Don Rosa timeline: when does Scrooge return to Duckburg?

[That Duckfan]

Here's a little piece of timeline theory that I've been teasing for a while now. One of the most difficult dates to ascertain is the climax of The Empire-Builder of Calisota, when Scrooge finally breaks off all contact with his family. Is it 1930? 1931? 1932? 1933? Rosa contradicts himself in various places, so that each of these may be correct. Let's have each make their case.

Short-cuts:
Invader: The Invader of Fort Duckburg (LoS 10)
Builder: The Empire-Builder of Calisota (LoS 11)
Recluse: The Recluse of McDuck Manor (LoS 12)
Crown: The Crown of the Crusader Kings
Letter: A Letter from Home, or The Old Castle's Other Secret

The case for 1930
The original intended date, as can be seen in the portrait insert. The event is referred to in-text several times.
"Then finally, after 27 years on the road, he made a long delayed journey..." (Narrator, Builder 21.4) This presumably refers to the last time we see Scrooge in Duckburg, at the end of Invader in spring 1903.
"Just who do you think you are, Scroogey? How dare you treat us like this after we haven't seen or heard from you in 23 years?!" (Hortense, Builder 22.6) This presumably refers to Scrooge's Blackest Day, which took place in... 1907? Or was it 1909?
"Few details are known of McDuck's ensuing life! The sisters, the only known witnesses to his rise to riches, have long since disappeared from public life! They were last seen in this newsreel footage taken 17 years ago!!" (News on the March narration, Recluse 3.1) We know this to take place in 1947 -- or at least, that was Rosa's intent. And honestly, for the sake of my sanity, let's keep it there. There's entirely too many stories to cram in between it and 1952's A Little Something Special.

But that Hortense quote throws up questions. She's in a state where we can be pretty sure she knows exactly how long it's been since she last saw Scrooge. When did Scrooge go to Africa, anyway?

The case for 1931
Can we date Scrooge's Blackest Day to context clues? That is, are there any real life dates (you know, the ones Rosa loves to stick to) that can help us? Well, there's the aftermath to contend with.
"Over the next year Scrooge was continually side-tracked on his way home! He sold lawnmowers in the Sahara, salt in Egypt, rainhats in Aden, and so on and so on, from Turkey to Holland! While selling wind to the windmill makers along the Zuyder Zee, Scrooge learned of a unique opportunity... So, taking one last detour on his way to America, Scrooge stopped off in Greenland for a rendez-vous on the polar ice cap..." (Narrator, Builder 13.6-13.8)
"Hallo! Are you Robert Peary?" "Yes! What do you want?" (Scrooge and Peary, Builder 13.8)
Now, we know the real life date of Peary's trek to the North Pole (which is depicted in the following pages): it was early April, 1909.
But if his date with Peary took place in 1909, doesn't that back-date the Blackest Day to 1908? Add 23 years to that, and you end up with a date of 1931. (Scrooge leaving Duckburg happens off-screen in this case, in 1904.)

There's evidence to suggest that Rosa was simply wrong in the case of Peary. Rosa himself makes a case for 1909 being the date of Scrooge's Blackest Day in the story notes, as a substitute for Barks' original date of "seventy years ago" (1879) in Voodoo Hoodoo. Rosa shaves off a couple of decades, but sticks to the ---9 date, as can be seen in the portrait insert above.

A few minutes later, on the polar ice caps...
"Wow! I've been granted the royal audience I've sought for years! I've got to rush to Russia by the shortest route!" (Scrooge, Builder, 14.10)
"Some months later, a certain haberdasher in St. Petersburg made an historic sale to a young tycoon anxious to make a good impression during his audience with... Czar Nicholas II!" (Narrator, Builder 15.1-15.2)
"Another detour! After two years of investigating and investing throughout Western Asia, Scrooge posed as a horsetrader in Bazookistan and, finally..." (Narrator, Builder 15.6) Scrooge retrieves the candy-striped ruby.
"Sure enough, an ocean liner left Southampton not much later, with Scrooge McDuck aboard, bound for home..." (Narrator, Builder 15.7) The time is April 1912, and the ship is the HMS Titanic.
And sure enough, as per Barks...
"And that hat cost me two dollars in 1910!" (Scrooge, The Lemming with the Locket 11.7)
"I own the candy-striped ruby! I got it in a horse trade with Bazookistan bandits in 1912!" (Scrooge, The Status Seeker, 4.1)

It's up to the reader to decide what takes preference. Did the "some months" between Scrooge's visits with Peary and the Czar amount to almost a year, or did Peary's expedition take place later in the Rosa universe than it did in real life?
Initially, I believed that Rosa was simply mistaken about the date of the Peary expedition, but after reading the original sketches for Builder, it's clear he just lost track while revising. It's not the only thing in Builder that doesn't add up...

The case for 1932 and 1933
If we take 1909 as the date for Scrooge's Blackest Day, and we assumed he had no contact with his sisters after that, then by Hortense's reckoning his return to Duckburg should take place in 1932. We have some evidence for that. In A Letter from Home (33.1), we see Matilda's memories of that sordid day, and on the wall of Scrooge's office hangs a graph labeled 1932. That's not necessarily a giveaway -- it may not denote the calendar year, but the financial year 1932 -- which ran all the way up to July 1, 1933.
"It's been over 20 years since you last saw Uncle Scrooge! I think it's time you two made up!" "It's been nearly 25 years, and I plan to extend the record! OUTTA THE WAY!" (Donald and Matilda, Letter 6.3)

Letter is one of those stories I would characterize as being very late in the timeline: Scrooge is well into the sentimental phase of his life, and there's an atmosphere (supported by indirect references) that most of the Duck's adventures have already taken place. Are there any cultural context clues to when it takes place? Well yes, but we'll have to go to its predeccessor: The Crown of the Crusader Kings.
"Hah! Brutopia might have sputniks and caviar, but they don't have a single Gearloose!" (Scrooge, Crown 7.6)
Sputnik references pop up all over Rosa's work. It's a reminder that he grew up on the comics of his older sister: Rosa himself was born in 1951, and so his view of the 1950s manifests itself through references to the late '50s (and early '60s), rather than the early '50s in which many of his stories are set. Sputnik launched in October 1957, and I've slotted Crown in my timeline to be set that winter, with Letter following in early 1958. Cultural references form the backbone of my timeline, so I'm keen on keeping to the real-life date. This forms the most recent case for Builder: some time in the first half of 1933.

What about earlier references, then? Well, Scrooge may have continued to send letters to his sisters as late as 1910. As for Scrooge's last visit to Duckburg in 1905-1906, it may have been something we haven't seen. Or we might have seen it indeed, when Scrooge returns home in a cannon at the beginning of Builder...
"It's true! Nobody but I can handle gangs of thugs like the one I came up against in Nevada last year! I wrote you about that, remember?" (Scrooge, Builder 2.7)
"You never did send us those shares!" "Oh? Well, I was in a hurry to get to the world's fair in St. Louis, to sell recordings of 'The Baggage Coach Ahead'!" (Matilda and Scrooge, Builder 4.1)
These events had been linked together in an earlier draft set circa 1907, when Matilda simply refers to "that year". But the St. Louis world's fair, and concurrent Olympic Games, took place in the latter half of 1904 (as confirmed by Rosa in this poster illustration). So that part of Builder must take place in 1905.
But wait...
"Within a month, the last three members of the clan McDuck sailed up the Congo river and into the unexplored heart of the untamed continent..." (Narrator, Builder 5.1)

How to reconcile the story's beginning in 1905 with its time skip to 1909 in less than a month? Well, I can't. Remember when I said that there were more contradictions within Builder? Well, this is the one even I don't know how the correct. Rosa may have confused the 1904 Olympics with the ones in 1908, as he explains in the story notes that he needed a new date for the Nevada incident, which Barks had down as 1898 in Mystery of the Ghost Town Railroad and Rosa suggests to move up a decade similar to what he did with Voodoo Hoodoo.

I'd like to mentally replace "within a month" with "four years later" and have the three go on adventures together for a few years. After all, I'll still need to find a place for the American-based adventures The Sharpie of the Culebra Cut (November 1906) and Black Wednesday (1908, as seen in Recluse 4.9). I'm just assuming Hortense and Matilda were off-screen in the latter. Sorry to leave Quackmore hanging, but I'm very much running out of options at this point.

And what about the newsreel segment in Recluse? Does it secretly take place in 1949, or god forbid, 1950? Please, no... Let's just assume that the can on the newsreel footage had a wrong date on it. I read somewhere that Rosa intended the window billboard to mention a Christmas sale on 1947 televisions, and I intend on sticking with the author's intent here, for the sake of the timeline. Besides, there are more problems with that newsreel if you think it through. (Where did they find a photograph of the clan McDuck with baby Hortense and Angus? He left for America ages ago!)

Bonus: The Old Castle's Other Curse
Sometimes timelines can tell unintentional stories. As told above, Rosa had some problems in setting Scrooge's Blackest Day with relation to Voodoo Hoodoo, but kept to the ---9 motif in order to align with the story's original 1949 publication. He likes to do that. However, from a wider perspective Voodoo Hoodoo sticks out as one of the stories most necessarily removed from its original publication, and that's a corner wrote himself into. Says Foola Zoola:
"UNCLE?" (Voodoo Hoodoo 25.4)
"Is Scrooge McDuck your uncle?" (25.5)
"Sure is! I'm his nearest living relative!" (Donald, 25.5)
"Throw him in the bull pen! It is the law of voodoo that the nearest of kin can atone for the sins of a wrongdoer!" (Foola Zoola, 25.7)

Classic Barks -- except, isn't Matilda Scrooge's nearest living relative? She's his sister, while Donald is his nephew. Barks' particular wording leaves little room for debate: Donald is Scrooge's closest living relative by the time of Voodoo Hoodoo, which must be some time after A Letter from Home. I have it down as 1959, which is in keeping with the ---9 motif, and it's pretty much the last time you can set a story in Darkest Africa (most of which got its independence in 1960).
It's sad to realize that Matilda died shortly after her last appearance, but it wouldn't be the first time. The events in The Laird of Castle McDuck seem to have spurned a new curse surrounding Castle McDuck. Every time Scrooge turns up, its proprietor passes away. Jake McDuck after 1885, Fergus McDuck in 1902, Scottie McTerrier circa 1948, and Matilda McDuck in 1959.

---

Well, that's it. If you have any comments, please don't share them because I don't want to overhaul my timeline yet again. It won't be done for the foreseeable future, but I'm hoping to get it done some day, according to my theories. Bear with me!

[Scrooge MacDuck]

Very commendable overview!

I don't expect to change your mind on this but I really wouldn't give too much weight, in particular, to mentions of Brutopian sputniks, because, well, they are Brutopian sputniks, not Soviet sputniks. There's clearly a big ol'alternate history thing going on with Eastern Europe in the Barks-Rosa timeline, and Rosa has been notorious unwilling to set down exactly what, most notably being reluctant to just say that Brutopia is Russia and/or the U.S.S.R. (which I believe he cites somewhere as the reason he never did a story set in Brutopia despite the reader demand for one). Also going per authorial intent, Rosa highlights in his commentary to The Duck Who Fell To Earth that this story depicts many more (Brutopian) sputniks in orbit than there were at any point in the 1950's. Attack of the Hideous Space Varmints's prologue does too, come to that. So I think we can take it as read that even if we stick to the real-world timeline when trying to puzzle out the history of Rosa's Earth, it's going to be a dead end to give any weight to Brutopian history, especially not where sputniks are concerned.

More seriously, I wouldn't advise moving Voodoo Hoodoo forward to a post-Letter From Home setting. Scrooge's lackadaisical attitude about his actions on the Blackest Day in Hoodoo are OOC enough for a just-out-of-his-shell, not-yet-altogether-redeemed Scrooge a short time after Christmas on Bear Mountain; it becomes downright untenable after his atonement in Letter From Home for precisely those faults. Why does Donald, then, say he is Scrooge's only living relative in Hoodoo? He's fibbing, duh. Donald's body language in the sequence makes it clear that he only says this because he (very stupidly) thinks this will impress Zoola and make him more willing to lift the curse. 

(That Donald does not disabuse Zoola of this notion after he learns what Zoola intends to do to "Scrooge's closest living relative" is, in this view, a sneaky credit to Donald's moral character: even under threat of sorcerous miniaturization, he's not about to throw his elderly aunt under the bus, and so he keeps his beak shut.)

Of course, this issue with Hoodoo goes double if, like me, you take the existence of Gideon and of various McDuck cousins as fact, but I'm trying to abide by the Rosa timeline here.

[Baar Baar Jinx]

Jul 15, 2020 23:15:02 GMT Scrooge MacDuck said:

Why does Donald, then, say he is Scrooge's only living relative in Hoodoo? He's fibbing, duh. Donald's body language in the sequence makes it clear that he only says this because he (very stupidly) thinks this will impress Zoola and make him more willing to lift the curse. 

I agree that moving "Voodoo Hoodoo" to occur after "Letter From Home" would be inadvisable, for the reasons you outline above. As for explaining away Donald's claim to be Scrooge's closest relative as his being untruthful (for whatever reason), I generally dislike the idea of characters lying or being confused to paper over inconsistencies. Barks clearly did not intend Scrooge to have any living siblings, but if one truly wanted to retroactively include Matilda in the Barks canon, could it be that even Donald did not, at the time of "Voodoo Hoodoo", know that Matilda was still alive?  We know from both "The Empire Builder from Calisota" and " A Letter From Home" that she was around for at least part of Donald's childhood, but perhaps after the estrangement with Scrooge, she parted ways with Hortense and her kids as well for some other reason (maybe related to Hortense's marriage to Mr. Drake as discussed on other threads) and lost all contact with them, only to reach out to her nephews some time after the events of "Voodoo Hoodoo"? Maybe, like Scrooge (in my headcanon), it was Hortense's death in 1947 that prompted her to do so, although since she didn't live in Duckburg at the time, it took her longer to find out about her sister's death and re-establish ties than it did for Scrooge, so there was a brief time that Donald was in contact with Scrooge but didn't know Matilda was still alive, a period in which "Voodoo Hoodoo" falls. I know it's a stretch, but it's an alternate explanation (although it would be sad if Donald and Della were estranged from both of their mother's siblings growing up. Also, Hortense and Matilda seem to have been very close, so it's hard to see them having a falling out).

In "Letter from Home", Scrooge is surprised to learn that Matilda is the new caretaker of Castle McDuck, but is he also surprised to learn that she is even alive? I've often wondered if that was what Rosa intended. His shock at seeing her again seems to be quite great. Did Matilda hate Scrooge so much that she would want Donald to let Scrooge think she was dead? It would explain why Scrooge doesn't even think of her as a living relative in "Some Heir Over the Rainbow". 

[caballero]

In LoS 11 and 12, Rosa was very specific about Scrooge's return to Duckburg taking palce in exactly 1930, so if any other story contradicts it, I have to assume that those other stories are the incorrect ones.

[That Duckfan]

Jul 15, 2020 23:15:02 GMT Scrooge MacDuck said:

Very commendale overview!

I don't expect to change your mind on this but I really wouldn't give too much weight, in particular, to mentions of Brutopian sputniks, because, well, they are Brutopian sputniks, not Soviet sputniks. There's clearly a big ol'alternate history thing going on with Eastern Europe in the Barks-Rosa timeline, and Rosa has been notorious unwilling to set down exactly what, most notably being reluctant to just say that Brutopia is Russia and/or the U.S.S.R. (which I believe he cites somewhere as the reason he never did a story set in Brutopia despite the reader demand for one). Also going per authorial intent, Rosa highlights in his commentary to The Duck Who Fell To Earth that this story depicts many more (Brutopian) sputniks in orbit than there were at any point in the 1950's. Attack of the Hideous Space Varmints's prologue does too, come to that. So I think we can take it as read that even if we stick to the real-world timeline when trying to puzzle out the history of Rosa's Earth, it's going to be a dead end to give any weight to Brutopian history, especially not where sputniks are concerned.

Brutopia is indeed a little ambiguous: Barks intended them merely to serve as generic foreigners, but Rosa leans pretty heavily on the Cold War symmetry and symbolism, presenting Brutopia as cold and full of ice sheets, and going so far as use Cyrillic to represent their language in Crown. Rosa has precedence in my timeline, so for me Brutopia = U.S.S.R. through filter theory or whatever.

You're right that it doesn't change my mind. For me, the space race simply accelerated to ludicrous speed after 1957, more or less following Barks' take-off of space stories from that time onwards. It's just a convenient date to pin stories to, but it's far from the only reference to the late '50s.

More seriously, I wouldn't advise moving Voodoo Hoodoo forward to a post-Letter From Home setting. Scrooge's lackadaisical attitude about his actions on the Blackest Day in Hoodoo are OOC enough for a just-out-of-his-shell, not-yet-altogether-redeemed Scrooge a short time after Christmas on Bear Mountain; it becomes downright untenable after his atonement in Letter From Home for precisely those faults. Why does Donald, then, say he is Scrooge's only living relative in Hoodoo? He's fibbing, duh. Donald's body language in the sequence makes it clear that he only says this because he (very stupidly) thinks this will impress Zoola and make him more willing to lift the curse. 

(That Donald does not disabuse Zoola of this notion after he learns what Zoola intends to do to "Scrooge's closest living relative" is, in this view, a sneaky credit to Donald's moral character: even under threat of sorcerous miniaturization, he's not about to throw his elderly aunt under the bus, and so he keeps his beak shut.)

You've reasoned yourself a nice way out, but I read too my terror into Donald's face for me to think he's putting on a brave face for her sake.

I don't know about Scrooge, I think he'd be in a better place to discuss his Blackest Day after the events of Letter than any time before. Plus, Voodoo Hoodoo revels in Donald's melodramatic yammering. Scrooge is not the only character who doesn't see it as a big deal. Which is surprisingly in keeping with Rosa's Scrooge, who never seems too attached to Donald's physical well-being unless it's truly serious (like the end of The Black Knight GLORPS Again!). It's Donald, after all. He'll live. Cartoon physics and all that.
(To make Scrooge's attitude a little more plausible, I've put Voodoo Hoodoo before The Incredible Shrinking Tightwad.)

Jul 16, 2020 0:17:27 GMT Baar Baar Jinx said:

I agree that moving "Voodoo Hoodoo" to occur after "Letter From Home" would be inadvisable, for the reasons you outline above. As for explaining away Donald's claim to be Scrooge's closest relative as his being untruthful (for whatever reason), I generally dislike the idea of characters lying or being confused to paper over inconsistencies. Barks clearly did not intend Scrooge to have any living siblings, but if one truly wanted to retroactively include Matilda in the Barks canon, could it be that even Donald did not, at the time of "Voodoo Hoodoo", know that Matilda was still alive?  We know from both "The Empire Builder from Calisota" and " A Letter From Home" that she was around for at least part of Donald's childhood, but perhaps after the estrangement with Scrooge, she parted ways with Hortense and her kids as well for some other reason (maybe related to Hortense's marriage to Mr. Drake as discussed on other threads) and lost all contact with them, only to reach out to her nephews some time after the events of "Voodoo Hoodoo"? Maybe, like Scrooge (in my headcanon), it was Hortense's death in 1947 that prompted her to do so, although since she didn't live in Duckburg at the time, it took her longer to find out about her sister's death and re-establish ties than it did for Scrooge, so there was a brief time that Donald was in contact with Scrooge but didn't know Matilda was still alive, a period in which "Voodoo Hoodoo" falls. I know it's a stretch, but it's an alternate explanation (although it would be sad if Donald and Della were estranged from both of their mother's siblings growing up. Also, Hortense and Matilda seem to have been very close, so it's hard to see them having a falling out).

[/div]

In "Letter from Home", Scrooge is surprised to learn that Matilda is the new caretaker of Castle McDuck, but is he also surprised to learn that she is even alive? I've often wondered if that was what Rosa intended. His shock at seeing her again seems to be quite great. Did Matilda hate Scrooge so much that she would want Donald to let Scrooge think she was dead? It would explain why Scrooge doesn't even think of her as a living relative in "Some Heir Over the Rainbow". 

[/quote]I find all this losing and regaining contact with close family members too convoluted. I understand why having Voodoo Hoodoo in that place is undesirable to some, and to everyone their own headcanon, but it's not for me.

I was just re-reading Letter and found some interesting quotes:
"You boys make yourselves at home! I'll be back after Scrooge leaves! Hortense and I swore we'd never speak to him again!" (Matilda, 5.9)
"Wow! Unca Scrooge has told us stories of the old days, when he and you and Unca Donald's ma left Scotland and moved to Duckburg!" "But I'll bet he never told you that we left Duckburg because we got fed up with his greed!" (Huey and Matilda, 6.6)
"Frankly, you stunned me, too! How did you know about the Templar treasury?" "Pooh! We McDucks have known about it for over 50 years! All of us except Scroogey, that is!" (Donald and Matilda, 8.8)

We McDucks? We? What other McDucks are still around in 1958, apart from Scrooge and Matilda? Unless... Am I reading too much into that?

Here's a little scenario. We're in Duckburg, 193X. Matilda and Hortense are both completely through with Scrooge and are ready to leave for Scotland. But Quackmore doesn't feel the same attachment to his brother-in-law/employer. When he hears Hortense's plans, he hears "give up the job I've held for decades admidst the highest unemployment figures this country has ever known, and move to some backwater in Scotland". So he and Hortense fight, as usual, but this time the split is final. Hortense leaves for Scotland, and Quackmore moves in with his mother to take care of the kids (one of them, anyway). Quackmore either dies soon after, or he and Hortense come to a mutual understanding to leave the children with their grandparents. And that's how Donald came to live on Grandma Duck's farm.

[Scrooge MacDuck]

Jul 16, 2020 19:10:40 GMT That Duckfan said:

IPlus, Voodoo Hoodoo revels in Donald's melodramatic yammering. Scrooge is not the only character who doesn't see it as a big deal. Which is surprisingly in keeping with Rosa's Scrooge, who never seems too attached to Donald's physical well-being unless it's truly serious (like the end of The Black Knight GLORPS Again!). It's Donald, after all. He'll live. Cartoon physics and all that.

I'm not talking about his dismissal of Donald's worries about the curse (which, as you argue, isn't a big deal). I'm talking about how Scrooge seems downright pleased with himself when he recounts how he hired some heavies to burn down Zoola's village. It's already a stretch, as Rosa admits in the commentary for Chapter 11, to place such a scene after the likes of the Titanic episode; but it's completely ridiculous that the post-Letter Scrooge would talk about the incident in those terms.

Of course, another reason to place Voodoo Hoodoo early in the Rosa timeline is simply how Scrooge looks in it. He still has his low-reaching sideburns and glasses with branches, and hasn't gone bac to wearing his iconic red coat yet; this is a Scrooge who's still finding himself after the end of Chapter 12, IMO. You could, I suppose, filter those elements out as simply Barks's evolving artstyle, but that doesn't seem to be how Rosa views it, both from Richest Duck in the World itself and from his famous illustration of Scrooge's early looks.

[Spectrus]

Jul 15, 2020 23:15:02 GMT Scrooge MacDuck said:

More seriously, I wouldn't advise moving Voodoo Hoodoo forward to a post-Letter From Home setting. Scrooge's lackadaisical attitude about his actions on the Blackest Day in Hoodoo are OOC enough for a just-out-of-his-shell, not-yet-altogether-redeemed Scrooge a short time after Christmas on Bear Mountain; it becomes downright untenable after his atonement in Letter From Home for precisely those faults. Why does Donald, then, say he is Scrooge's only living relative in Hoodoo? He's fibbing, duh. Donald's body language in the sequence makes it clear that he only says this because he (very stupidly) thinks this will impress Zoola and make him more willing to lift the curse. 

(That Donald does not disabuse Zoola of this notion after he learns what Zoola intends to do to "Scrooge's closest living relative" is, in this view, a sneaky credit to Donald's moral character: even under threat of sorcerous miniaturization, he's not about to throw his elderly aunt under the bus, and so he keeps his beak shut.)

Yeah, that was my first thought too when I read the opening post. And for all the reasons that you stated later too (behaviour, looks).

Besides, it may be a 'male' thing... just like neither Hortense nor Matilda can be the "last of the McDucks" (because it has to be a guy), I wouldn't expect Zoola to take his revenge on a woman.

[Matilda]

"Pooh! We McDucks have known about it for over 50 years! All of us except Scroogey, that is!" (Donald and Matilda, 8.8)

We McDucks? We? What other McDucks are still around in 1958, apart from Scrooge and Matilda? Unless... Am I reading too much into that?

That Duckfan: If I were the last living Bletch, but other Bletches and I had known all about X since 1968, and we talked about it then and occasionally over the decades since, until one by one the other Bletches died off, it would be perfectly normal for me to say "We Bletches have known about X for over 50 years!" No need for other Bletches to be alive for that verb tense to work. It's another way to say, "My family has known about X for over 50 years!" You can say that even if you're the only one left of your family.

[That Duckfan]

Jul 16, 2020 20:42:23 GMT Matilda said:

"Pooh! We McDucks have known about it for over 50 years! All of us except Scroogey, that is!" (Donald and Matilda, 8.8)

We McDucks? We? What other McDucks are still around in 1958, apart from Scrooge and Matilda? Unless... Am I reading too much into that?

That Duckfan: If I were the last living Bletch, but other Bletches and I had known all about X since 1968, and we talked about it then and occasionally over the decades since, until one by one the other Bletches died off, it would be perfectly normal for me to say "We Bletches have known about X for over 50 years!" No need for other Bletches to be alive for that verb tense to work. It's another way to say, "My family has known about X for over 50 years!" You can say that even if you're the only one left of your family.

Thought so. It makes sense for Matilda to speak for Hortense that way. Still, it's nice to imagine that she's still alive somewhere...

Jul 16, 2020 19:20:57 GMT Scrooge MacDuck said:

I'm not talking about his dismissal of Donald's worries about the curse (which, as you argue, isn't a big deal). I'm talking about how Scrooge seems downright pleased with himself when he recounts how he hired some heavies to burn down Zoola's village. It's already a stretch, as Rosa admits in the commentary for Chapter 11, to place such a scene after the likes of the Titanic episode; but it's completely ridiculous that the post-Letter Scrooge would talk about the incident in those terms.

Of course, another reason to place Voodoo Hoodoo early in the Rosa timeline is simply how Scrooge looks in it. He still has his low-reaching sideburns and glasses with branches, and hasn't gone bac to wearing his iconic red coat yet; this is a Scrooge who's still finding himself after the end of Chapter 12, IMO. You could, I suppose, filter those elements out as simply Barks's evolving artstyle, but that doesn't seem to be how Rosa views it, both from Richest Duck in the World itself and from his famous illustration of Scrooge's early looks.

Let's be honest, it's pretty hard to reconcile early Scrooge with any part of Rosa's timeline. His clothes don't bother me too much. That poster, to me, is clearly a reference to Barks' evolving artstyle. I'm also in the position of having to deal with The Magic Hourglass according to my rules, even though Rosa himself rejects it. (Note that The Magic Hourglass does make an appearance on the poster, to reflect his changing looks.)

(Note: my timeline incorporates stories and focuses on textual references, not illustrations.)

[Scrooge MacDuck]

Jul 16, 2020 21:04:16 GMT That Duckfan said:

I'm also in the position of having to deal with The Magic Hourglass according to my rules, even though Rosa himself rejects it.

Does he? He rejects the idea that Scrooge owes his fortune to the Hourglass, but I don't think he writes off the entirety of the present-day stuff in Magic Hourglass. Indeed, he still includes the idea of Scrooge as having crossed the Atlantic on a cattle boat in the L&T.

[That Duckfan]

Jul 16, 2020 21:27:09 GMT Scrooge MacDuck said:

Jul 16, 2020 21:04:16 GMT That Duckfan said:

I'm also in the position of having to deal with The Magic Hourglass according to my rules, even though Rosa himself rejects it.

Does he? He rejects the idea that Scrooge owes his fortune to the Hourglass, but I don't think he writes off the entirety of the present-day stuff in Magic Hourglass. Indeed, he still includes the idea of Scrooge as having crossed the Atlantic on a cattle boat in the L&T.

I find it difficult to accept certain "facts" that arose from a particular story while rejecting other parts of that story. It's all or nothing for me. So, since Rosa decided to include the latter, I need to find a way of including the former. (It's a bit of a formal exercise in that respect -- I'm more fast and loose when it comes to my own headcanon.)


How do you all feel in general about moving stories around? Do you think the chronological order in which the stories were written reflects the order in which the Ducks experience them, or not? I've played pretty fast and loose with it, since Rosa shows us some of the treasury of Croesus in his very first story, because he figured he'd write that story one day or another.

Consider the case of the Klondike story. Rosa's Last Sled to Dawson is a direct sequel to Back to the Klondike, as well as North of the Yukon. But given the prominent role Goldie plays in Klondike-set stories, her absence in North of the Yukon is what I would call conspicuous. Conspicuous absence often plays a role in my timeline, even if I'm fully aware that there were other reasons for not including a particular character. But from a Watsonian perspective, the lack of Goldie in North of the Yukon suggests that it comes first, even though the story was written much later.
Another argument for Yukon being an early story is Scrooge is the photojournalism angle that kicks off the story. For me, this represents Scrooge slowly returning to the limelight after his long absence from public life --- and new fame brings with it new enemies (or in this case, old ones!).
Funny enough, this can bring bring new life to old words. When Scrooge famously says "We're going back to the Klondike!" in the eponymous story, he's not necessarily referring to the olden days -- he might as well be referring to their previous visit up north in North of the Yukon.

[Scrooge MacDuck]

Jul 17, 2020 19:44:28 GMT That Duckfan said:

How do you all feel in general about moving stories around? Do you think the chronological order in which the stories were written reflects the order in which the Ducks experience them, or not? I've played pretty fast and loose with it, since Rosa shows us some of the treasury of Croesus in his very first story, because he figured he'd write that story one day or another.

For me, it all depends on authorial intent. Barks intended for all of his stories to happen in the year he wrote them, give or take — as can be seen most easily by the changing fashion styles, trends, and technology levels. Therefore, his stories, and those of his contemporaries, I tend to believe must happen when they were published.

Rosa is an entirely different matter — he considers all of his work to be made up of midquels to Barks's work, of period pieces. Therefore, the order he wrote them in doesn't especially matter, as the release date only concerns me within Barks inasmuch as it is tied to Barks's probable authorial intent.

And anyway, this is all within my usual timeline-making; creating a unified Dsney comics timeline which (among other things) accounts for Rosa's material is a very different business from creating a timeline of Rosa's Duckverse, and in the latter endeavour, where I have but dabbled, I could see deciding that Rosa's authorial intent overrides Barks's. And Rosa clearly believes that some Barks stories happen at different points than they were released; he said as much on the DCML once.

I will say this: if one begins switching around Barks stories, putting North of the Yukon in the immediate aftermath of Christmas on Bear Mountain is a perfectly logical choice, and one which had occurred to me long ago when I first read it. It's worth noting that the date given by Rosa for Last Sled is already earlier than 1961.

How do you feel about the proposal that within a Barks-Rosa-centric timeline, Last Sled is in fact the last Scrooge story (or thereabouts), taking place a short time after Letter From Home — with Scrooge staying with Goldie after the ending? The final panel is certainly a nice bookend with the last panel of Last of the Clan McDuck, and heck, having "Last" in the title certainly lends a story a certain finality from the get-go.

We'll see if it holds up to your more precise research, but in terms of an overall narrative of the Rosaverse, my feeling is that there's a definite "ending" that goes something like A Little Something Special (Goldie proposes to Scrooge) -> King Crœsus's Treasutre (Scrooge's rivalry with Magica ends) - Son of the Sun/Last Lord of Eldorado (Scrooge defeats Glomgold; has to be post-King Crœsus due to the easter egg you mentioned in Son othe Sun) -> Return to Xanadu/Crown of the Crusader Kings/Letter From Home (Scrooge reaches a dead-end with his treasure-seeking, and is eventually driven to reconcile himself with his remaining family) -> Last Sled to Dawson (Scrooge ties up the other letter-based dead end set up by the events of the L&T and presumably accepts Goldie's proposal).

You have to work Quest for Kalevala somewhere in there too. But it's clearly a period of at least three years, spanning 1952-1955, so there are a bunch of Rosa stories also taking place in that loose "cycle of endings".

As I said, my answer would be completely different if you were asking me what my own headcanon timeline looks like, because there isn't an ending to be driven towards, and anyway, if I give Barks equal weight to Rosa rather than giving Rosa primacy, Midas Touch simply has to be 1961 and so A Little Something Special cannot be 1952 and the whole thing basically falls apart. But if you ask me to construct a timeline of Rosa's unaging-factor-less, more realistic Duckverse, that's my answer.

[LP]

Jul 15, 2020 17:21:04 GMT That Duckfan said:

Well, that's it. If you have any comments, please don't share them because I don't want to overhaul my timeline yet again.  

At first, I refrained from commenting because of this. But seeing as others have commented, I'll throw in my two cents as well!

First of all I want to applaud you for this in-depth analysis! It's commendable how much effort and thought you must have put into it! I guess it goes without saying, but I'm very excited to see the final timeline. I hope you'll include your motivation behind the placements of stories in the final version as well! This stuff is really interesting!

I didn't realize that Rosa confused himself so much during the writing of LoS 11! What a shame! However, the intention was clearly for chapter 11 to take place in 1930, and chapter 12 in 1947, so I'd say it's best to go with that.

I have a question: You say A Letter From Home will be placed in 1958. Considering Rosa puts HDL's birthdate in 1940, this will make them 18 years old in that story, yet they still look like little kids. I'd say that children not aging properly is one of the major problems with making a timeline in universes with a floating timeline. I could accept HDL being around 15 at most in their regular design. Anyways, Duckfan, what's your approach to this conundrum? 

[That Duckfan]

Jul 18, 2020 10:43:00 GMT LP said:

I didn't realize that Rosa confused himself so much during the writing of LoS 11! What a shame! However, the intention was clearly for chapter 11 to take place in 1930, and chapter 12 in 1947, so I'd say it's best to go with that.

It's understandable, Chapter 11 is filled to the brim with references and went through extensive rewrites. The sketches for the original 20 pages of the story, as well as other parts of the Life of Scrooge that significantly departed, can be found here.

Authors make timeline mistakes from time to time. J. K. Rowling famously gave Durdley Dursley (Harry Potter's cousin) a first-generation Playstation a year before they came out. It's up to the fans to fix it into a coherent narrative.

I have a question: You say A Letter From Home will be placed in 1958. Considering Rosa puts HDL's birthdate in 1940, this will make them 18 years old in that story, yet they still look like little kids. I'd say that children not aging properly is one of the major problems with making a timeline in universes with a floating timeline. I could accept HDL being around 15 at most in their regular design. Anyways, Duckfan, what's your approach to this conundrum? 

Yes, that's a tough one. I have two theories, myself. One involves the significant age jump of characters such as Donald and Della, between the years 193X and 194X. Some accident with time (possibly Gearloose-related) may have played havoc with the characters aging later on. Certainly the question of the nephews is more why they're so old in the 1940s, rather than why they're so young in the 1950s.
The other option is the incorporation of a single Barks story Rosa never drew on: That's No Fable! Both Scrooge and the nephews are seen drinking from the fountain of youth, which explains their relative youthfulness in later stories. The characters certainly mature, they age psychologically, but less so physically. (Note that Donald is never seen drinking from the fountain. I like to imagine that he's the only one of the main five to keep aging.)

Of course, both of these are just theories. I don't know what happens to the characters after 1962 -- Rosa's famous fanzine illustration does not appear in my timeline, because it's an illustration, and I only count the stories.

(Scrooge McDuck --- I'll get back to you, but the forum servers ate my post last night.)

[Scrooge MacDuck]

*Is* it an illustration? It's got dialogue and isn't meant to be a cover or poster, that counts as a story in my book.

Also, I believe Rosa himself has stated somewhere that he sees "That's No Fable" as the reason Scrooge was able to go on in such good health until the age of 100 — though he didn't relate it to the matter of HDL's age, as he believes in a yet again more compressed timeline than you're constructing — 1947-1955 or so.