Post by Baar Baar Jinx on Nov 7, 2019 14:21:02 GMT
Discussing Miss Penny Wise seems to be the comics fandom's equivalent of politics or religion for some reason ... but anyway, here's another resurrected DCF thread to get a fresh discussion going!
Review Or Die 2013-04-06, 21:24:20
I do want to state for the record though: Rosa disregarded a LOT of Barks concepts that he just thought were, well, stupid. Space stories, the sliding timeline, Bolivar appearing without an origin story, the hourglass story, Mrs. Pennywise (I believe that was her name, the one with the promissory note from Scrooge), among others. Heck, he just outright screwed up with "The Golden River", with Scrooge outright stating that he was a rotten kid, and the Life and Times saying otherwise.
On top of that, he didn't remain internally consistent within his own stories, either, either through simple contradictions or conflicting motivations.
He's still my favorite comic book author, and it's generally Rosa and Barks' versions of the Ducks I find interesting, not the idea of the characters in and of themselves. But it is an ENORMOUS mistake to think that their styles are at all synonymous with each other, or that their storytelling styles are synchronized. They complement each other in many ways, creating a broader view of the characters and universe than one of the pair brings on their own, but... nope. Rosa definitely does not follow Barks' style or canon, even if he built on it.
I do want to state for the record though: Rosa disregarded a LOT of Barks concepts that he just thought were, well, stupid. Space stories, the sliding timeline, Bolivar appearing without an origin story, the hourglass story, Mrs. Pennywise (I believe that was her name, the one with the promissory note from Scrooge), among others. Heck, he just outright screwed up with "The Golden River", with Scrooge outright stating that he was a rotten kid, and the Life and Times saying otherwise.
On top of that, he didn't remain internally consistent within his own stories, either, either through simple contradictions or conflicting motivations.
He's still my favorite comic book author, and it's generally Rosa and Barks' versions of the Ducks I find interesting, not the idea of the characters in and of themselves. But it is an ENORMOUS mistake to think that their styles are at all synonymous with each other, or that their storytelling styles are synchronized. They complement each other in many ways, creating a broader view of the characters and universe than one of the pair brings on their own, but... nope. Rosa definitely does not follow Barks' style or canon, even if he built on it.
Mr. M 2013-04-06, 23:47:54
Long a go I use to consider Bark and Rosa to be the one true canon but as more time wet by I realise that I love so many non-Barks and Rosa characters and stories that It dosen't matter.
Plus - we may have some fans consider characters like Fethry or Brigitha as not part of the canon but at the same time Arpin Lusene isn't a Barks character so it would be hypocrisy seeing his real and they aren't.
Each artist has his own unique canon. Rosa just so happend only sticking to what Barks created... then agian he used Jose Carioca and Panchito who Barks never used or mentioned he like... or for example Rosa used Von Drake who Barks hated (from what I recall) and only used him once when editor ask him to...
So yhe, there is no real canon other then super-basic stuff like Scrooge was born poor but now his rich etc.
Long a go I use to consider Bark and Rosa to be the one true canon but as more time wet by I realise that I love so many non-Barks and Rosa characters and stories that It dosen't matter.
Plus - we may have some fans consider characters like Fethry or Brigitha as not part of the canon but at the same time Arpin Lusene isn't a Barks character so it would be hypocrisy seeing his real and they aren't.
Each artist has his own unique canon. Rosa just so happend only sticking to what Barks created... then agian he used Jose Carioca and Panchito who Barks never used or mentioned he like... or for example Rosa used Von Drake who Barks hated (from what I recall) and only used him once when editor ask him to...
So yhe, there is no real canon other then super-basic stuff like Scrooge was born poor but now his rich etc.
Baar Baar Jinx 2013-04-07, 02:28:42
I found this succinct old thread from another forum:
bb.mcdrake.nl/engdisney/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=113
Reading that last post, which collects all of Rosa's comments about Miss Penny Wise on the DCML in chronological order, I can't escape the feeling that Rosa was simply initially unaware of this character (and assumed that the name referred to Miss Quackfaster), then chose to attribute the fact that she is never mentioned in L&T to his opinion that she is too"off-the-wall" to be taken seriously. I wonder if he would have found a way to incorporate her into his version of the McDuck mythos if he had known about her when he was writing L&T. Could she somehow be connected to Scrooge's shameful behavior in the events recounted in "Voodoo Hoodoo"? Or another less-than-honorable business deal he may have been involved with? Rosa doesn't like the idea that Scrooge and Goldie ever had eyes for anyone else, but could she indeed have been a romantic partner? I think there's potential for a great story here.
I found this succinct old thread from another forum:
bb.mcdrake.nl/engdisney/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=113
Reading that last post, which collects all of Rosa's comments about Miss Penny Wise on the DCML in chronological order, I can't escape the feeling that Rosa was simply initially unaware of this character (and assumed that the name referred to Miss Quackfaster), then chose to attribute the fact that she is never mentioned in L&T to his opinion that she is too"off-the-wall" to be taken seriously. I wonder if he would have found a way to incorporate her into his version of the McDuck mythos if he had known about her when he was writing L&T. Could she somehow be connected to Scrooge's shameful behavior in the events recounted in "Voodoo Hoodoo"? Or another less-than-honorable business deal he may have been involved with? Rosa doesn't like the idea that Scrooge and Goldie ever had eyes for anyone else, but could she indeed have been a romantic partner? I think there's potential for a great story here.
Robb_K 2013-04-07, 04:17:58
It would, indeed, have been quite a story, if Scrooge McDuck were to have had an affair and consumated a sexual act out-of-species! Perhaps he even broke some laws of sodomy, which even existed at the time. Would the statute of limitations apply, or would he be found guilty of breaking an existing law, and be sent to prison? I don't believe that the comments relating to the letter that Miss penny Wise possesses involves a debt. Barks merely stated words that logically implied that she could use the note to "ruin him", and that she could gain his entire fortune from revealing its contents. What could be written in that letter that could be so damaging to Scrooge that she could blackmail him for his ENTIRE fortune, and he would turn it over willingly??? What horrible act had he committed against the laws of man (or nature)?
I don't believe it was merely an old debt. Surely Scrooge would have paid off any debt, as he has been proven to be honest and responsible, and to always do things "on the square". For him to pay his entire fortune to a blackmailer, he must have done something so horrendous, that he wants no human to know about it. Perhaps he was a Devil-worshipper, who delighted in murdering and then eating human victims (an eager cannibal)?
OR, perhaps it is best to not try to delve into some areas that are not crucial to telling Scrooge's history. For once, I agree with Don Rosa, that the events in the "Flour Salesman Story" related to Miss Penny wise and her letter that could ruin Scrooge, were only used because they were needed for that one story, and don't fit in well with his character or history (as defined and developed by Barks).
It would, indeed, have been quite a story, if Scrooge McDuck were to have had an affair and consumated a sexual act out-of-species! Perhaps he even broke some laws of sodomy, which even existed at the time. Would the statute of limitations apply, or would he be found guilty of breaking an existing law, and be sent to prison? I don't believe that the comments relating to the letter that Miss penny Wise possesses involves a debt. Barks merely stated words that logically implied that she could use the note to "ruin him", and that she could gain his entire fortune from revealing its contents. What could be written in that letter that could be so damaging to Scrooge that she could blackmail him for his ENTIRE fortune, and he would turn it over willingly??? What horrible act had he committed against the laws of man (or nature)?
I don't believe it was merely an old debt. Surely Scrooge would have paid off any debt, as he has been proven to be honest and responsible, and to always do things "on the square". For him to pay his entire fortune to a blackmailer, he must have done something so horrendous, that he wants no human to know about it. Perhaps he was a Devil-worshipper, who delighted in murdering and then eating human victims (an eager cannibal)?
OR, perhaps it is best to not try to delve into some areas that are not crucial to telling Scrooge's history. For once, I agree with Don Rosa, that the events in the "Flour Salesman Story" related to Miss Penny wise and her letter that could ruin Scrooge, were only used because they were needed for that one story, and don't fit in well with his character or history (as defined and developed by Barks).
Review Or Die 2013-04-07, 04:58:32
Talking about personal canon, based on the phrasing I actually always thought it was a literal note. And that based on some of his characterization regarding poetry in Last Sled to Dawson...
Said note contained a terrible love poem he wrote about Goldie.
Talking about personal canon, based on the phrasing I actually always thought it was a literal note. And that based on some of his characterization regarding poetry in Last Sled to Dawson...
Said note contained a terrible love poem he wrote about Goldie.
ramapith 2013-04-07, 14:25:05
Would it really be that scandalous? Think of the ongoing relationship between Horace Horsecollar and Clarabelle Cow, or Elmer Elephant and Tillie Tiger, or Oswald the Lucky Rabbit and his cat girlfriend. The 1920s-40s were a profoundly racist era, yet these inter-species romances were depicted quite casually. IMHO, in Duckburg/Mouseton reality, species seems to be a variable on the same level as hair color or height among humans.
Robb_K: It would, indeed, have been quite a story, if Scrooge McDuck were to have had an affair and consumated a sexual act out-of-species!
Would it really be that scandalous? Think of the ongoing relationship between Horace Horsecollar and Clarabelle Cow, or Elmer Elephant and Tillie Tiger, or Oswald the Lucky Rabbit and his cat girlfriend. The 1920s-40s were a profoundly racist era, yet these inter-species romances were depicted quite casually. IMHO, in Duckburg/Mouseton reality, species seems to be a variable on the same level as hair color or height among humans.
Baar Baar Jinx 2013-04-07, 15:22:55
It wouldn't have to be something quite so deviant. Surely, in his long career as a businessman, Scrooge could have been involved in a financial deal that he's not proud of? Maybe he was dragged into it, was misled, or showed poor judgement; regardless, we do know that Scrooge does often care about his public image. It could also be something personal but not criminal. Maybe Miss Wise somehow stumbled upon Rumpus' mother's letter to her sister Vera (how's that for tying together the Barks/Rosa/Van Horn universes)? As for "paying his entire fortune " to a blackmailer, we have also seen how Scrooge is prone to indulge in histrionics and hyperbole when he perceives that any of his money is at risk (calling himself a "poor old man" when he loses the contents of his money bin, when that clearly can only be a fraction of his assets). Plus, Miss Wise does not seem like the kind who is interested in using any power she has over Scrooge for her personal gain, based on her sole portrayal in that Barks ten pager. She seems to be on good terms with him, and behaves like an old friend. So Scrooge was probably making a mountain of a molehill, as he often does.
Well, yes, you're certainly entitled to that opinion. But if Rosa gets to pick and choose what parts of the Barks universe to ignore and what parts to consider canon, so does everyone else. I'm merely saying that the whole situation with Miss Penny Wise is not necessarily incompatible with Rosa's own version of the universe (based on Barks' groundwork), and I disagree with him that the whole concept is "stupid". As I pointed out, it seems more to me as if he somehow overlooked that particular story when he was writing L&T, and then decided retrospectively that it was unworthy of consideration the whole time. I'm still not convinced that he wouldn't have found a way to include her if he had known about her beforehand.
I do think it's odd that Barks would tease us with this "secret" that Scrooge has and then not expand on it. Not something he generally did.
I agree, as we've discussed on other threads, "species" in the Duckburg/Mouseton world seems to be akin to race in ours. And crossbreeding also seems possible (the fact that we've seen background characters like ducks with ears and chickens with human feet confirms this). So the idea of a McDuck-Wise relationship is not ridiculous on the face of it. But Rosa has stated (on the DCML, as quoted on the thread I linked to above) that he cannot countenance a scenario in which Scrooge or Goldie ever loved someone other than each other, so in his universe, it is impossible.
Robb_K: For him to pay his entire fortune to a blackmailer, he must have done something so horrendous, that he wants no human to know about it. Perhaps he was a Devil-worshipper, who delighted in murdering and then eating human victims (an eager cannibal)?
It wouldn't have to be something quite so deviant. Surely, in his long career as a businessman, Scrooge could have been involved in a financial deal that he's not proud of? Maybe he was dragged into it, was misled, or showed poor judgement; regardless, we do know that Scrooge does often care about his public image. It could also be something personal but not criminal. Maybe Miss Wise somehow stumbled upon Rumpus' mother's letter to her sister Vera (how's that for tying together the Barks/Rosa/Van Horn universes)? As for "paying his entire fortune " to a blackmailer, we have also seen how Scrooge is prone to indulge in histrionics and hyperbole when he perceives that any of his money is at risk (calling himself a "poor old man" when he loses the contents of his money bin, when that clearly can only be a fraction of his assets). Plus, Miss Wise does not seem like the kind who is interested in using any power she has over Scrooge for her personal gain, based on her sole portrayal in that Barks ten pager. She seems to be on good terms with him, and behaves like an old friend. So Scrooge was probably making a mountain of a molehill, as he often does.
Robb_K: OR, perhaps it is best to not try to delve into some areas that are not crucial to telling Scrooge's history. For once, I agree with Don Rosa, that the events in the "Flour Salesman Story" related to Miss Penny wise and her letter that could ruin Scrooge, were only used because they were needed for that one story, and don't fit in well with his character or history (as defined and developed by Barks).
Well, yes, you're certainly entitled to that opinion. But if Rosa gets to pick and choose what parts of the Barks universe to ignore and what parts to consider canon, so does everyone else. I'm merely saying that the whole situation with Miss Penny Wise is not necessarily incompatible with Rosa's own version of the universe (based on Barks' groundwork), and I disagree with him that the whole concept is "stupid". As I pointed out, it seems more to me as if he somehow overlooked that particular story when he was writing L&T, and then decided retrospectively that it was unworthy of consideration the whole time. I'm still not convinced that he wouldn't have found a way to include her if he had known about her beforehand.
I do think it's odd that Barks would tease us with this "secret" that Scrooge has and then not expand on it. Not something he generally did.
ramapith: Would it really be that scandalous? Think of the ongoing relationship between Horace Horsecollar and Clarabelle Cow, or Elmer Elephant and Tillie Tiger, or Oswald the Lucky Rabbit and his cat girlfriend. The 1920s-40s were a profoundly racist era, yet these inter-species romances were depicted quite casually. IMHO, in Duckburg/Mouseton reality, species seems to be a variable on the same level as hair color or height among humans.
I agree, as we've discussed on other threads, "species" in the Duckburg/Mouseton world seems to be akin to race in ours. And crossbreeding also seems possible (the fact that we've seen background characters like ducks with ears and chickens with human feet confirms this). So the idea of a McDuck-Wise relationship is not ridiculous on the face of it. But Rosa has stated (on the DCML, as quoted on the thread I linked to above) that he cannot countenance a scenario in which Scrooge or Goldie ever loved someone other than each other, so in his universe, it is impossible.
Lars Jensen 2013-04-07, 16:56:24
I'm not sure it can be called "tease". Barks needed Miss Penny Wise to live in a regular-sized house, so it could convincingly be converted into a gingerbread house by Donald's screw-up. Barks also needed a reason why it was very, very important for Scrooge not to upset her. The possibility of losing his fortune would explain why it was so important to Scrooge. Since Miss Wise lived in an ordinary house, she presumably wasn't a multi-trillionaire... so how, exactly, would she be able to cause Scrooge losing his fortune? Barks's solution: she has a note that somehow can make it happen. End of explanation.
It's only a tease if you believe there's a greater, intriguing backstory behind that note and that Barks had the necessary number of pages to tell that backstory, but chose not to. In reality, it was a toss-away idea in a 10-pager.
Baar Baar Jinx: I do think it's odd that Barks would tease us with this "secret" that Scrooge has and then not expand on it.
It's only a tease if you believe there's a greater, intriguing backstory behind that note and that Barks had the necessary number of pages to tell that backstory, but chose not to. In reality, it was a toss-away idea in a 10-pager.
Baar Baar Jinx 2013-04-07, 17:45:04
As throwaway lines, not integral to the plot, yes ("This is like the time I ..." or "I used to sell ABC to XYZ"), but in this case, the fact that Miss Wise has something on Scrooge is the crux on which the whole story pivots, and it is left unresolved. I agree that the story does not suffer due to this, but it's rare for Barks to not expand on such plot devices.
Lars Jensen: Barks sprinkled nuggets like this throughout his stories, whenever Scrooge would make a toss-away reference to some old exploit.
As throwaway lines, not integral to the plot, yes ("This is like the time I ..." or "I used to sell ABC to XYZ"), but in this case, the fact that Miss Wise has something on Scrooge is the crux on which the whole story pivots, and it is left unresolved. I agree that the story does not suffer due to this, but it's rare for Barks to not expand on such plot devices.
Matilda 2013-04-07, 21:02:26
On Penny Wise....I agree with Lars Jenson's explanation of why Barks gave her financial power over Scrooge in the way that he did, for the sake of this one joke in this one ten-pager. There's a build-up, as each of Donald's clients has more power to threaten Scrooge's financial well-being, and the final client has to be someone who (1) has the most such power of all of them and (2) *really doesn't care* about money. So it can't be another bigwig...just an ordinary person who somehow has a hook into Scrooge's money. That said, I don't feel it's necessary to believe that she actually *could* "foreclose on his entire fortune"--that might be the kind of hyperbole Scrooge can indulge in whenever he feels he's going to lose a chunk of money.
And Baar Baar Jinx, while I think you and I have the perfect right to accept PW as a real character in our personal Duckburg, I don't agree that Rosa might have done so had he remembered the Flour story earlier in the process of working on the L&T. I think it's clear that Rosa thinks it is completely incompatible with Scrooge's character that he would have ever put himself in debt to someone after paying off Soapy Slick (any debt at all, not to mention a debt that would imperil his entire fortune). So Rosa relegated the PW story to the pile of Barksian "facts" (the pile with an hourglass in it) that he chose to ignore. It probably helped him ignore it that the story has such an over-the-top, unrealistic joke of an ending.
Since Barks himself was not concerned with continuity, I feel that those of us who have fun with imagining/constructing a continuity for ourselves are free to cobble together whatever narrative pieces we please in doing so. I do also hope that we all understand that these are personal canons, and there's no sense fighting over them. My own is mostly Rosa-aligned, but there are characters and stories he might not approve that are included in it, and they fit perfectly well in my own scheme of things, thank you very much. Scrooge dated (though didn't fall deeply in love with) Belle Duck in the Mississippi riverboat days, and he competed with (Transgaard's) Big Barnsmell in the Klondike, and he somehow got himself in debt for a chunk of money (but not his entire fortune, he was over-dramatizing as is his wont) to Penny Wise back in Duckburg. Perhaps he tried to pay it off soon after, but she kept telling him, "Oh, no, really, it was nothing, don't even think about it"--because she really didn't care about money; but he can't believe that, so he has continued to be afraid that one day she would call the debt in with all its interest. (Actually, she probably threw away the note shortly after he gave it to her.) Personally, I like the idea that an old woman of modest means could claim a chunk of Scrooge's fortune but doesn't because she has everything she wants in life.
On Penny Wise....I agree with Lars Jenson's explanation of why Barks gave her financial power over Scrooge in the way that he did, for the sake of this one joke in this one ten-pager. There's a build-up, as each of Donald's clients has more power to threaten Scrooge's financial well-being, and the final client has to be someone who (1) has the most such power of all of them and (2) *really doesn't care* about money. So it can't be another bigwig...just an ordinary person who somehow has a hook into Scrooge's money. That said, I don't feel it's necessary to believe that she actually *could* "foreclose on his entire fortune"--that might be the kind of hyperbole Scrooge can indulge in whenever he feels he's going to lose a chunk of money.
And Baar Baar Jinx, while I think you and I have the perfect right to accept PW as a real character in our personal Duckburg, I don't agree that Rosa might have done so had he remembered the Flour story earlier in the process of working on the L&T. I think it's clear that Rosa thinks it is completely incompatible with Scrooge's character that he would have ever put himself in debt to someone after paying off Soapy Slick (any debt at all, not to mention a debt that would imperil his entire fortune). So Rosa relegated the PW story to the pile of Barksian "facts" (the pile with an hourglass in it) that he chose to ignore. It probably helped him ignore it that the story has such an over-the-top, unrealistic joke of an ending.
Since Barks himself was not concerned with continuity, I feel that those of us who have fun with imagining/constructing a continuity for ourselves are free to cobble together whatever narrative pieces we please in doing so. I do also hope that we all understand that these are personal canons, and there's no sense fighting over them. My own is mostly Rosa-aligned, but there are characters and stories he might not approve that are included in it, and they fit perfectly well in my own scheme of things, thank you very much. Scrooge dated (though didn't fall deeply in love with) Belle Duck in the Mississippi riverboat days, and he competed with (Transgaard's) Big Barnsmell in the Klondike, and he somehow got himself in debt for a chunk of money (but not his entire fortune, he was over-dramatizing as is his wont) to Penny Wise back in Duckburg. Perhaps he tried to pay it off soon after, but she kept telling him, "Oh, no, really, it was nothing, don't even think about it"--because she really didn't care about money; but he can't believe that, so he has continued to be afraid that one day she would call the debt in with all its interest. (Actually, she probably threw away the note shortly after he gave it to her.) Personally, I like the idea that an old woman of modest means could claim a chunk of Scrooge's fortune but doesn't because she has everything she wants in life.
Lars Jensen 2013-04-07, 21:51:08
Since this is a fanfic thread, here's the fanfic-iest explanation I can think of:
Years ago, Scrooge was diagnosed with cancer. While being treated in hospital, he was tended to by a caring nurse: Miss Penny Wise. Scrooge was scared he would die but at the same time so grateful for Miss Wise's care that he gave her a written note, stating he would donate his entire fortune to her if he survived. After he got cured, he quietly "forgot" about the note... and since then has been worried about Miss Wise cashing in on his promise.
If cancer isn't serious enough, we can combine it with another disease.
Since this is a fanfic thread, here's the fanfic-iest explanation I can think of:
Years ago, Scrooge was diagnosed with cancer. While being treated in hospital, he was tended to by a caring nurse: Miss Penny Wise. Scrooge was scared he would die but at the same time so grateful for Miss Wise's care that he gave her a written note, stating he would donate his entire fortune to her if he survived. After he got cured, he quietly "forgot" about the note... and since then has been worried about Miss Wise cashing in on his promise.
If cancer isn't serious enough, we can combine it with another disease.
Robb_K 2013-04-07, 22:17:42
I don't think what Miss Penny Wise has on Scrooge can be that "concrete". Scrooge is an upstanding man of his word. He may be a cheapskate, and put off (DELAY) the pain of giving up money. But, if he signs an agreement, he will not-so-long after first delaying, choose to live up to his end of the agreement. He is not dishonest.
It must be some kind of misunderstanding or matter of interpretation that, perhaps a judge would find in her favour, OR that Scrooge's public (market population) or his potential business clients would misinterpret, and thus, ruin Scrooge's ability to continue making money.
Again, the problems involved in figuring out the scenario that makes this work, is the reason why writers attempting to tell the "back story" probably CAN'T be undertaken.
I don't think what Miss Penny Wise has on Scrooge can be that "concrete". Scrooge is an upstanding man of his word. He may be a cheapskate, and put off (DELAY) the pain of giving up money. But, if he signs an agreement, he will not-so-long after first delaying, choose to live up to his end of the agreement. He is not dishonest.
It must be some kind of misunderstanding or matter of interpretation that, perhaps a judge would find in her favour, OR that Scrooge's public (market population) or his potential business clients would misinterpret, and thus, ruin Scrooge's ability to continue making money.
Again, the problems involved in figuring out the scenario that makes this work, is the reason why writers attempting to tell the "back story" probably CAN'T be undertaken.
GeoX 2013-04-07, 23:34:55
Well...except that you and I both know that I could link to a whole bunch of examples from Barks of him being pretty unambiguously dishonest. If you want to claim that he's fundamentally honest all the time, you have to excise quite a bit of material. Certainly, that's what Rosa does.
Well...except that you and I both know that I could link to a whole bunch of examples from Barks of him being pretty unambiguously dishonest. If you want to claim that he's fundamentally honest all the time, you have to excise quite a bit of material. Certainly, that's what Rosa does.
Robb_K 2013-04-07, 23:51:16
Scrooge may not keep his word (to the "letter of the law" to a villain (corrupt business rival or national leader, etc. But he would not sign an agreement in good faith with an honest person, and turn around and never keep his word. Please give me an example of when Barks had him do such a thing.
Scrooge may not keep his word (to the "letter of the law" to a villain (corrupt business rival or national leader, etc. But he would not sign an agreement in good faith with an honest person, and turn around and never keep his word. Please give me an example of when Barks had him do such a thing.
GeoX 2013-04-08, 00:22:41
I mean, gosh.
Scrooge tricks Donald into doing salvage work for him for free?
Scrooge tries to trick Donald into selling him his house by creating a monster?
Scrooge tricks Donald and Jones into destroying their houses so they'll sell cheap? Scrooge tricks a king into giving him a barrel of gold for a stove?.
Just say when. I mean, okay, if you're defining "honest" in incredibly narrow terms, then I guess Scrooge could qualify, but really, how honest is that?
I mean, gosh.
Scrooge tricks Donald into doing salvage work for him for free?
Scrooge tries to trick Donald into selling him his house by creating a monster?
Scrooge tricks Donald and Jones into destroying their houses so they'll sell cheap? Scrooge tricks a king into giving him a barrel of gold for a stove?.
Just say when. I mean, okay, if you're defining "honest" in incredibly narrow terms, then I guess Scrooge could qualify, but really, how honest is that?
Matilda 2013-04-08, 00:26:28
In any case, Rob, your objection may rule out Lars' fanfic explanation, but it doesn't rule out my general scenario, n'est-ce pas? If she destroyed/threw away the note shortly after Scrooge gave it to her, then she can't tear it up in front of him when he comes to pay her back, and I can imagine that Scrooge would then worry that she must really be hanging onto it to sock him with the amount due plus interest later.
In any case, Rob, your objection may rule out Lars' fanfic explanation, but it doesn't rule out my general scenario, n'est-ce pas? If she destroyed/threw away the note shortly after Scrooge gave it to her, then she can't tear it up in front of him when he comes to pay her back, and I can imagine that Scrooge would then worry that she must really be hanging onto it to sock him with the amount due plus interest later.
Robb_K 2013-04-08, 03:08:48
I think that Scrooge would not act like he does towards Donald towards total strangers or his tenants, unless they were crooks or villains or cheating others in some way. I think he feels he can mistreat Donald to teach him lessons about the way he should behave related to money and work, and he also feels entitled to do that because he often supports Donald with work when no one else will hire him. Whenever Donald is desperate, Scrooge helps him, even if he tries to take advantage of him in doing that. i don't think he would do that to a poor widow with children. He might trick and abuse a lazy "goldbrick" tenant, who is trying to get away without paying his rent, but he wouldn't try to scare a normal homeowner out of his house just to build a factory somewhere. He feels he can do that to Donald, because, deep down, he feels that he will probably semi-reluctantly leave some of his riches to Donald when he dies.
I think that Scrooge would not act like he does towards Donald towards total strangers or his tenants, unless they were crooks or villains or cheating others in some way. I think he feels he can mistreat Donald to teach him lessons about the way he should behave related to money and work, and he also feels entitled to do that because he often supports Donald with work when no one else will hire him. Whenever Donald is desperate, Scrooge helps him, even if he tries to take advantage of him in doing that. i don't think he would do that to a poor widow with children. He might trick and abuse a lazy "goldbrick" tenant, who is trying to get away without paying his rent, but he wouldn't try to scare a normal homeowner out of his house just to build a factory somewhere. He feels he can do that to Donald, because, deep down, he feels that he will probably semi-reluctantly leave some of his riches to Donald when he dies.
GeoX 2013-04-08, 04:11:36
I wouldn't really disagree with any of that. In fact, I've often thought that Scrooge's general dickishness on the page must be only part of the story; he probably helps out his nephews in small/big ways more than he'd like anyone to know, and he probably just surreptitiously overlooks a lot of the debts Donald supposedly owes him.
BUUUUUT ...
at the same time, you can't really deny that this is us putting our own spins on things. It's quite obvious that in the above stories, Barks wasn't thinking about any of this; within the individual stories, Scrooge was being a dick just 'cause. Point being, we have to do a little extrapolating of ours to come to this particular interpretation of his character. We're not really doing anything different than Rosa did in this regard.
I wouldn't really disagree with any of that. In fact, I've often thought that Scrooge's general dickishness on the page must be only part of the story; he probably helps out his nephews in small/big ways more than he'd like anyone to know, and he probably just surreptitiously overlooks a lot of the debts Donald supposedly owes him.
BUUUUUT ...
at the same time, you can't really deny that this is us putting our own spins on things. It's quite obvious that in the above stories, Barks wasn't thinking about any of this; within the individual stories, Scrooge was being a dick just 'cause. Point being, we have to do a little extrapolating of ours to come to this particular interpretation of his character. We're not really doing anything different than Rosa did in this regard.
Robb_K 2013-04-08, 06:02:32
You are correct here. Assumptions have to be made, because Barks didn't spell everything out clearly. Don Rosa made assumptions and I've made assumptions. All us chillen's made us some assumptions. If I criticised some of Don Rosa's assumptions, it is because I disagree with those assumptions. It's a matter of personal interpretation and taste.
Having been somewhat more than an acquaintance with Carl Barks (as was Don Rosa, as well), and having discussed Scrooge's character with Barks for at least several hours (if you add up the time in 3 meetings and several letters, and a few telephone calls), I have my own idea of what Barks had in mind for Scrooge's character and motivations. I believe that he would NOT have agreed with an honest person to do something and then deliberately NOT follow through by not keeping his word. Nothing anyone here has written has convinced me to change my mind. The Scrooge I know from Barks would probably NEVER have agreed to give his entire fortune to a nurse, EVEN if she promised to cure him of cancer. But if he signed such a paper in a weak moment, the nurse would have been a scoundral taking advantage of a woozy, drugged old man, and all bets would be off (because Scrooge's morals ALLOW him to welsh on agreements made with villains who are cheating him. But, IF he made any kind of agreement while in full consciousness and with all his faculties, in good faith, with a decent, honest person in good faith, he would keep that agreement. If it would be so very distasteful for him to keep his word in that case, he might approach the decent person, and ask her or him if they might find it in their hearts to tear up the agreement or soften the terms. But if that person would refuse, Scrooge would feel compelled to keep his word and follow through.
If NOT, I dare say, that he would NOT be an acceptable Disney protagonist character. Maybe I'm old-fashioned, and come from a bygone era. But, we from the 1940s and '50s thought people who lie, cheat, steal, don't keep their word, willingly refuse to do their part for society(their fellow man) CANNOT be a good role model, and cannot be a hero (or SHOULD not be a hero) to children. I was raised by my grandparents, who came from the 1880s and 1890s, and drove horses and wagons, and I also knew some people who were born before the US Civil War and before people had last (family) names in their countries. So, I am even more old fashioned than my old age would indicate.
You are correct here. Assumptions have to be made, because Barks didn't spell everything out clearly. Don Rosa made assumptions and I've made assumptions. All us chillen's made us some assumptions. If I criticised some of Don Rosa's assumptions, it is because I disagree with those assumptions. It's a matter of personal interpretation and taste.
Having been somewhat more than an acquaintance with Carl Barks (as was Don Rosa, as well), and having discussed Scrooge's character with Barks for at least several hours (if you add up the time in 3 meetings and several letters, and a few telephone calls), I have my own idea of what Barks had in mind for Scrooge's character and motivations. I believe that he would NOT have agreed with an honest person to do something and then deliberately NOT follow through by not keeping his word. Nothing anyone here has written has convinced me to change my mind. The Scrooge I know from Barks would probably NEVER have agreed to give his entire fortune to a nurse, EVEN if she promised to cure him of cancer. But if he signed such a paper in a weak moment, the nurse would have been a scoundral taking advantage of a woozy, drugged old man, and all bets would be off (because Scrooge's morals ALLOW him to welsh on agreements made with villains who are cheating him. But, IF he made any kind of agreement while in full consciousness and with all his faculties, in good faith, with a decent, honest person in good faith, he would keep that agreement. If it would be so very distasteful for him to keep his word in that case, he might approach the decent person, and ask her or him if they might find it in their hearts to tear up the agreement or soften the terms. But if that person would refuse, Scrooge would feel compelled to keep his word and follow through.
If NOT, I dare say, that he would NOT be an acceptable Disney protagonist character. Maybe I'm old-fashioned, and come from a bygone era. But, we from the 1940s and '50s thought people who lie, cheat, steal, don't keep their word, willingly refuse to do their part for society(their fellow man) CANNOT be a good role model, and cannot be a hero (or SHOULD not be a hero) to children. I was raised by my grandparents, who came from the 1880s and 1890s, and drove horses and wagons, and I also knew some people who were born before the US Civil War and before people had last (family) names in their countries. So, I am even more old fashioned than my old age would indicate.
Lars Jensen 2013-04-08, 11:21:28
Rob, note that my post was written as "fanfic". In fanfic, characters' personalities are sometimes bent to serve whatever plot the author wants to tell; in this case to explain (in an overly dramatic way) why Scrooge might lose his entire fortune to Miss Penny Wise.
Rob, note that my post was written as "fanfic". In fanfic, characters' personalities are sometimes bent to serve whatever plot the author wants to tell; in this case to explain (in an overly dramatic way) why Scrooge might lose his entire fortune to Miss Penny Wise.
Mr. M 2013-04-08, 19:57:38
Maybe Scrooge ment he earn his money in a very boring way when he told he made it 'square" ?
[unlike some cool cats who earn it the grovy way]
Maybe Scrooge ment he earn his money in a very boring way when he told he made it 'square" ?
[unlike some cool cats who earn it the grovy way]
