts of Columbus.
My reasoning is simply that information from stories are more important to me than reference material, such as family trees. We have been shown that Quackmore and Eider are brothers, but we haven't been shown that Eider is Fethry and Whitewater's father. I love the fact that Rosa's tree exists - it is one of the reasons I got into Duck comics again in my teens, but I no longer see it as some holy document.
Of course, when talking about a universe as huge as the Donald Ducks comics, there is eventually bound to be contradictions between stories. So then I guess it's up to each one of us to pick and choose what we each think is the most important facts and the most "real". I'd prefer if there were some sort of canon with concrete rules and facts, but that's obviously not the case with Duck comics.
Unfortunately I haven't read 'Dangerous Currency', so I can't comment on your simile.
I'm unfamiliar with Upsy Duck, but based on the information and images available online, he does seem like a great candidate to be Fethry's father. However, the wikis show that Upsy is Donald's "great uncle". Thus, he's a generation older than Humperdink. Let's say Upsy is Humperdink's father's brother. That makes Fethry Humperdink's first cousin, Quackmore's first cousin once removed, and Donald's first cousin twice removed (is that correct?). So Donald and Fethry are still "cousins", distantly related, which works perfectly. Upsy might have been much younger than his brother (Humerdink's father), gotten married late and had Fethry even later, allowing Donald and Fethry to be closer in age. I agree that Lulubelle Loon should stay Fethry's mother, and Upsy's wife. Okay, this is my new headcanon (unless there's something in the solitary story that Upsy appears in that contradicts it; I haven't read that story).
Now where should we put Whitewater on this new updated family tree?
EDIT: Upon reflection, Donald's "great uncle" Upsy could indeed be (a) Humperdink's brother or (b) Humperdink's first cousin. If Fethry were Upsy's son, that would make Fethry (a) Quackmore's first cousin or (b) Quackmore's first cousin twice removed, and Donald's (a) first cousin once removed or (b) his father's cousin twice removed (not sure if this relationship has a name). But any of these relationships between Donald and Fethry would probably be abbreviated to "cousin", especially if they are close in age.
I'm unfamiliar with Upsy Duck, but based on the information and images available online, he does seem like a great candidate to be Fethry's father. However, the wikis show that Upsy is Donald's "great uncle". Thus, he's a generation older than Humperdink. Let's say Upsy is Humperdink's father's brother. That makes Fethry Humperdink's first cousin, Quackmore's first cousin once removed, and Donald's first cousin twice removed (is that correct?). So Donald and Fethry are still "cousins", distantly related, which works perfectly. Upsy might have been much younger than his brother (Humerdink's father), gotten married late and had Fethry even later, allowing Donald and Fethry to be closer in age. I agree that Lulubelle Loon should stay Fethry's mother, and Upsy's wife. Okay, this is my new headcanon (unless there's something in the solitary story that Upsy appears in that contradicts it; I haven't read that story).
Now where should we put Whitewater on this new updated family tree?
EDIT: Upon reflection, Donald's "great uncle" Upsy could indeed be (a) Humperdink's brother or (b) Humperdink's first cousin. If Fethry were Upsy's son, that would make Fethry (a) Quackmore's first cousin or (b) Quackmore's first cousin twice removed, and Donald's (a) first cousin once removed or (b) his father's cousin twice removed (not sure if this relationship has a name). But any of these relationships between Donald and Fethry would probably be abbreviated to "cousin", especially if they are close in age.
Yes, your great-uncle is indeed of the same generation as your grandparent. So, Humperdink's brother, if we want to maintain "Duck" as the male-line last name the characters have in common. Humperdink's first cousin would not be Donald's great-uncle (though of course people often use these terms loosely in family life). LP rightly says that if Fethry is Donald's second cousin (and they both got the last name Duck through the same family line), he would be the grandson of a brother of Humperdink (thus, they would share a set of great-grandparents). So, if I understand him correctly, LP is newly locating Upsy as (not technically Donald's uncle but) the son of a brother of Humperdink. Thus Upsy would be to Donald "my father's cousin" (often this person would be loosely called "uncle"), and Upsy's son Fethry would be Donald's second cousin.
Seems like a fine idea to me. We should come up with a name for the great-uncle, Humperdink's brother, for ease of reference. His son would be Upsy, who married Lulubelle Loon and gave the world Fethry.
In terms of messing with Rosa's tree: I stick as close to Rosa's world as I can in most cases, but we know that Rosa didn't actually want to include Fethry on his tree at all, disliking the character. So I personally have no problem with relocating Fethry in my mostly-Rosa-constructed scheme of things. And Lulubelle Loon was clearly designed by Rosa as Fethry's mother and the source of his wild hair and his looniness, so I'm happy to relocate her along with Fethry.
By the way, just so that we'll share the same terminology: I believe the "once removed" refers only to a generational step *down* in the family tree. My first cousin's child is my first cousin once removed. But to that person, I am "Mom's/Dad's cousin." If the "once removed" went up as well as down, then your aunt would be your first cousin once removed, and we can't have that!
Even if it doesn't quite match up with the Barksian "facts" I've always really liked the concept of the Duck-Loon family. Whitewater, who appears in a single story, is portrayed as an eccentric guy from the neck of the woods. "Uncle Eider" only gets a single one-panel mention in a completely different story, but he sends Donald a falcon - which suggests he, too, is an eccentric guy in tune with nature. Makes perfect sense for them to be father and son, and Fethry of course is the epitome of eccentric, so that fits too. I'd actually like them to appear in a story together at some point.
In terms of building the family tree, Rosa clearly wanted it to be as uncomplicated as possible, as Baar Baar Jinx mentioned. That's why Gladstone's aunt Susiebelle Swan wasn't included, for example - he didn't want to create a buch of extraneous characters just to include unimportant relatives. Note how, with Ludwig gone, Matilda is the only "useless" character on the entire tree - she is neither an established or mentioned character nor anyone's parent. (She only exists because she was Gladstone's adoptive mother on Barks' original tree, who was retained when that backstory was dropped.) And while it doesn't make sense for Whitewater to be Donald's first cousin, present-day Fethry clearly is, and since he's the more important character he should take priority. (I know Rosa didn't want to include him at all, but first he went out of his way to make Lulubelle look like him and then he also included him on his second tree, so if he didn't want me to like him being there he should've made less of an effort )
Whether Upsy is Donald's uncle or great uncle is actually quite vague in the only story he appears. Upsy is first identified as Huey, Louie and Dewey's great uncle. Donald then refers to him as "Uncle Upsy". This would mean that Upsy would belong to the same generation as Quackmore. However, Upsy is also referred to as Donald's great uncle twice in the story, which would mean he belongs to Grandma and Humperdink's generation.
Upsy is always talked about in the past tense, so it can be assumed that he is dead, which might be why the wiki (I don't know which one) went with the "Donald's great uncle" option. But I for one prefer to think of him as part of the Quackmore-generation, mostly so that he can be Fethry's dad.