I will come back to a lot of what's been said, but --- isn't Ballestreros supposed to be an adult? She's a police officer, after all. I don't see why her have breasts is so objectionable (and besides, pretty much every other artist did the same). She's a mammal, so it makes biological sense. gestures at Lyla Lay and Kay K And it's not like they're changing a long-established design.
Not saying it's objectionable, I just found it funny that a character that was originally introduced as harsh/abrasive and, by appearance, very much NOT a typical 'pretty girl' (the typical Disney shorthand for women is almost completely absent from her) still got an "update" from Sciarrone, perhaps because there was no Jennifer Power character in "Calypso". Same goes for Lyla, by the way - Lavoradori's initial interpretation of her was nowhere near as suggestive as Sciarrone's version that became canon.
This sort of design fluctuation probably hurt MMMM just like it did Pk² (Tempest Gale)...
Yeah, changing a character's design that drastically should be considered a continuity error.
What is continuity when it comes to character designs? (By the way, Disney comics have no continuity also from a storytelling point of view, how many time do we have to remind the obvious on this forum?)
So, these here below are all continuity errors for you?
And what about this character here going in three years from this
to this?
And if you care about continuity of character design so much, why are you not complaining for the disappearance of Clarabelle's tail?
Where is the tail? Is it in her pants? Was it mutilated? Did she asked a plastic surgeon to get rid of it? How your continuity explains it?
Post by Monkey_Feyerabend on Jan 28, 2021 19:51:44 GMT
I apologise if the post above may sound harsh, but seriously, come on. If there is one franchise in the history of mankind that relies on any absence of narrative continuity and even more relevantly on the constant change of designs, that is Disney, especially on the Mickey/Donald regular cast. Animation as well as comics. Denying that things evolve in society and arbitrarily pick a moment of that evolution by saying 'this is the canon, everything diverging from it is an error of continuity' is what religions do. Why do you treat comics like religion? How that religious attitude increase your enjoyment of a medium or a genre? Do you realise that with this attitude we would not even have had Gottfredson, left alone Carl Barks! And above all, without the total freedom from any notion of continuity, we would have never had (the continuity of) Don Rosa, whose work would have been impossible. (Imagine him being obliged to follow a continuity where Fethry Duck, Mickey and breastless Clarabelle were canonically existing...not nice, right? Rosa would have remained a civil engineer!)
I would like point out that Clarabelle was portrayed with breasts in at least two classic shorts I can think of: Mickey's Amateurs and the remake of Orphans' Benefit. Still, I'm glad it didn't stick around -- it's overly sexualized for my tastes.
I didn't realize Sciarrone had such a big influence. The updated Lyla Lay looks a lot better than the prototype version IMO, but that's also because his art fits the series a lot better than Alberto Lavoradori's. As for MMMM, I don't mind the different artists all that much, they're all using the Italian house style.
I apologise if the post above may sound harsh, but seriously, come on. If there is one franchise in the history of mankind that relies on any absence of narrative continuity and even more relevantly on the constant change of designs, that is Disney, especially on the Mickey/Donald regular cast. Animation as well as comics. Denying that things evolve in society and arbitrarily pick a moment of that evolution by saying 'this is the canon, everything diverging from it is an error of continuity' is what religions do. Why do you treat comics like religion? How that religious attitude increase your enjoyment of a medium or a genre? Do you realise that with this attitude we would not even have had Gottfredson, left alone Carl Barks! And above all, without the total freedom from any notion of continuity, we would have never had (the continuity of) Don Rosa, whose work would have been impossible. (Imagine him being obliged to follow a continuity where Fethry Duck, Mickey and breastless Clarabelle were canonically existing...not nice, right? Rosa would have remained a civil engineer!)
Well, that's certainly a more substantial answer than I expected! So, first of all the different designs: If Mickey had a pale white face one day, and a peach one the next (in-universe), so that for example Goofy could say "Wow Mickey, the color of your skin just changed overnight!" and there's no logical explanation for it, then yes - by definition, that would be a continuity error. However, I would assume that these design changes are mostly out-of-universe; the characters don't see Mickey's skin color as having changed - they just see regular old Mickey.
However, in most stories Clarabelle has no breasts in-universe. But it seems that she's meant to have breasts in-universe in Sciarrone's story. If that's supposed to be the same incarnation of Clarabelle that hasn't had breasts before - then that's a continuity error (assuming she didn't have them surgically enlarged of course). But that's the difference here - In the world of these characters, there's (probably) no physical difference between Mickey's white and peach skin, whereas Clarabelle's breasts (probably) do exist in Sciarrone's story, whilst not existing in others. If Sciarrone's story takes place in a separate universe where Clarabelle has always had breasts, then that's fine - that's no continuity error.
Clarabelle's tail (and Goofy's and Pete's too) disappearing has always bothered me. I head-canon Donald's beak being large during the Gottfredson strips due to him being younger than his current status-quo age. Like a puberty-thing where his beak grows before the rest of his body. That still doesn't explain the sharper design of the early beak though. So to answer your question - I guess I'm not complaining about those things because it hasn't been relevant. Given the chance I would definitely complain about it. Although "complain" has a very negative connotation, so I'd phrase it differently. I'd criticize it.
I agree that Disney has a history of ignoring continuity. However, continuity is an important aspect of quality storytelling. Disney fails at that. That doesn't mean that every story that breaks continuity is automatically bad. Anyways, my point is that just because Disney has ignored continuity since forever, that doesn't mean that continuity as a concept is something bad. The result is that each story exists within its own bubble, its own universe. I'm just saying that I would prefer if that wasn't the case.
I don't know why you started talking about religion. How does a focus on continuity increase my enjoyment of these stories, you ask? Well, I guess the fact that Life & Times of Scrooge McDuck fits fairly well with Carl Barks' stories is pretty satisfying to me. When the connections works, it creates a sense of "reality" in the stories, it makes them feel more alive. It heightens my immersion. When things don't make sense, it takes me out of the story and I think to myself "wait, that doesn't make any sense". Of course, all of the stories involved would be just a tiny bit better if they all fit perfectly together.
I have not denied that things evolve in society - in fact, I'd love for the Ducks and Mice to move away from status quo storytelling. I like character development, and I like that Rosa firmly placed his version of the Ducks in the 1950s-timeframe. I sort of hinted at that in my earlier comment in this thread: I like the fact that Mickey goes from hobby-detective to having his own detective agency in the Anderville story.
I also don't understand what you mean with me arbitrarily picking things and calling them canon. I didn't use the term "canon", I used "continuity". If you're referring to me sort of implying that Clarabelle not having visible breasts would be the "canonical" version of her... well, then that's not arbitrary, since I'd wager that at least 90% of her character designs lack breasts.
I don't understand quite what you mean by Gottfredson and Barks' stories not having existed if they had to follow continuity, especially since many of Gottfredson's stories follow on from one another. Please explain further.
I don't understand your point about Don Rosa's work either. He very much tried to keep and to build on what little continuity Barks had established. And also, there's nothing explicit in Rosa's work that 100% denies the existence of Fethry, Mickey, and (breastless) Clarabelle. Sure, he occasionally implied that Mickey was a fictional character in his stories... But, if the editors said "you can't draw Mickey's face on those comics that Gladstone reads in that panel! Draw Super Snooper instead!", do you really think Rose would respond by saying "Eh, screw this comic-job, I'd rather be an engineer!" ?
I didn't realize Sciarrone had such a big influence. The updated Lyla Lay looks a lot better than the prototype version IMO, but that's also because his art fits the series a lot better than Alberto Lavoradori's. As for MMMM, I don't mind the different artists all that much, they're all using the Italian house style.
The irony is that Lavoradori was such an important ingredient of the PKNA series' creation. He came up with the Evronians (they were just a doodle, he didn't know what they were there for), he was approached to help create the series because of his work in the three Salvagnini space stories, and it was him who rejected a lot of the ideas that were already around because he felt they were too tame and too conservative.
So when you see Camera 9, Everett Ducklair, Xadhoom, the different types of Evronians... a lot of this sprang from Lavoradori's hand. The only main character I know was Sciarrone's is the Raider, and as already said he improved Lyla.
But Lyla is also a good example of visual continuity issues. Just look at her feet! Sometimes she has webbed feet like Donald, sometimes they look totally human.
Or moving out of the PKNA universe, look at how Chief O'Hara and Inspector Casey have changed over the years. Early Italian Casey looks a lot like Gottfredson's Casey, even Cavazzano's early Casey still has some similarity, but in later Cavazzano stories there's barely any semblance - the whole "snout" has shortened to a degree where he looks more like O'Hara.
Sciarrone has his own way of drawing, which is more 'realistic' (human) than, say, Cavazzano or Perina, and has some manga influences. This just leads to a different feel compared to most other artists. Not saying it's a bad thing but it can sometimes be a bit out of place/context.
As for something that actually bothers me, what happened to Peg-Leg Pete's peg-leg!!
As for something that actually bothers me, what happened to Peg-Leg Pete's peg-leg!!
Hehe, yes.
***
According to Wikipedia:
In Gottfredson's story "The Mystery at Hidden River" (1941–42), the pegleg disappeared, with Pete having two normal legs: when Mickey expressed surprise at this, Pete described one of his legs as a new, "streamlined, modern" artificial leg.
I haven't read the story in question, so I don't know for sure if that's true. But if it is true - at least they acknowledged it and didn't brush it off like it didn't happened. It's an acceptable explanation.
As for something that actually bothers me, what happened to Peg-Leg Pete's peg-leg!!
Oh, that's an easy one: He changed it with a leg-and-foot-shaped prosthesis back in 1941! Pete explain the change himself in the 21st October Mickey Mouse strip of that year, during the Mystery At Hidden River story
EDIT:
Sorry, guys, I just noticed that others have replied before me
Cool. I've not read a lot of Gottfredson but will be remedying that. I do know that some early Italian stories also depicted him with the peg-leg.
I feel I owe this thread an image of Jennifer Power from MMMM... beware, here's Sciarrone!
[image]
See, I don't mind the drawing style so much. I'm a Dutchie, I like clean lines of action. Can't say... not sure if it was Perina or Zironi's story, I'd have to look it up. What I didn't much care for were the blatant sexualizing remarks from the bar patrons... and Mickey? That felt very out of place in a Disney comic.
Cool. I've not read a lot of Gottfredson but will be remedying that. I do know that some early Italian stories also depicted him with the peg-leg.
I feel I owe this thread an image of Jennifer Power from MMMM... beware, here's Sciarrone!
[image]
See, I don't mind the drawing style so much. I'm a Dutchie, I like clean lines of action. Can't say... not sure if it was Perina or Zironi's story, I'd have to look it up. What I didn't much care for were the blatant sexualizing remarks from the bar patrons... and Mickey? That felt very out of place in a Disney comic.
Not sure what you're referring to, but after this scene & Jennifer leaves the bar again, Mickey has to explain to the barflies that she's just a client and that she probably is not going to bring along a girlfriend for each of them
I'm one of the MMMM fans on this forum - so much, in fact, that in a moment of sheer fandom, I wrote a script, probably never to be drawn, for a 13th chapter "Return to Anderville" and had some ideas how things could be continued.
I'd love to see that. In fact, I should probably make a "fan writer" thread in the lounge section.
Not saying it's objectionable, I just found it funny that a character that was originally introduced as harsh/abrasive and, by appearance, very much NOT a typical 'pretty girl' (the typical Disney shorthand for women is almost completely absent from her) still got an "update" from Sciarrone, perhaps because there was no Jennifer Power character in "Calypso". Same goes for Lyla, by the way - Lavoradori's initial interpretation of her was nowhere near as suggestive as Sciarrone's version that became canon.
That Sara Fox character mentioned earlier seems to be a bit of a retool of Patty Ballestreros, no?
The irony is that Lavoradori was such an important ingredient of the PKNA series' creation. He came up with the Evronians (they were just a doodle, he didn't know what they were there for), he was approached to help create the series because of his work in the three Salvagnini space stories, and it was him who rejected a lot of the ideas that were already around because he felt they were too tame and too conservative.
So when you see Camera 9, Everett Ducklair, Xadhoom, the different types of Evronians... a lot of this sprang from Lavoradori's hand. The only main character I know was Sciarrone's is the Raider, and as already said he improved Lyla.
Interesting... I didn't know that! I know it's pretty common in Italy to provide some background info on how the comics are made, but in Holland this never happens! The artists don't even get credits.
Lavoradori may have have a big impact on the series, I just think his artstyle wasn't very suited to it. Probably why he didn't do any others after the pilot.
But Lyla is also a good example of visual continuity issues. Just look at her feet! Sometimes she has webbed feet like Donald, sometimes they look totally human.
Brilliant, the Gyro Effect! Once you create a human-sized bird, nobody knows what to do with their feet.
Or moving out of the PKNA universe, look at how Chief O'Hara and Inspector Casey have changed over the years. Early Italian Casey looks a lot like Gottfredson's Casey, even Cavazzano's early Casey still has some similarity, but in later Cavazzano stories there's barely any semblance - the whole "snout" has shortened to a degree where he looks more like O'Hara.
There should be a middle ground here. Some authors make Casey look almost like a generic dogface, thin and mustache-less. That's too much.
Not sure what you're referring to, but after this scene & Jennifer leaves the bar again, Mickey has to explain to the barflies that she's just a client and that she probably is not going to bring along a girlfriend for each of them
I coulda sworn there was something else... Ha! Must've been my imagination.
Not saying it's objectionable, I just found it funny that a character that was originally introduced as harsh/abrasive and, by appearance, very much NOT a typical 'pretty girl' (the typical Disney shorthand for women is almost completely absent from her) still got an "update" from Sciarrone, perhaps because there was no Jennifer Power character in "Calypso". Same goes for Lyla, by the way - Lavoradori's initial interpretation of her was nowhere near as suggestive as Sciarrone's version that became canon.
That Sara Fox character mentioned earlier seems to be a bit of a retool of Patty Ballestreros, no?
In the sense that she's young, works for the police & can kick some WAK, yes. Other than that there are some differences. Sara is fresh from police school at the beginning of her tenure in Mouseton, and the others tend to pick on her a bit, but she turns out to be quite good with modern digital methods.
The irony is that Lavoradori was such an important ingredient of the PKNA series' creation. He came up with the Evronians (they were just a doodle, he didn't know what they were there for), he was approached to help create the series because of his work in the three Salvagnini space stories, and it was him who rejected a lot of the ideas that were already around because he felt they were too tame and too conservative.
So when you see Camera 9, Everett Ducklair, Xadhoom, the different types of Evronians... a lot of this sprang from Lavoradori's hand. The only main character I know was Sciarrone's is the Raider, and as already said he improved Lyla.
Interesting... I didn't know that! I know it's pretty common in Italy to provide some background info on how the comics are made, but in Holland this never happens! The artists don't even get credits.
Lavoradori may have have a big impact on the series, I just think his artstyle wasn't very suited to it. Probably why he didn't do any others after the pilot.
There isn't that much available in German either. Most of that information I know comes from Italian websites, translated with Google... there is really a wealth of information about (especially) PKNA & MMMM. Like the fact that the architecture of Anderville was mostly conceived by Silvio Camboni, and that the city was initially called Underville, which was then changed to something phonetically similar but a bit more tame sounding.
Well, I finally finished the series. I'll never have to see Jan Clayton's face again!
I could stomach the second half better than the first, maybe because I'd gotten used to Anderville, maybe because there was no overarching plot. By the time Mickey and Patty set up a detective agency together, I felt like all the elements were in place for a good formula, but they didn't really do very much with it until the very last story. That's my take on it: telling an episodic story in this fashion didn't really work, whereas if they'd started with a formula and worked variations in it from there, that would've given the readers a much more solid grasp. I direct you to the first season of Phineas and Ferb for how to establish a formula.
One thing I was surprised by in MMMM was just how many concepts and ideas found its way into the series. From the AI hypertrain to the Arcade Street, there was always a lot going on. On the flip side, it did feel like Anderville was never properly finished: they kept adding district after district each story. (And Chinatown being called Chinaville in another story is... oof.) Anderville was a good pilot in the sense that it gave us the tone of the series, but it didn't really give a material sense of the dimensions of Anderville, apart from that one double-spread. It's a shame, 'cause I feel it would have felt more layered had we gone back to the same neighborhoods. Chinatown and the Arcade Gallery are one of the few, few exceptions. I know this series was planned out in advance, so I'm sure they had some worldbuilding in mind. We didn't need three different uptown neighborhoods! Again, this is why going to Estrelita in the third story was a bad idea, especially since Mickey was still explicitly under house arrest at that point.
So here's a brief overview of what I thought of the stories. They were always interesting, even if they were bad, which is more than I can say from a lot of comics. I'm not addressing plot holes and loose ends, because I'd be here all day.
Anderville. Great teaser, good framing device, excellent climax. Considerably less up its own *** than later stories. I was expecting more from Roscoe, given that he manages to knock Mickey out in his office and threatens his life, but nothing comes of it. I also expected more from the Professor and Vera and their intertwined pasts. I had a feeling Vera was a double agent, but that turned out to be totally unfounded. 5/10
The Link. Overly violent and hypermasculine for a Disney comic. Leopold Millighan is badly introduced, foreshadowing his role as the most boring and generic villain this series has to offer. This is also where the series' awkward love affair with multiculturalism begins. The main villain, a currupt cop, comes and goes far too quickly. No further inquiries to the rotten apple in the police department are made. 2/10
Estrelita. Despite constant threats of mortal danger the moment Mickey leaves the city, Mickey leaves the city. For the first time, we meet some people we can actually trust, the Feds. Mickey socks Sonny Mitchell. The Little Caesar barflowers beat some minor criminals to a pulp. 1/10
Lost & Found. I liked the addition of the outsider/yokel character. Not sure why Mickey is constantly in fighting arenas during sleuthing hours. Loved the arcade area. Not sure why this story is the one to introduce the evil triumvirate. The case is a bit Big Lebowski, which is not a bad thing, although it does add to this series' questionable depictions of gender. Sciarrone's artwork is among the better in this series. 4/10
Mousetrap. Mickey participates in a bank robbery. Zironi's artwork is some of the ugliest in the series. I'm getting tired of writers obviously trying to put Mickey Mouse in situations where he doesn't belong. It's so adolescent. 2/10
Firestorm. While under witness protection, Mickey is temporarily housed in a fishing village across the river. I liked the history, but I would have preferred to stay in court and go to the fishing village another day. Get me some of that 12 Angry Men action. 3/10
Calypso. Mickey disguises himself as an inmate to get into jail. It's the last we hear of Lasswell and Gump. Disappointing ending to this series. 4/10
Black Mask. Mickey takes a new high-speed train to Mouseton, which goes haywire. It's very Orient Express, which is not a bad thing. Staying in the same location for a bit means we can actually take some time to solve the mystery. A love a good locked room mystery. And this was a fine locked room mystery. Oh and Patty Ballestreros leaves the police department, and promptly gets sidelined for two episodes. 6/10
Victoria. Another 'history of Anderville' mystery, this time better integrated into the present-day plot. The fact that there's a criminal whose life work has just been forging new identities is a level of OP that pretty much breaks the Anderville universe if you think about it for a bit. Finally we learn what that ugly statue is for. I was hoping for something more spectacular, but I like the human element in this story. 7/10
Run run run. Some crazy fan plants bombs along the Anderville Marathon for Mickey to solve and defuse. The 28th Police Department is really holding the idiot ball in this one. Not sure why Mickey thought he could actually run a marathon while defusing bombs. 5/10
The Dark Side. A paramilitary citizens militia is going nuts, thanks to the machinations of yet another corrupt police inspector at the 28th department. Also Tomoka Marshall is back for some reason. 3/10
Small World. Mickey and Patty solve different ends of the same case. There's a duo of incompetent robbers who end up being the key to everything. Clever construction. Camboni's art style is probably the most fitting of the series. 8/10