List of species in the Duck- and Mouseverse (MEAS-3)

[That Duckfan]

I've been meaning to ask this question for a while: what kinds of species have been documented in the Duck- and Mouse universes? I try to keep these "Wiki threads" a bit spread out from one another, but in trying to develop my own characters I'm sometimes looking for information that falls a bit inbetween Inducks and the Wiki. (Oh, if only I had a way to combine the two!) Maybe we can put something like this together ourselves. So for example:

Species: duck (waterfowl)
Examples: Donald Duck, Uncle Scrooge, Fethry Duck, Ludwig von Drake
Common type: all sorts, often underdogs, impulsive

Species: pig
Examples: Argus McSwine, Duckburg mayor, Peter Pig
Common type: often rich, often fat, sometimes villainous

Species: dingo (dog-like)
Examples: Goofy, Indiana Goof
Common type: free spirits, original thinkers (archetype: Goofy)

Species: human (caricature)
Examples: Carl Barks, Federico Fellini, Theodore Roosevelt
Common type: caricatures of real people

Species: human (human-like)
Examples: Madame XXX, Rolando the Vaquero
Common type: all sorts, human-looking characters

Species: cat
Examples: Pete, Trudy, Portis/Plottigat
Common type: often villainous, often heavies

Species: dognose (dog-like)
Example: Jones, the Beagle Boys, most of Duckburg
Common type: often less agreeable

Ideally, we'd be able to group all characters listed on Inducks into different species, but given that there's hundreds of them and dozens of us, that's a mighty tall order...

Note the MEAS-3 stamp at the top: I'm looking for characters that have human characteristics. So Pluto, Chip and Dale, and Tabby would have to go elsewhere (maybe I could add in different scales of anthropomorphism?). I've been thinking about this question before, but I was just watching the dancing ostriches from Fantasia, and wondered how they were different from Hortense in Donald's Ostrich. I put Duck- and Mouseverse in the title because I'm not looking for, say, Stitch, or Zootopia animals. That said, I'm not sure what to do with Dumbo and the like: Disney characters who cross over into the main 'verse on occasion. Man, Inducks could sure use a map of sorts...

I don't think there's a need to go full Linnaeus, but I feel like there could be a method in it. Just not sure how to distinguish between human nose + dog ears, chicken + dog ears, different looking chicken (Clara Cluck and Gyro the same species? I don't think so), Taliaferro dognose, etc.
Anybody got ideas?

[Baar Baar Jinx]

This is the kind of thread I've been thinking of starting myself for while (and which we've sort of alluded to before), especially with regard to the dognose characters. I subscribe to the filter theory (like Rosa does for the most part), in that these characters are all human but have animal-like physical features because of the "lens" that we view them through (in the same way, that, for example, the Simpsons characters don't look remotely human but we accept them as such), so I don't think their "species" defines their personalities necessarily, but it's still an interesting topic to me.

Just a reminder of the latest version of the MEAS from another thread for reference:

MEAS-1 (non-intelligent animals existing primarily in a human world): essentially animals that are treated like animals (although may exhibit some human characteristics like facial expressions, ability to comprehend human situations, etc). Unclothed, no props (glasses, cane, etc).
1A: No internal monologue (e.g., Pluto)
1B: Has internal monologue (e.g., Tabby)

MEAS-2 (intelligent animals existing primarily in an animal world): have complex societies, communicate with language and may wear clothes/props. Usually maintain their scale relative to humans (mice and chipmunks are small, etc.)
2A: cannot (or do not) communicate with humans (e.g., Rescue Rangers-Chip 'n' Dale, 101 Dalmatians)
2B: can communicate with humans (but are always treated by humans as animals) (e.g., regular Chip 'n' Dale [that communicate with Donald and Mickey], Jaq and Gus-Gus)

MEAS-3 (intelligent animals existing in a primarily human world): are integrated into human society but their animal characteristics are prominent and often drive their motivations and story plots (e.g., Looney Tunes characters for the most part, Li'l Wolf and the Three Little Pigs). They may be much bigger than their species should be, relative to humans.

For the above MEAS levels, human characters cannot replace the animal characters.

MEAS-4 characters (almost-humans in a human world): act primarily like humans but maintain some animal-like characteristics, such as having feathers, laying eggs, etc., e.g., DuckTales '17 Ducks)

MEAS-5 (essentially humans in a human world): Behave and are treated as humans in every way. Humans can replace the animal characters without affecting the universe in a significant way, except perhaps for a few throwaway jokes.
5A: essentially humans but often referred to as belonging to a particular animal species ("richest duck in the world", "that meddlesome mouse")
5B: never referred to or treated as anything other than human (e.g., Goofy, O'Hara)

So we're looking for MEAS-3 and above (although in the Disney comics world, the Big Bad Wolf/Three Little Pigs are the only example of MEAS-3 that I can think of).

For any such species classification to make sense, I agree we should probably limit ourselves to the comics-verse rather than include all Disney properties like movies, etc.

Also, one category I'd add to the initial species list: dognoses that are human except for the little black nose (i.e., human ears, no muzzle), like the historical figures in Rosa's work.

[LP]

Species: Mouse
Examples: Mickey Mouse, Minnie Mouse

Species: Rat (or other rodent)
Examples: Ruffhouse Rat, Montmorency (Mortimer) Rodent

Species: Elephant
Examples: I'm not familiar with the character myself, but I read somewhere on this forum that the mayor of Mouseton was at one point portrayed as an anthropomorphic elephant, so there's that.

Species: Cow
Examples: Clarabelle Cow and her family

Species: Horse
Examples: Horace Horsecollar and his family

Species: Elk
Examples: two members of Clan McElk from The Hound of the Whiskervilles.

Species: Sentient Apemen
Examples: Professors Ecks, Doublex, and Triplex

Species: Wolf
Examples: The big and bad one, the small and friendlier one.

Then there's a bunch of aliens, various monsters, mythological creatures and probably a few gods. I don't know how far down the rabbit hole this is supposed to go. Oh, and
Species: Rabbit
Examples: Oswald the Lucky Rabbit

[LP]

Species: Rooster
Examples: Panchito Pistolas, Rockhead Rooster

Species: Parrot
Examples: José Carioca, Yellowbeak

Species: Eagle
Examples: Emil Eagle

Species: Seagull
Examples: Garvey Gull (Sonny Seagull)

Then there's also Goofy's pet raven or crow or whatever, which later becomes a full on character... I don't recall his name though.

[Matilda]

Jun 6, 2020 13:12:28 GMT LP said:

Species: Rooster
Examples: Panchito Pistolas, Rockhead Rooster

Species: Parrot
Examples: José Carioca

I’d say that “rooster” is the same species as “chicken”, so Clara Cluck would be in the same group as Panchito and Rockhead. As was noted above, though, Gyro doesn’t fit into the same group. Gyro is to “chicken” as a dognose is to “dog“... more or less. He could be in a “birdbeak” category, along with some Chickadees etc who have bird beaks that are not duck bills.

[Baar Baar Jinx]

Personally, I'd create main categories and subcategories, such as:

Category: Birds

Subcategories:

Waterfowl such as Ducks, Geese and Ganders (with sub-subcategories: "classic" ducks like Donald and Scrooge who are short and pants-less, "atypical" ducks like Jolly Ollie Eiderduck and Launchpad who are larger and wear pants regularly)

Non-waterfowl: Parrots (José), Chickens/Roosters (classic ones like Panchito and Clara Cluck, and atypical ones like Gyro), Owls, etc.

Category: Dognoses (by far the biggest and most varied)

Subcategories:

Very dog-like with canine faces and possibly even tails (Goofy, Big Bad and Li'l Bad Wolf)

Moderately dog-like, have black noses, muzzles, floppy ears, but no tails (Jones, Beagle Boys, O'Hara)

Almost-human except for little black noses (human ears, no muzzles, like Rosa's historical figures)

Category: Humans (very rare), most of whom are extremely caricatured (Mim, Barks, Peewegahs), differ from almost-human dognoses only in having human noses; may have four fingers per hand.

Category: Pigs

Subcategories: MEAS-3 "classic pigs" (Three Little Pigs) and "atypical" pigs (pig mayors, pig-faced villains)

Category: Others (you'd have to lump Mice like Mickey, Cats like Pete, Horses and Cows, etc. and all the atypical anthropomorphisms here since they're all quite rare).

EDIT: Humans probably don't deserve their own category, and should be included under "Others", but I guess it's just species-specific conceit to categorize them separately.

[That Duckfan]

Jun 6, 2020 12:37:02 GMT Baar Baar Jinx said:

This is the kind of thread I've been thinking of starting myself for while (and which we've sort of alluded to before), especially with regard to the dognose characters. I subscribe to the filter theory (like Rosa does for the most part), in that these characters are all human but have animal-like physical features because of the "lens" that we view them through (in the same way, that, for example, the Simpsons characters don't look remotely human but we accept them as such), so I don't think their "species" defines their personalities necessarily, but it's still an interesting topic to me.

Just a reminder of the latest version of the MEAS from another thread for reference:

MEAS-1 (non-intelligent animals existing primarily in a human world): essentially animals that are treated like animals (although may exhibit some human characteristics like facial expressions, ability to comprehend human situations, etc). Unclothed, no props (glasses, cane, etc).
1A: No internal monologue (e.g., Pluto)
1A: Has internal monologue (e.g., Tabby)

MEAS-2 (intelligent animals existing primarily in an animal world): have complex societies, communicate with language and may wear clothes/props. Usually maintain their scale relative to humans (mice and chipmunks are small, etc.)
2A: cannot (or do not) communicate with humans (e.g., Rescue Rangers-Chip 'n' Dale, 101 Dalmatians)
2B: can communicate with humans (but are always treated by humans as animals) (e.g., regular Chip 'n' Dale [that communicate with Donald and Mickey], Jaq and Gus-Gus)

MEAS-3 (intelligent animals existing in a primarily human world): are integrated into human society but their animal characteristics are prominent and often drive their motivations and story plots (e.g., Looney Tunes characters for the most part, Li'l Wolf and the Three Little Pigs). They may be much bigger than their species should be, relative to humans.

For the above MEAS levels, human characters cannot replace the animal characters.

MEAS-4 characters (almost-humans in a human world): act primarily like humans but maintain some animal-like characteristics, such as having feathers, laying eggs, etc., e.g., DuckTales '17 Ducks)

MEAS-5 (essentially humans in a human world): Behave and are treated as humans in every way. Humans can replace the animal characters without affecting the universe in a significant way, except perhaps for a few throwaway jokes.
5A: essentially humans but often referred to as belonging to a particular animal species ("richest duck in the world", "that meddlesome mouse")
5B: never referred to or treated as anything other than human (e.g., Goofy, O'Hara)

So we're looking for MEAS-3 and above (although in the Disney comics world, the Big Bad Wolf/Three Little Pigs are the only example of MEAS-3 that I can think of).

For any such species classification to make sense, I agree we should probably limit ourselves to the comics-verse rather than include all Disney properties like movies, etc.

Also, one category I'd add to the initial species list: dognoses that are human except for the little black nose (i.e., human ears, no muzzle), like the historical figures in Rosa's work.

Where is the MEAS scale from? I first came across it in the Lumpers vs. splitters thread, I assumed it had something to do universes.

I mainly want to get a sense of what kinds of animals are out there in the funny animal 'verse, so that I can draw from them or add to them (as is often done). Some kind of relation tree may be possible later.

I suppose we can get the full range of MEAS creatures, but my main focus is on level 4. I'd like to suggest some nuances in the sense of scale: most Duckburgians (dognoses, chickens, and pigs) are human-sized, with most mice and ducks being significantly smaller. Even within those species, we have variation: I'd say Kay K of DoubleDuck fame or Mortimer Mouse edge significantly more to the human side than Daisy Duck and Mickey Mouse. But I get a sense that you're more out for behavior, and I'm more for appearance?

[Baar Baar Jinx]

The original Emslie scale was proposed by Pete Emslie, veteran Disney artist (he didn't name it after himself, but it's come to be called such to credit him).

Emslie, however, approached it from an animators' point of view, so it was "modified" (hence the "Modified Emslie Anthroporphism Scale") into the MEAS to be better suited to the comics-verse, as a collective effort by many members on this forum (its birthplace). Yes, it deals more with the behavior/attitudes and situations the characters find themselves in, rather than their appearance, which is what you're proposing to do with this new scale, which is also worth developing. For example, both Donald and Kay K are MEAS-5s, but they probably fall in different categories (or at least subcategories) on the "species" scale.

BTW, the MEAS with 5 levels as posted above is the most current version; on other threads including the Lumper-Splitter thread (which I just re-read), the reference is to an older version with just 4 levels. The separation of the old 4th level into two separate levels was thought to be less confusing. Although some who believe that the Ducks lay eggs and have feathers that they can pluck off their bodies may feel that Donald and Scrooge are actually MEAS-4s, rather than 5s. But while you could perhaps see Daisy laying eggs, could you imagine Kay K doing that?

[RobbK1]

I thought that the consensus here was that the Calisota was all a single species Human or other, that they can all mate with each other, and have healthy offspring. Given that, why are you trying to separate them into different "species"? Given that, the groups would really be just different breeding groups, (e.g. different Haplogroups, differing in DNA - different strngths of different DNA markers). Personally, I think of the doglike, mouselike, and fowllike sentient beings in "The Duck and Mouse Universes" ARE different species. Despite inter-species "dating", I don't believe those different groups can interbreed. This implies that unlike our real World, the alternative world of Disney Comics had several different species have reached the level of being sentient, while our own World has had only Humans do so.

[LP]

I prefer to think that cross-species breeding in the Duck- and Mouse-universe works like in BoJack Horseman - If Clarabelle Cow and Horace Horsecollar were to have offspring, it would materialize in the shape of either a cow or a horse (anthropomorphic, of course). I don't think they would be unable to breed because of their being of different species, and I don't think that fact would result in a mutated monstrous cow-horse-hybrid either.

I can't think of much that supports this stance, but it seems to make the most sense to me. Although, in the George Geef-cartoons, Geef is an anthropomorphic dog, while his wife is seemingly human. Yet, their son is a dog. This son retains his father's doggi-ness, yet no physical human characteristics; all he seems to get from his mother is his hair color. 

[Baar Baar Jinx]

To me, they *are* all the same species (i.e., humans); I guess in my mind this exercise is an attempt to characterize the forms the "lens" gives these characters. But we also see Bird characters with floppy dog ears, and other Bird characters like Gyro with human feet, etc., which may be evidence of interbreeding (or the lens' attempt to show us that, if you subscribe to the filter theory).

[LP]

I just realized that Goof Troop has Pete (cat) and Peggy (dog) as parents to Pete Jr. (cat) and Pistol (dog), which supports my theory. 

Though, to be fair, neither the Geef-cartoons nor Goof Troop necessarily work with the same rules as the comics.

[RobbK1]

Jun 6, 2020 21:16:00 GMT Baar Baar Jinx said:

To me, they *are* all the same species (i.e., humans); I guess in my mind this exercise is an attempt to characterize the forms the "lens" gives these characters. But we also  see Bird characters with human ears, and other Bird characters like Gyro with human feet, etc., which may be evidence of interbreeding (or the lens' attempt to show us that, if you subscribe to the filter theory).

Then just don't call them different "species".  just call them different "breeding groups" or character type groupings, implying that the "founders" of the Disney Comic book Universe, portrayed them in those various styles, after given real world animal types, for a reason (even though, we can only guess a few of the reasons for a very few of the characters being in one group or another.

[LP]

At any rate, I believe the point of this thread is to catalog the species from an out-of-universe perspective; not an in-universe one. Donald and neighbor Jones are clearly different species to the audience, for example.

So, while interesting, the question of the ability for horses and cows to interbreed isn't really relevant. The same is true for whether everyone is really human.

[Baar Baar Jinx]

Jun 6, 2020 21:22:09 GMT RobbK1 said:

Then just don't call them different "species".  just call them different "breeding groups" or character type groupings, implying that the "founders" of the Disney Comic book Universe, portrayed them in those various styles, after given real world animal types, for a reason (even though, we can only guess a few of the reasons for a very few of the characters being in one group or another.

I believe I'm in a minority when it comes to believing in the "filter" theory (I know drakeborough has said he subscribes to it, and so does Rosa except when he wants to cover up the fact that he overlooked Miss Penny Wise while writing Life of Scrooge), so while I'd be happy using a term other than "species", most would probably find it silly.