I'm no fan of the Cornelius-connection either. I'd prefer if Donald was truly just an average Joe, a nobody. Making him a direct descendant to Duckburg's founder ruins that a bit.
I'd say that went out the window the instant Scrooge went from being some random old bitter guy with lots of money to the world's richest business tycoon.
I'm no fan of the Cornelius-connection either. I'd prefer if Donald was truly just an average Joe, a nobody. Making him a direct descendant to Duckburg's founder ruins that a bit.
I'd say that went out the window the instant Scrooge went from being some random old bitter guy with lots of money to the world's richest business tycoon.
I don't really see this as a problem if you remember that Donald, just like everyone else, has eight great-great-grandfathers, it puts things into perspective -- Cornelius is only one of them. There's enough of a generational gap to make Donald the average Joe like you said, especially since he doesn't have the name Coot.
Last Edit: Jan 3, 2021 19:36:07 GMT by juicymcduck
Well, I'm not a fan of Grandma Duck being related to Cornelius Coot first of all. Well, I know it's considered kind of canonical since Rosa stated it in the tree, but before that no author (included Barks) had ever considered the relation, Thompson and Fallberg giving her the name "Duck" is kind of a contradiction too, as well as her uncle being called Asa Duck. We also see Cornelius' true heir in this story and she doesn't seem to be related to Grandma. Bonus: in this story, Humphrey Gokart mentions being related to Cornelius Coot, but in no-way is he related to the Duck family.
And also I think that aunt Vera should be a more distant relative. Where did you get the name Sarah for Rumpus' mother? Plus I deem McFowl should be the name of Rumpus' mother, there is no need to add another character in my opinion.
I know that I'm getting a little bit off-topic, but the fact that Grandma's last name has, in our world, always been Duck and that her uncle's surname is also Duck hadn't really hit me until now. From a pre-Rosa perspective, would it make the most sense to assume that Grandma's maiden name is Duck? I think that, even in a world without Rosa's works, my automatic assumption would have been that Duck is her married name, since she seems to have been married at some point due to the fact that she has descendants, but perhaps Duck being her maiden name fits more with the evidence given, Rosa's works and works inspired by his notwithstanding. Perhaps Grandma is Donald's mother mentioned in an old radio show (more info here), and she reverted to her maiden name of Duck after her husband left her. Maybe Grandma adopted Donald like in From Egg to Duck and was never actually married. I don't know. Just thinking out loud about a hypothetical Duck universe which totally neglects Rosa's stories.
Another hypothetical: when Walt Disney introduced Ludwig, he claimed that he was an uncle from Donald's father's side of the family. If we accept Grandma's maiden name as Duck, could we take Drake as the name of Donald's grandfather? The main problem with that is that Donald has many cousins, most of whom are named Duck, Fethry chief among them. Were they all named after Grandma?
I'm no fan of the Cornelius-connection either. I'd prefer if Donald was truly just an average Joe, a nobody. Making him a direct descendant to Duckburg's founder ruins that a bit.
I'd say that went out the window the instant Scrooge went from being some random old bitter guy with lots of money to the world's richest business tycoon.
I agree. I'd prefer if he was a wealthy business owner, and rich enough to travel and take the Ducks out on adventures. It's him being the richest man in the world that bothers me slightly.
Re aunt Vera: I, as you, have always considered her being an O'Drake (for the same reason of yours: Rumpus' mother writing to her), but she could also easily be a McDuck (Rumpus' mom might have been really closed to her as Fergus's sister and thus she confesses their son after Fergus' death).
But:
- I don't find it likely now her being Downy's sister: this would mean Rumpus and Scrooge being twice related and also Fergus having children with two women who are sisters (not really Disney lol). - She could be Fergus' sister as I mentioned earlier, but I guess she should have known about the relationship between Fergus and Rumpus' mother so the letter would have been pointless.
So: the Rumpus-Scrooge relation isn't clear at the beginning (they just believe being some kind of cousins), but they still consider Vera an aunt (which side is unclear because their relation is not close), so I guess she could just be lost in the tree as Fergus' or Downy's cousin.
I'm open to the idea of aunt Vera being from Fergus' side of the family. I re-read the relevant scene of Travails. It seems that Rumpus' mother's hatred of the McDucks isn't part of the letter to Vera; it appears to be something the mother spoke to Rumpus about during his upbringing when he was living as a cousin of the McDucks, rather than a McDuck-proper. Anyways, part of the letter reads:
But alas, Vera, because of additional ties to the McDucks via others of our family, we choose to admit to cousinhood, though even that is not a prospect of occasion much joy!
I'm not sure I understand that quote fully. But right now, it appears to be all that stands between me and pinning Aunt Vera down as a McDuck. What does she mean by "additional ties" and "via others of our family"? I can't think clearly right now, but someone - please help and clarify!
I'm not sure I understand that quote fully. But right now, it appears to be all that stands between me and pinning Aunt Vera down as a McDuck. What does she mean by "additional ties" and "via others of our family"? I can't think clearly right now, but someone - please help and clarify!
What I am getting is that Rumpus and mother were already related to McDuck family somehow besides Fergus' involvement. It might be in-law relatives or 2/3rd cousinhood, it is never going to be specified I guess. And yes, it looks like Vera is a McDuck, but I keep supporting her not being direct aunt to Scrooge or Rumpus, but rather a more distant relative like idk Fergus' cousin.
What I am getting is that Rumpus and mother were already related to McDuck family somehow besides Fergus' involvement. It might be in-law relatives or 2/3rd cousinhood, it is never going to be specified I guess. And yes, it looks like Vera is a McDuck, but I keep supporting her not being direct aunt to Scrooge or Rumpus, but rather a more distant relative like idk Fergus' cousin.
Well, when making Duck-trees I try to keep the incest at a minimum (which is why I reject the theories that Donald and Daisy are cousins). Rumpus' mother could possibly have a sibling or cousin that also married into the McDuck clan, but I'd prefer if she herself wasn't a McDuck. I've done some editing to my tree, and currently her only relation to the McDucks is her marriage to Fergus.
I don't know what to do with Aunt Vera. I've accepted that she's a McDuck to around 90%. However, I'm currently undecided as to whether she should be Fergus' sister or Quagmire's daughter. She could even be a niece of Molly Mallard! Anyways, you want her to not be a direct aunt of Scrooge's; you prefer her to be more distant. I'm curious, why is this? My tree has a brother to Potluck McDuck; with the brother being the great-grandfather of Diamond Dick's third wife. I thought about placing Vera somewhere on this branch, but came to the decision that she would be too distant to Scrooge and Rumpus for my liking.
What I am getting is that Rumpus and mother were already related to McDuck family somehow besides Fergus' involvement. It might be in-law relatives or 2/3rd cousinhood, it is never going to be specified I guess. And yes, it looks like Vera is a McDuck, but I keep supporting her not being direct aunt to Scrooge or Rumpus, but rather a more distant relative like idk Fergus' cousin.
Well, when making Duck-trees I try to keep the incest at a minimum (which is why I reject the theories that Donald and Daisy are cousins). Rumpus' mother could possibly have a sibling or cousin that also married into the McDuck clan, but I'd prefer if she herself wasn't a McDuck. I've done some editing to my tree, and currently her only relation to the McDucks is her marriage to Fergus.
I don't know what to do with Aunt Vera. I've accepted that she's a McDuck to around 90%. However, I'm currently undecided as to whether she should be Fergus' sister or Quagmire's daughter. She could even be a niece of Molly Mallard! Anyways, you want her to not be a direct aunt of Scrooge's; you prefer her to be more distant. I'm curious, why is this? My tree has a brother to Potluck McDuck; with the brother being the great-grandfather of Diamond Dick's third wife. I thought about placing Vera somewhere on this branch, but came to the decision that she would be too distant to Scrooge and Rumpus for my liking.
Well, if you put her as Fergus’ sister, she wouldn’t be related to Rumpus (at least prior to the brotherhood reveal), that’s my only concern.
Uncle Quagmire had two daughters according to John Lustig (we talked about this in a private conversation which has later been made public on the DDF(R)appet fanzine), but i know you prefer “official” relationship found within comics.
I wrote something about Molly Mallard in the thread called “Duck family trees i made in 2012/2013” (on this forum), but still no evidence in the comic books.
The only official information we have is that Vera is aunt to both Scrooge and Rumpus. She could be Scrooge’s great-aunt who may have had a child related somehow to a Rumpus’ mother’s cousin/sibling. That’s the best I could come up with. This could work even shifting her one generation below (like Fergus), but this would make her more a cousin to Rumpus.
Well, if you put her as Fergus’ sister, she wouldn’t be related to Rumpus (at least prior to the brotherhood reveal), that’s my only concern.
Uncle Quagmire had two daughters according to John Lustig (we talked about this in a private conversation which has later been made public on the DDF(R)appet fanzine), but i know you prefer “official” relationship found within comics.
About Molly Mallard I wrote something in the thread called “Duck family trees i made in 2012/2013” (on this forum), but still no evidence in the comic books.
The only official information we have is that Vera is aunt to both Scrooge and Rumpus. She could be Scrooge’s great-aunt who may have had a child related somehow to a Rumpus’ mother’s cousin/sibling. That’s the best I could come up with. This could work even shifting her one generation below (like Fergus), but this would make her more a cousin to Rumpus.
Why wouldn't Vera be related to Rumpus if she was Fergus' sister? Even if Rumpus was Scrooge's cousin, he'd still be related to Scrooge...and therefore also to Scrooge's aunt on the McDuck-side of his family. The quote I posted before makes it clear that Rumpus' mother "admits to Rumpus' cousinhood with the McDucks". So I guess the cousin-lie was that Rumpus' father was either a brother of Fergus or a first cousin of Fergus... At any rate, even when Rumpus was thought to only be Scrooge's cousin, he was still a cousin of the McDucks. Therefore, he would be related to Vera if she were a McDuck. I hope my point is clear; it was hard to formulate!
I remember having read about Lustig having made some genealogical connections with Quagmire, but I didn't remember any specifics! Did he name the daughters? Could one of them be retconned into being Vera?
I checked your family tree-thread, but I couldn't find any mention of any relation between Molly and Vera. (But now I'm considering adding Marmaduke Mallard to my tree.) Vera being a Mallard would make sense, because then Rumpus' mother could rationalize that "I hate the McDucks, but this Mallard-lady is alright".
I'm hesitant to having Vera be two generations older than Scrooge. Rumpus comes across his letter, because he finds it in Vera's home. She's either alive, or has recently died and Rumpus is cleaning out her home. Both of these options are unlikely if she's two generations older than Scrooge.
Quagmire's daughter or Molly's niece seem to be the best placements for Vera.
Well, if you put her as Fergus’ sister, she wouldn’t be related to Rumpus (at least prior to the brotherhood reveal), that’s my only concern.
Uncle Quagmire had two daughters according to John Lustig (we talked about this in a private conversation which has later been made public on the DDF(R)appet fanzine), but i know you prefer “official” relationship found within comics.
About Molly Mallard I wrote something in the thread called “Duck family trees i made in 2012/2013” (on this forum), but still no evidence in the comic books.
The only official information we have is that Vera is aunt to both Scrooge and Rumpus. She could be Scrooge’s great-aunt who may have had a child related somehow to a Rumpus’ mother’s cousin/sibling. That’s the best I could come up with. This could work even shifting her one generation below (like Fergus), but this would make her more a cousin to Rumpus.
Why wouldn't Vera be related to Rumpus if she was Fergus' sister? Even if Rumpus was Scrooge's cousin, he'd still be related to Scrooge...and therefore also to Scrooge's aunt on the McDuck-side of his family. The quote I posted before makes it clear that Rumpus' mother "admits to Rumpus' cousinhood with the McDucks". So I guess the cousin-lie was that Rumpus' father was either a brother of Fergus or a first cousin of Fergus... At any rate, even when Rumpus was thought to only be Scrooge's cousin, he was still a cousin of the McDucks. Therefore, he would be related to Vera if she were a McDuck. I hope my point is clear; it was hard to formulate!
I remember having read about Lustig having made some genealogical connections with Quagmire, but I didn't remember any specifics! Did he name the daughters? Could one of them be retconned into being Vera?
I checked your family tree-thread, but I couldn't find any mention of any relation between Molly and Vera. (But now I'm considering adding Marmaduke Mallard to my tree.) Vera being a Mallard would make sense, because then Rumpus' mother could rationalize that "I hate the McDucks, but this Mallard-lady is alright".
I'm hesitant to having Vera be two generations older than Scrooge. Rumpus comes across his letter, because he finds it in Vera's home. She's either alive, or has recently died and Rumpus is cleaning out her home. Both of these options are unlikely if she's two generations older than Scrooge.
Quagmire's daughter or Molly's niece seem to be the best placements for Vera.
The names were Margaret and Elizabeth, but yes they were pretty arbitrary.
I haven't traced down any connection between Molly and Vera, but there might be one.
Well, I'm not a fan of Grandma Duck being related to Cornelius Coot first of all. Well, I know it's considered kind of canonical since Rosa stated it in the tree, but before that no author (included Barks) had ever considered the relation, Thompson and Fallberg giving her the name "Duck" is kind of a contradiction too, as well as her uncle being called Asa Duck. We also see Cornelius' true heir in this story and she doesn't seem to be related to Grandma. Bonus: in this story, Humphrey Gokart mentions being related to Cornelius Coot, but in no-way is he related to the Duck family.
For those interested in this topic, I just published a blog post regarding why Cornelius shouldn't be considered Grandma's grandfather. I already reported some evidence in the message I am quoting, but there is some more and I would like to know your opinion about it.
For those interested in this topic, I just published a blog post regarding why Cornelius shouldn't be considered Grandma's grandfather. I already reported some evidence in the message I am quoting, but there is some more and I would like to know your opinion about it.
Alright, I'm gonna retort.
Okay, so I think I've mentioned my opinion on the topic before: I prefer when Donald is a regular Joe - thus making him the g-g-grandson of his city's founder is not something i super-like. However, their genealogical relation is a plot-point in W.H.A.D.A.L.O.T.T.A.J.A.R.G.O.N., which is part of my head-canon. So, while I wish I could agree with you, I can't.
(Apologies in advance if I've misunderstood some of your text. I am reading an auto-translated version, after all!)
Anyways, you mention that there are Italian stories in which Grandma and Scrooge are portrayed as siblings. This is contradictory to how Barks himself laid out their genealogical relationship, yet there is no mention of this.
If Grandma's maiden name was Duck, that would mean that both she and her husband shared surnames. Which I guess would be fine, I just never liked that two people that are related share the same last names (like Donald and Daisy for example). So I guess your argument would be that there are a lot of different Duck families floating around in Duckburg. But if you're ready to accept that, then it would be easy to accept that Grandma Duck could have a great-great-grand uncle named Asa Duck, even if she herself was of the Coot kin.
You list various accounts of Donald, Grandma, and others not mentioning Cornelius as a famous relative when the situation allows it. I can't argue with any of those. I agree that the authors of those stories did not consider Grandma and Cornelius to be related. It seems like you're treating every Duck-story ever published as being part of the same continuity, even though that's not how they are written. Rosa has stated himself that he has almost exclusively read Barks' stories and only bases his incarnation of Duckburg on them. In essence, the Rosa-world and the Elviry-Duck-world are parallel universes.
There's a paragraph that lists Cornelia Coot, Scrooge's butler Johann, and Umperio Bogarto as Cornelius' "true" relatives. The "true"-part might be a mistranslation of your article, but if it's not... What makes these three more true than Rosa's interpretation? As you yourself mentioned, Barks never made it explicit either way whether Cornelius was or was not Grandma's relative.
So, I guess my conclusion is that I disagree with yours. The answer to "Is Cornelius the grandfather of Grandma Duck" is (as you have spent your whole article proving) a bit more complicated than just a simple yes or no. In some stories (or traditions) he most certainly is, while in others, the two characters are unrelated. At this point, the "parallel universe interpretation" should be almost undeniable. That's the only way to reconcile the wildly different nature of the many Duck-stories... yet your article doesn't mention anything like that.
You do not seem to have any explanation to the fact that the two equally valid interpretations of Cornelius' lineage co-exist. You just say that both do exist, but only one of them is true. So how do you explain the stories in which the two characters are related? Are those stories just... lies?
For those interested in this topic, I just published a blog post regarding why Cornelius shouldn't be considered Grandma's grandfather. I already reported some evidence in the message I am quoting, but there is some more and I would like to know your opinion about it.
By the way, Sim - Your article features a scene from the story in which Bridger Duck appears! Is it clearly stated that Bridger is Donald's great-great-grandfather? Or could he simply be a great-great-granduncle?
Okay, so I think I've mentioned my opinion on the topic before: I prefer when Donald is a regular Joe - thus making him the g-g-grandson of his city's founder is not something i super-like. However, their genealogical relation is a plot-point in W.H.A.D.A.L.O.T.T.A.J.A.R.G.O.N., which is part of my head-canon. So, while I wish I could agree with you, I can't.
Yes, you already stated this, but I really appreciate the fact that you read the post and kept your idea still.
Anyways, you mention that there are Italian stories in which Grandma and Scrooge are portrayed as siblings. This is contradictory to how Barks himself laid out their genealogical relationship, yet there is no mention of this.
There are some Italian stories in which that relationship is portrayed (not many though, I remember the Rota one and another by Martina) and I acknowledge it in the post, but that connection is clearly negligible since it is just not true, and you can tell it from like everywhere (Taliaferro, Barks and pretty much any author besides those aforementioned stories).
If Grandma's maiden name was Duck, that would mean that both she and her husband shared surnames. Which I guess would be fine, I just never liked that two people that are related share the same last names (like Donald and Daisy for example). So I guess your argument would be that there are a lot of different Duck families floating around in Duckburg. But if you're ready to accept that, then it would be easy to accept that Grandma Duck could have a great-great-grand uncle named Asa Duck, even if she herself was of the Coot kin.
As I wrote in the article:
Someone could object saying: “wait a moment, these are not true evidence, Duck could just be the name she took after marriage”
And this is obviously established in Rosa's own continuity; the Asa Duck connection might look less relevant since he is not a direct uncle, however it is enough to me (I am not a fan of adding family branches where they are not needed), plus most of Duck relatives are surnamed Duck, including some cousins of Grandma if I am not wrong.
You list various accounts of Donald, Grandma, and others not mentioning Cornelius as a famous relative when the situation allows it. I can't argue with any of those. I agree that the authors of those stories did not consider Grandma and Cornelius to be related. It seems like you're treating every Duck-story ever published as being part of the same continuity, even though that's not how they are written. Rosa has stated himself that he has almost exclusively read Barks' stories and only bases his incarnation of Duckburg on them. In essence, the Rosa-world and the Elviry-Duck-world are parallel universes.
This is a part of your message that I really liked. And I would like to express my own vision of this concept.
It goes without saying that, in 90 years of worldwide unconnected comic production, some authors might have written something that contradict other authors, and this is fair. Something has been retconned (Della being Don's cousin in the strips is the best example that I can think of at this moment) and that is okay too. Yet, I treat almost every Duck-story ever published as being part of the same continuity and I have no problem with that. I mean, obviously I couldn't take into account something like YOUNG DONALD because young Don has a smartphone and browses the web and that is a little too much if we think about adult Donald in Barks' production and even later, where he hardly owns a pc. Anyway, authors just have to adapt to their times and I don't like saying "no, that is not canonical because that other author has a different thought about it". I consider DuckTales (at least the new one) as a parallel universe, but comic-book Ducks are almost always them to me, assuming they behave the way we know them. And all the stories that I mention, with Donald and co. not considering Coot part of their family, have indeed a classic-style that would not clash anyway with Barks.
ps. I understand why you say that Rosa's work should be considered apart and I could agree since it is very strong on its own and hardly could be edited. I just took his decision to have Coot as an ancestor as an input to take the discussion further and to say: "hey, there is more! and, even though the Coot-Grandma link is really established among fans and *officially*, yet the most of Coot's appearances in comics shows the opposite." That is now, in 2021, and some authors in the 2010s still denied the relationship. Maybe in 100 years, if Don Rosa becomes canon for any author, I could say: "well, okay, Elvira Coot is not a bad name after all."
There's a paragraph that lists Cornelia Coot, Scrooge's butler Johann, and Umperio Bogarto as Cornelius' "true" relatives. The "true"-part might be a mistranslation of your article, but if it's not... What makes these three more true than Rosa's interpretation? As you yourself mentioned, Barks never made it explicit either way whether Cornelius was or was not Grandma's relative.
Still, at this point of the blog post, I had already listed the previous information and Rosa's interpretation should have become a minority inside the vast comic production. Yet, I am not saying that one's interpretation is more important or more right than another one. Simply, considering the 1940s-2010s production, the most of the authors stand against Rosa's vision and I decided to take that as my point to write the whole post. Having dismantled the Coot-Duck connection, I needed some true descendants in order to make it more complete, that is why I called them like that.
So, I guess my conclusion is that I disagree with yours. The answer to "Is Cornelius the grandfather of Grandma Duck" is (as you have spent your whole article proving) a bit more complicated than just a simple yes or no. In some stories (or traditions) he most certainly is, while in others, the two characters are unrelated. At this point, the "parallel universe interpretation" should be almost undeniable. That's the only way to reconcile the wildly different nature of the many Duck-stories... yet your article doesn't mention anything like that.
I think I replied earlier here, I just thought it was explicit enough not to mention it.
You do not seem to have any explanation to the fact that the two equally valid interpretations of Cornelius' lineage co-exist. You just say that both do exist, but only one of them is true. So how do you explain the stories in which the two characters are related? Are those stories just... lies?
We could just take into account your idea of the parallel Rosa-world and so authors who respect this relationship fits in it. But still, I don't want to express any preference and my research is just based on numbers of evidence and points to support. Don Rosa is a great author and probably the most known of all those that I mentioned in the post. If in some time his vision will become the *truth* for everybody I am okay with that. As of now, I believe it is necessary to give more information and I tried my best.