In H 26018 Gyro mentions his great-granduncle Gilbert Meloen.
In D 5570, Donald mentions three past generals in his family. In Dutch they are called Bibberhart Duck, O. Vergave Duck, and Pardon Duck. In response, Gladstone mentions three past generals from his own family: Mazzelstaart Geluk, Hazehart Geluk, and Opgoed Geluk. It is not said in the story when they have lived and there are no pictures of them. I don't know their original names.
In H 25127 there is a portrait of Daisy’s cousin Sjarel.
In H 26196, Donald initially thinks that he is a direct descendant of the Graaf van Zouteveer tot Palingdons (a “graaf” is a “count”). Later it is discovered that Graaf van Zouteveer tot Palingdons is actually the name of a pub from 1621, and that Donald is a direct descendant of the pub owner. The name of the owner is not given in the story and there is no image of him.
In I TL 1969-B, Donald gets an inheritance from his uncle who turns out to be a vampire. In the German translation that I read, no name is given except for Graf, which just means count. Is there a name in the Italian version?
There are also (probably) some relatives in the following stories (at least, according to posts from that closed down forum), but I have not yet been able to check these:
Speaking of translation issues and also Danblane: His original name if Pap McPaper. McPaper is not Scrooge's Italian surname. Should Danblane be placed as maybe Maura's uncle or maybe Locksley's wife's grand-uncle? (If Danblane is moved, I believe he works as Maura's uncle/father. She's depicted on a boat and he is a pirate... that being said, I haven't read the story featuring Maura, so maybe her standing on a boat is merely incidental.)
Maybe we can create a separate McPaper branch on the tree, that somewhere connects via one of Scrooge’s ancestors (for example via Anatrone’s wife, who is currently unnamed), since we have many other McPapers as well.
There is Paper McPaper (from I TL 158-B and I TL 1396-AP). He is already on the tree, but while he is said to be an ancestor in these stories, he is not really related to Scrooge on the tree currently (just a father in law of an cousin/aunt of Scrooge). He should maybe be connected a little more directly.
There is Jacob from I TL 2183-5, who is currently on the tree as Jacob McDuck but should actually be called Jacob McPaper.
There is a ghost ancestor of Scrooge called McPaper in I TL 2345-6, who was mentioned in a post before, but who is currently not on the tree.
There is also Red MacPaper I PM 171-3, who was also mentioned before, but who is also not on the tree yet.
There is Gideon McPaper from I TL 1326-A, who lived somewhere in the 1500s, so he also needs to be added if the tree is further extended.
In all honesty—if our collective goal is to create a family tree that could theoretically work as a guide for comics creators, as well as for fans—I don't think the surname "McPaper," or other surnames that include "Paper," work very well in English.
"Paperino" in Italian originates as a word for gosling ("papero" being another one), because before World War II Donald was locally interpreted in Italy as being a goose. In English, however, "paper" simply suggests sheets of paper. As a writer, I would no more use "paper" as a Duck family surname than I would "spaghetti"; it feels like it has story- or character-specific meaning, and if it doesn't, it's just peculiar.
Should we consider somehow de-Italianizing the Italian surnames, or at least implying they probably aren't what they would be in English?
(Switzerland was another country, by the way, in which Donald was originally a goose—and Goofy purportedly a mule, though he doesn't really have the right kind of nose to be one!)
In all honesty—if our collective goal is to create a family tree that could theoretically work as a guide for comics creators, as well as for fans—I don't think the surname "McPaper," or other surnames that include "Paper," work very well in English.
"Paperino" in Italian originates as a word for gosling ("papero" being another one), because before World War II Donald was locally interpreted in Italy as being a goose. In English, however, "paper" simply suggests sheets of paper. As a writer, I would no more use "paper" as a Duck family surname than I would "spaghetti"; it feels like it has story- or character-specific meaning, and if it doesn't, it's just peculiar.
Should we consider somehow de-Italianizing the Italian surnames, or at least implying they probably aren't what they would be in English?
(Switzerland was another country, by the way, in which Donald was originally a goose—and Goofy purportedly a mule, though he doesn't really have the right kind of nose to be one!)
I agree that using non-English names is not optimal. However, in the case of Danblane, using "McDuck" would also be confusing, as that is a mistranslation.
Another option would be to invent English-sounding fake names for the characters. I do not vote for this option, as I always intended for this tree to be based on actual information, rather than "fan-fiction" so to speak.
Yet another option is to still use the non-English name (in this case McPaper) and simply color code it to indicate that it is not the characters' "real" English name. I think this is the best option.
I agree it would be better to have other names, but I don't think inventing English names is the best solution here. There is an English translation of the Gone with the Wind story. Does anyone know how Paper McPaper is called in here? Or is it just a McDuck?
In all honesty—if our collective goal is to create a family tree that could theoretically work as a guide for comics creators, as well as for fans—I don't think the surname "McPaper," or other surnames that include "Paper," work very well in English.
"Paperino" in Italian originates as a word for gosling ("papero" being another one), because before World War II Donald was locally interpreted in Italy as being a goose. In English, however, "paper" simply suggests sheets of paper. As a writer, I would no more use "paper" as a Duck family surname than I would "spaghetti"; it feels like it has story- or character-specific meaning, and if it doesn't, it's just peculiar.
Should we consider somehow de-Italianizing the Italian surnames, or at least implying they probably aren't what they would be in English?
(Switzerland was another country, by the way, in which Donald was originally a goose—and Goofy purportedly a mule, though he doesn't really have the right kind of nose to be one!)
While your argument absolutely makes sense, I think the issue is that a lot of names have slight variations: There's McPap, McPaper, Paperone, de'Paperoni, McPaperon, de Paperonier, O'Paper... and so on
Personally, I'd be against Anglicizing the names regardless, but even if we did, it's something that would be very difficult to work with - we can't just substitute 'Paper' with 'Goose/Gosling' because those are already taken. We can't substitute 'Paper' with 'Duck' because Paperone is McDuck, McPaper is something else. The sheer number of names that have some play on 'Paper' makes it a very difficult affair - I wouldn't object if that's how it was handled, but it certainly wouldn't be easy
As for implying that the names are non-English, that's part of what the 'Country of Origin' section in the index is for; it's not perfect, because of the Denmark/Foreign Market Stories characters, but otherwise, it should be a decent enough indicator? If there's anything I can add on the index, though, feel free to let me know!
Resident autistic, diabetic duck fan.
I love hearing about bizarre/obscure Disney works - recommendations welcome!
In S 82050, Grandma tells the kids some story about an ancestor of them. In the Brazilian version, he is called by HDL "Vovô Jeremias" (which means grandfather in Portuguese), while he is referenced as "Bisnonno Geremia" (great-grandfather) in the Italian version.
Anyway, I think it shouldn't supposed to be their own g-grandfather (which would mean him being Grandma's husband), rather Donald's, making him Grandma's father at the least.
I can confirm Gladstone's mentioning his grandfather also in the Brazilian translation, will check the Italian one soon. Will also check D 8250.
The grandfather is also mentioned in the Italian translation. And, in D 8250, Scrooge mentions his prozio (great-uncle) Manibuche, which is the same Italian name for uncle Pothole.
In S 82050, Grandma tells the kids some story about an ancestor of them. In the Brazilian version, he is called by HDL "Vovô Jeremias" (which means grandfather in Portuguese), while he is referenced as "Bisnonno Geremia" (great-grandfather) in the Italian version.
Anyway, I think it shouldn't supposed to be their own g-grandfather (which would mean him being Grandma's husband), rather Donald's, making him Grandma's father at the least.
Maybe it could be Elvira's great-grandfather? I mean, she's the one telling the story, right? If that is a valid interpretation, I think that would work best for the family tree. We already have a name for Elvira's father (Clinton) and both of her grandfathers (Cornelius and Donaldo). On the other hand, out of her four great-grandfathers, we only have a name for two of them (Jeroen and Pataco). So if possible, this Jeremias/Geremia could be either Gertrude Ganzenlever's husband or Donaldo Gadwall's father.
I have the Swedish version of this one! Donald's "paternal grandmother's paternal uncle" (named Agapetus Anka in Swedish) has died and has named Donald as his heir. That would mean that Agapetus is Clinton Coot's brother (also, he should be named Agapetus Knös in Swedish, but whatever).
I have put now a list of the composite characters on the website, providing sources on where they come from and some pictures. There are quite a lot, so I might have still missed some, and there might still be an error in there. With the next update of the tree, I will change the links for these composite characters, so that the link goes to the relevant entry on this web page.
In S 82050, Grandma tells the kids some story about an ancestor of them. In the Brazilian version, he is called by HDL "Vovô Jeremias" (which means grandfather in Portuguese), while he is referenced as "Bisnonno Geremia" (great-grandfather) in the Italian version.
Anyway, I think it shouldn't supposed to be their own g-grandfather (which would mean him being Grandma's husband), rather Donald's, making him Grandma's father at the least.
Maybe it could be Elvira's great-grandfather?
I doubt it, because that would imply that the story happened a long time ago. Sure, nothing hints to the opposite, but it would seem off to me, as it looks like something happening in Grandma's youth or little before she was born. Anyway, "bisnonno" might be here intended as a generic "ancestor" and not literally as "grandfather's father"... but I don't know the author's intention.
Speaking of translation issues and also Danblane: His original name if Pap McPaper. McPaper is not Scrooge's Italian surname. Should Danblane be placed as maybe Maura's uncle or maybe Locksley's wife's grand-uncle? (If Danblane is moved, I believe he works as Maura's uncle/father. She's depicted on a boat and he is a pirate... that being said, I haven't read the story featuring Maura, so maybe her standing on a boat is merely incidental.)
Maybe we can create a separate McPaper branch on the tree, that somewhere connects via one of Scrooge’s ancestors (for example via Anatrone’s wife, who is currently unnamed), since we have many other McPapers as well.
There is Paper McPaper (from I TL 158-B and I TL 1396-AP). He is already on the tree, but while he is said to be an ancestor in these stories, he is not really related to Scrooge on the tree currently (just a father in law of an cousin/aunt of Scrooge). He should maybe be connected a little more directly.
There is Jacob from I TL 2183-5, who is currently on the tree as Jacob McDuck but should actually be called Jacob McPaper.
There is a ghost ancestor of Scrooge called McPaper in I TL 2345-6, who was mentioned in a post before, but who is currently not on the tree.
There is also Red MacPaper I PM 171-3, who was also mentioned before, but who is also not on the tree yet.
There is Gideon McPaper from I TL 1326-A, who lived somewhere in the 1500s, so he also needs to be added if the tree is further extended.
And then of course Pap McPaper (Danblane).
I think this is a good idea, but as Ramapith pointed out, these "paper" names just don't work for an English-language tree. Here's an overly ambitious idea: a button or switch of sorts that allows the viewer of the interactive tree to switch between viewing the "official names" version that only uses names that have been officially used in a comic and gives strong preference to original publications or original language of the author and, alternatively, viewing the "fan names" or "translated names" version which anglicizes names without an official translation, thereby making it clear that whatever "translation" of McPaper we come up with is not an official translation of "McPaper" while also making it clear that "McPaper" is not a name that any author writing in English should use (EVER). I've noticed that there's quite a few names on the tree that would benefit from being "anglicized" a bit to make the tree actually feel like the family tree of an American duck in the 20th century instead of an encyclopedia of characters created by authors from around the world writing in many different trees. This tree is really both an in-universe family tree and real-world encyclopedia (especially with the addition of alquackskey's spreadsheet), which makes issues like this complex.
LP is right that any English version to "McPaper" that we come up with will be fanfiction, but Ramapith is right that using "McPaper" is awkward and weird on an English language tree. It would be cool if we could somehow have both and a way to signal that "McPaper" is the most official and original name while [INSERT NAME HERE] is a reasonable -- albeit unofficial -- English equivalent.
If it is decided to come up with a fan-made translation of "McPaper" for the tree, then I'd recommend either "MacGoose" or "McFowl." MacGoose is a surname already in use on the tree as the maiden name of Scrooge's maternal grandmother, Jenny O' Drake (formerly Jenny MacGoose, based on the research for this tree). Paper McPaper (hmm... Bruce MacGoose? Goose MacGoose?) could perhaps be Oscar's brother, and Jacob MacGoose could be his great-grandson.
As for McFowl, let's remember that Rumpus McFowl was originally Scrooge's cousin, which I have always taken to mean that they are somehow related outside of their shared father. On the tree currently, Rumpus's mother's maiden name is McFowl, but what if instead McFowl is changed to the name of a stepfather who married Rumpus's mother when Rumpus was just a wee bairn and who was also a cousin of one of Scrooge's parents? Looking at the tree, though, I can't find a good place to plug in a whole "McFowl" branch in a way that Rumpus and Scrooge would be "cousins" and that Scrooge could be a descendant of Danblane. Maybe Anatrone O'Drake's wife's maiden name could be McFowl? Perhaps Paper McPaper (Dowell McFowl? Fowl McFowl? Foul McFowl?) could be her brother with Jacob McFowl as his great-grandson and Rumpus McFowl as his step-great-grandson (the son of his grandson's wife via her marriage to Fergus).
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Maybe we can create a separate McPaper branch on the tree, that somewhere connects via one of Scrooge’s ancestors (for example via Anatrone’s wife, who is currently unnamed), since we have many other McPapers as well.
There is Paper McPaper (from I TL 158-B and I TL 1396-AP). He is already on the tree, but while he is said to be an ancestor in these stories, he is not really related to Scrooge on the tree currently (just a father in law of an cousin/aunt of Scrooge). He should maybe be connected a little more directly.
There is Jacob from I TL 2183-5, who is currently on the tree as Jacob McDuck but should actually be called Jacob McPaper.
There is a ghost ancestor of Scrooge called McPaper in I TL 2345-6, who was mentioned in a post before, but who is currently not on the tree.
There is also Red MacPaper I PM 171-3, who was also mentioned before, but who is also not on the tree yet.
There is Gideon McPaper from I TL 1326-A, who lived somewhere in the 1500s, so he also needs to be added if the tree is further extended.
And then of course Pap McPaper (Danblane).
I think this is a good idea, but as Ramapith pointed out, these "paper" names just don't work for an English-language tree. Here's an overly ambitious idea: a button or switch of sorts that allows the viewer of the interactive tree to switch between viewing the "official names" version that only uses names that have been officially used in a comic and gives strong preference to original publications or original language of the author and, alternatively, viewing the "fan names" or "translated names" version which anglicizes names without an official translation, thereby making it clear that whatever "translation" of McPaper we come up with is not an official translation of "McPaper" while also making it clear that "McPaper" is not a name that any author writing in English should use (EVER). I've noticed that there's quite a few names on the tree that would benefit from being "anglicized" a bit to make the tree actually feel like the family tree of an American duck in the 20th century instead of an encyclopedia of characters created by authors from around the world writing in many different trees. This tree is really both an in-universe family tree and real-world encyclopedia (especially with the addition of alquackskey 's spreadsheet), which makes issues like this complex.
LP is right that any English version to "McPaper" that we come up with will be fanfiction, but Ramapith is right that using "McPaper" is awkward and weird on an English language tree. It would be cool if we could somehow have both and a way to signal that "McPaper" is the most official and original name while [INSERT NAME HERE] is a reasonable -- albeit unofficial -- English equivalent.
If it is decided to come up with a fan-made translation of "McPaper" for the tree, then I'd recommend either "MacGoose" or "McFowl." MacGoose is a surname already in use on the tree as the maiden name of Scrooge's maternal grandmother, Jenny O' Drake (formerly Jenny MacGoose, based on the research for this tree). Paper McPaper (hmm... Bruce MacGoose? Goose MacGoose?) could perhaps be Oscar's brother, and Jacob MacGoose could be his great-grandson.
As for McFowl, let's remember that Rumpus McFowl was originally Scrooge's cousin, which I have always taken to mean that they are somehow related outside of their shared father. On the tree currently, Rumpus's mother's maiden name is McFowl, but what if instead McFowl is changed to the name of a stepfather who married Rumpus's mother when Rumpus was just a wee bairn and who was also a cousin of one of Scrooge's parents? Looking at the tree, though, I can't find a good place to plug in a whole "McFowl" branch in a way that Rumpus and Scrooge would be "cousins" and that Scrooge could be a descendant of Danblane. Maybe Anatrone O'Drake's wife's maiden name could be McFowl? Perhaps Paper McPaper (Dowell McFowl? Fowl McFowl? Foul McFowl?) could be her brother with Jacob McFowl as his great-grandson and Rumpus McFowl as his step-great-grandson (the son of his grandson's wife via her marriage to Fergus).
I'll admit, I haven't got much to add - but I'd be willing to go back over my notes and sources and add a section to the main tree index for names in other languages
No guarantees on how many I could find, of course, but I'm happy to go through what I have if this is something people want to have added moving forward
Resident autistic, diabetic duck fan.
I love hearing about bizarre/obscure Disney works - recommendations welcome!
I think this is a good idea, but as Ramapith pointed out, these "paper" names just don't work for an English-language tree. Here's an overly ambitious idea: a button or switch of sorts that allows the viewer of the interactive tree to switch between viewing the "official names" version that only uses names that have been officially used in a comic and gives strong preference to original publications or original language of the author and, alternatively, viewing the "fan names" or "translated names" version which anglicizes names without an official translation, thereby making it clear that whatever "translation" of McPaper we come up with is not an official translation of "McPaper" while also making it clear that "McPaper" is not a name that any author writing in English should use (EVER). I've noticed that there's quite a few names on the tree that would benefit from being "anglicized" a bit to make the tree actually feel like the family tree of an American duck in the 20th century instead of an encyclopedia of characters created by authors from around the world writing in many different trees. This tree is really both an in-universe family tree and real-world encyclopedia (especially with the addition of alquackskey 's spreadsheet), which makes issues like this complex.
I think that an interactive tree with changeable names is a good idea. But as you say also ambitious: we need translations for all those names, and the file itself would need to be made interactive. So, I cannnot do that for the next update of the tree. For the moment I can give all non-English names a different color, as LP suggested. Then it's also clear which names would need to have a translation.