There's a few minor things I noticed, before i forget:
- As for the composite character 'Roger O'Drake', I should mention that the portrait you currently have for him on the tree is identified as Scrooge's 'ancestor', not necessarily his grandfather--so he could also be a few more genrations back. Also, in the story where is name is from ('Roger McDuck') he was Scrooge's great-grandfather, I believe.
- Sholto Goose, who is currently on the tree as Luke the Goose's brother, is actually identified as a 'distant cousin' to Donald and HDL. So he probably shouldn't be on the Goose side, since they are no blood relation to the ducks.
- Donald McDuck, who is currently on the tree as a cousin of Scrooge's father, is actually identified as a 'direct uncle' to Scrooge, so he is more likely a brother of Fergus, instead.
- Also, I just remembered that in that Les Miserables parody, Scrooge's ancestor from that story (you have him as Silas McDuck's brother) adopts Cosette (Daisy lookalike), who in turn marries a Donald lookalike, and at the end we see their many children. I guess they should be included in the tree, as well (although I suppose it would complicate the McDuck side even further).
There's a few minor things I noticed, before i forget:
- As for the composite character 'Roger O'Drake', I should mention that the portrait you currently have for him on the tree is identified as Scrooge's 'ancestor', not necessarily his grandfather--so he could also be a few more genrations back. Also, in the story where is name is from ('Roger McDuck') he was Scrooge's great-grandfather, I believe.
As for the story in which Roger is mentioned (I TL 994-A), I have never read the story and I don't know exactly why it was ever decided to put Roger where he is now (and I don't know exactly what family connection is mentioned). But I believe that it is the same story in which Morag McDuck is mentioned and the connection with Rockerduck is made. So any changes in the position of Roger, may maybe also influence the positions of other characters on the tree (which is a little complicated since Scrooge and Rockerduck have multiple shared relatives).
As for the portrait (from S 71098); I had understood that Scrooge was talking somewhere in this story about his grandfather, while in another panel he was talking about his ancestors while pointing at that portrait, and that the two panels together have been interpreted as that the panel might be Scrooge's grandfather. But it is of course an S-coded story, so different translations of the story might maybe result in different interpretations.
- Sholto Goose, who is currently on the tree as Luke the Goose's brother, is actually identified as a 'distant cousin' to Donald and HDL. So he probably shouldn't be on the Goose side, since they are no blood relation to the ducks.
Sholto is a distant cousin of Donald on the tree. Sholto's grandfather is Gus Goose (the one from I TL 683-A) and Gus Goose's maternal grandfather is Crockett Duck, who is also Donald's direct ancestor. So they are fourth cousins or so.
- Donald McDuck, who is currently on the tree as a cousin of Scrooge's father, is actually identified as a 'direct uncle' to Scrooge, so he is more likely a brother of Fergus, instead.
If I remember correctly, he was ever put where he is now to make him a nephew of Scrooge's grandfather. In this way he is "kind of" merged with the Donald from I TL 755-A in which he is the nephew of Scrooge's grandfather Paperhone. Even though it might not really make much sense canonically.
- Also, I just remembered that in that Les Miserables parody, Scrooge's ancestor from that story (you have him as Silas McDuck's brother) adopts Cosette (Daisy lookalike), who in turn marries a Donald lookalike, and at the end we see their many children. I guess they should be included in the tree, as well (although I suppose it would complicate the McDuck side even further).
It was ever decided to ignore all adoptions. We can of course change that and include adoptions as well, but then there are several more that need to be added.
I know that you may not agree with me, but I would advise that all the McPapers/MacPapers/MacPaperons etc... just be plain McDucks.
I know the last name does not coincide with Scrooge's Italian one, thus making it seem they should be from another branch, but they very often are relatives from Scotland and that is only a way the writers has to indicate they come from there, since "de' Paperoni" does not sound very Scottish.
There's a few minor things I noticed, before i forget:
- As for the composite character 'Roger O'Drake', I should mention that the portrait you currently have for him on the tree is identified as Scrooge's 'ancestor', not necessarily his grandfather--so he could also be a few more genrations back. Also, in the story where is name is from ('Roger McDuck') he was Scrooge's great-grandfather, I believe.
As for the story in which Roger is mentioned (I TL 994-A), I have never read the story and I don't know exactly why it was ever decided to put Roger where he is now (and I don't know exactly what family connection is mentioned).
Here’s the image from sim’s blog where the story is discussed:
- Sholto Goose, who is currently on the tree as Luke the Goose's brother, is actually identified as a 'distant cousin' to Donald and HDL. So he probably shouldn't be on the Goose side, since they are no blood relation to the ducks.
Sholto is a distant cousin of Donald on the tree. Sholto's grandfather is Gus Goose (the one from I TL 683-A) and Gus Goose's maternal grandfather is Crockett Duck, who is also Donald's direct ancestor. So they are fourth cousins or so.
You’re absolutely right, I stand corrected! I hadn’t noticed that Gus’s great-Grandpa was related to the Ducks, too. That makes Sholto and Donald fourth cousins once removed. Upon reading the story, I thought that Sholto would’ve fit on the Von Drake side of the family, as he is a bit of an absent-minded academic like Ludwig (and that would make him more closely related to Donald). But your point is totally valid. Speaking of the Von Drakes-shouldn’t Baldo be Ludwig’s grandson rather than great-grandson? In “Fly with Von Drake”, Ludwig is implied to be about about early 60s (he was a young child in 1904, and was drafted into the army in 1917, while the special is from 1963), which seems about right. If Baldo is fresh out of university (early 20s), that would mean Ludwig became a great-grandpa in his early 40s! I’d say grandfather is more likely.
- In that Marco Rota story with cousin Ian McDuck (this one: inducks.org/story.php?c=D+2008-090 ), I’m pretty sure there were a number of other unnamed McDucks (Scrooge is attending some sort of McDuck reunion, I believe). I’ll check if I still have the issue with that story somewhere. - Daisy’s ancestor, the Duchess of Duckshire appears in a newspaper comic ( inducks.org/story.php?c=ZD+73-02-11 ). Daisy already has an uncle Bertrand who has blue blood too, so I’d say the Duchess is on his side od he family. I’m assuming she’s a parody of the Duchess of Devonshire, who lived from 1757-1806, so that would still be within the tree’s timeline. - Scrooge’s unnamed ancestors seen on portraits in this one pager: inducks.org/story.php?c=H+2018-253 .
And then there are some other stories that may contain relatives, but I don't have the issues they appear in not with me here to check: In H 91115, there might be a portrait of Donald’s uncle Kare[…]. In H 92146, there might be a portrait of Scrooge’s uncle Jaap. In H 93089, there might be a portrait of Scrooge’s great-uncle Abel.
In H 91115, the uncle of Donald is probably called Karel. The portrait itself is mostly covered by a text balloon.
In H 92146, there is indeed a portrait of an uncle of Scrooge called Jaap. However, the portrait cannot really be seen, because it is also covered by a text balloon. Since Jaap is the Dutch name for Jake McDuck, we can maybe just assume that this is him.
In H 93089, there is indeed a portrait of a granduncle of Scrooge called Abel, though also this portrait is (partly) covered: by the title in the Dutch publication.
There are also (probably) some relatives in the following stories (at least, according to posts from that closed down forum), but I have not yet been able to check these:
In H 91152, there is a portrait of a cousin of Donald called Arend-Jan.
In D 91167, great-granduncle Roderik Duck is mentioned (in the Dutch translation, in the Brazilian translation it is Tio Pato Roderich). It is not exactly clear whose great-granduncle it is, but I assume it is Scrooge’s. There is also a flashback of him in the story.
In H 95018, there is a portrait of a granduncle of Donald called Sibbe.
Furthermore, in H 26054, there is a portrait of an uncle of Donald, but his name is unreadable in my Dutch print.
I've noticed all the descendants of Cornelius Coot from H 2011-362. The so-called "descendants" of Johannes Coot from H 87180 are not mentioned but it's unclear in the story whether all the islanders are descendants of Johannes, or whether it's just a figure of speech. The one character who explicitly mentions they're descendants of Johannes is a dognose, so I'm not sure how literal that is...
The way I interpreted this story is that those islanders are descendants of the people who were on the same ship as Johannes, and not of Johannes himself. But it's some time ago that I read the story, so I may have misremembered some things. I will have a look at it later.
I now re-read the story and I am still not so sure. Johannes could not really have had any children in Prullaria, because he never arrived there, only some of his crewmates did. The only possibility then is that he already had a son or daughter on the ship, who was among the founders of Prullaria. There is indeed Edo Hazelnoot, who says "we are the great-great-grandchildren of Johannes". But even if he means this litterally, I don't interpret it as everyone who lives in Prullaria, as I think there are also descendents of those other crewmates. Maybe, we can, at most, say that Edo Hazelnoot himself is a descendant of Johannes. For the rest we have no information.
As for the story in which Roger is mentioned (I TL 994-A), I have never read the story and I don't know exactly why it was ever decided to put Roger where he is now (and I don't know exactly what family connection is mentioned).
Here’s the image from sim’s blog where the story is discussed:
Thanks. But what is then the best solution here? To merge Roger McDuck with Ebenezer "Pampero" McDuck, and leave the portrait from S 71098 at the position it is now?
I know that you may not agree with me, but I would advise that all the McPapers/MacPapers/MacPaperons etc... just be plain McDucks.
I know the last name does not coincide with Scrooge's Italian one, thus making it seem they should be from another branch, but they very often are relatives from Scotland and that is only a way the writers has to indicate they come from there, since "de' Paperoni" does not sound very Scottish.
Aye, that's probably the best fit. It's what the official translators to English have done before, at least in the case of Danblane McDuck. Isn't there an issue though with Danblane needing to occupy the same space as Jacob, if we do indeed have him as a direct ancestor (as he was in the original, I believe) on the McDuck side? I'm not super familiar with either character, but I think giving Danblane (and maybe the other McPapers/MacPapers/MacPaperons, too) a different last name gives the advantage of not having to match him up with McDuck history when there are already so many ancestors surnamed "McDuck."
Regarding the discussion of Roger McDuck, I'd like to repost some of LP 's thoughts on the topic to make them easier to find and hopefully help explain why things on the tree are the way they are:
Hi, I just read through these last few posts and came up with some options.
I changed Roger McDuck's last name, because there's already a great-grandfather McDuck, and if this guy is supposed to link with Rockerduck in my tree, this is the way it has to be. I made Roger a brother to the van Dukke-triplets. Morag doesn't super-fit with Rockerduck's grandfather, as she's now only his second cousin rather than niece... but as you discussed earlier, this relationship was contradictory from the start. This is the best I could come up with:
It’s widely accepted that Scrooge’s paternal grandfather is named either Titus (as per The Search for Cyril), or Dingus (as per Don Rosa’s Duck Family Tree). I prefer to think of “Dingus” as a nickname and Titus as the real first name. However, Scrooge’s maternal grandfather is more up for debate. The name Mac Paperson appears on a letter in the original Italian version of The Secret of Success. Then there’s Hassle In The Castle, where Scrooge tells of his grandfather Mac Patus. I got my hands on the Swedish translation of this one, and here Mac Patus is called “Scott” (which is interesting, since Carl Barks named Scrooge’s father “Old Scotty”) and is Scrooge’s paternal grandfather (but I’ll still keep Mac Patus as part of the composite maternal grandfather-character).
I also remembered that The Battle of Wills has been mentioned in this thread (page 8 for anyone interested in reading that part again). A Morag McDuck (known as Näbbulosa McQuack in the Swedish version) is said to be related to both Scrooge and John D. Rockerduck. However, the most relevant here is a Roger McDuck, who is Scrooge’s great-grandfather in the English translation of this story. This is odd, since if one were to trace the other relationships mentioned in this story, Scrooge and Rockerduck would end up in different generations, despite being more or less the same age. However, in the Swedish translation of the story, Roger is instead Scrooge’s grandfather (specifically his maternal one) and known as Roger McQuack. This makes much more sense than the English great-grandfather relation, so I’ll go with this. I made this family tree of the relevant relatives according to the Swedish version:
Two things about this:
1) According to this story, Scrooge and John R. Rockerduck would be third cousins. There is another story which says they are fourth cousins. However, since the third cousin-relation is clearly mapped out in The Battle of Wills, I’m going to go with this one.
2) In order to fit with the rest of the tree, Roger McQuack’s surname will have to be changed to O’Drake. But I still think “Roger O’Drake” is a more fitting English name for a Scottish/Irish character than Mac Paperson or Mac Patus.
***
So, finally, this is the result of my findings:
No matter what I say or do, know that Jesus loves you.
Here’s the image from sim’s blog where the story is discussed:
Thanks. But what is then the best solution here? To merge Roger McDuck with Ebenezer "Pampero" McDuck, and leave the portrait from S 71098 at the position it is now?
As mentioned, the portrait that is currently for Roger O’Drake (S 71098), is simply identified as an ‘ancestor’, so tor completion’s sake he could also be somewhere else on the tree (like Anatrone’s father or something). I believe LP put the guy from S 71098 as Scrooge’s Grandpa as a bit of a placeholder, but since there is now Grandpa Zeebaars from that new Dutch story, you don’t really need a placeholder for the maternal side anymore (unless you’ve merged Zeebaars with Scrooge’s paternal grandfather).
Thanks. But what is then the best solution here? To merge Roger McDuck with Ebenezer "Pampero" McDuck, and leave the portrait from S 71098 at the position it is now?
As mentioned, the portrait that is currently for Roger O’Drake (S 71098), is simply identified as an ‘ancestor’, so tor completion’s sake he could also be somewhere else on the tree (like Anatrone’s father or something). I believe LP put the guy from S 71098 as Scrooge’s Grandpa as a bit of a placeholder, but since there is now Grandpa Zeebaars from that new Dutch story, you don’t really need a placeholder for the maternal side anymore (unless you’ve merged Zeebaars with Scrooge’s paternal grandfather).
I agree that Zeebaars should be Scrooge's maternal grandfather if the story doesn't explicitly states he was a McDuck (or Duck, since that's Scrooge's last name in Dutch)... at least we don't have to try and translate Don Pepe Pampero Pamperon or other old and irreconcilable characters...
Anyway, "Zeebaars" (or Seabass), being the name of a fish, sort of sounds like a nickname, like Scrooge's uncle Catfish. Meaning that we could maybe merge him with some other grandfather. I would exclude Roger, anyway, since he is a McDuck in the Italian AND English translation.
[...] - Daisy’s ancestor, the Duchess of Duckshire appears in a newspaper comic ( inducks.org/story.php?c=ZD+73-02-11 ). Daisy already has an uncle Bertrand who has blue blood too, so I’d say the Duchess is on his side od he family. I’m assuming she’s a parody of the Duchess of Devonshire, who lived from 1757-1806, so that would still be within the tree’s timeline. [...]
In W US 47-01 appears another lady called "Duchess of Duckshire", who is probably also a descendant of the duchess in the newspaper comic, and therefore a (distant) relative of Daisy.
Scans of the Duchess:
Another story that maybe links Daisy to nobility: S 85020
Thanks. But what is then the best solution here? To merge Roger McDuck with Ebenezer "Pampero" McDuck, and leave the portrait from S 71098 at the position it is now?
As mentioned, the portrait that is currently for Roger O’Drake (S 71098), is simply identified as an ‘ancestor’, so tor completion’s sake he could also be somewhere else on the tree (like Anatrone’s father or something). I believe LP put the guy from S 71098 as Scrooge’s Grandpa as a bit of a placeholder, but since there is now Grandpa Zeebaars from that new Dutch story, you don’t really need a placeholder for the maternal side anymore (unless you’ve merged Zeebaars with Scrooge’s paternal grandfather).
I have only read the Swedish version, but there MacPatus/Scott von Anka is said to be Scrooge's grandfather. The portrait featured in the story is not explicitly stated to be MacPatus, but that is the only option that makes sense. So no, I did not put the portrait-guy as a placeholder. That being said, I do agree that the image of Scrooge's maternal grandfather should be replaced with Sea-bass.
As for Roger, he is stated to be Scrooge's grandfather in the Swedish version (as seen in the post quoted by MidgetMoose). But evidently, he is great-grandfather in the English version. What does the original (Italian?) version say? Roger is named McDuck in the English version, but McQuack in the Swedish version (Scrooge's Swedish surname is "von Anka"). So should Roger be maternally or paternally related to Scrooge? Once again, what's his surname in the original version?
Apologies to chop in, but it's relevant to the current discussion, so may as well throw it in:
As far as indexing goes, it seems to be agreed that it's worth adding the names of ancestors in different languages when applicable. However, as has been noted, some of these ancestors actually have different relations in translated texts; should this relation also be mentioned?
Again, my access to certain comics will be fairly limited, but I can add the information if it's known?
Resident autistic, diabetic duck fan.
I love hearing about bizarre/obscure Disney works - recommendations welcome!
As mentioned, the portrait that is currently for Roger O’Drake (S 71098), is simply identified as an ‘ancestor’, so tor completion’s sake he could also be somewhere else on the tree (like Anatrone’s father or something). I believe LP put the guy from S 71098 as Scrooge’s Grandpa as a bit of a placeholder, but since there is now Grandpa Zeebaars from that new Dutch story, you don’t really need a placeholder for the maternal side anymore (unless you’ve merged Zeebaars with Scrooge’s paternal grandfather).
I have only read the Swedish version, but there MacPatus/Scott von Anka is said to be Scrooge's grandfather. The portrait featured in the story is not explicitly stated to be MacPatus, but that is the only option that makes sense. So no, I did not put the portrait-guy as a placeholder. That being said, I do agree that the image of Scrooge's maternal grandfather should be replaced with Sea-bass.
As for Roger, he is stated to be Scrooge's grandfather in the Swedish version (as seen in the post quoted by MidgetMoose). But evidently, he is great-grandfather in the English version. What does the original (Italian?) version say? Roger is named McDuck in the English version, but McQuack in the Swedish version (Scrooge's Swedish surname is "von Anka"). So should Roger be maternally or paternally related to Scrooge? Once again, what's his surname in the original version?
He is called Roger McDuck in the Italian version, but it isn't mentioned what kind of relationship he had with Scrooge. We only know that Guendalina/Morag was daughter of one of Roger McDuck's cousins and that she also was Rockerduck's grandfather's niece.
This is a little scheme I did for my blog in order to represent the relation between the three of them (I also had a different relation to Eider than the one you have, having her specular to both of them).
Talking of other, Pap Mac Paper has an English name (Danblane McDuck, which you used), but his relation to Scrooge is different in the US version. Are you going with the original one even keeping his English name?
He is called Roger McDuck in the Italian version, but it isn't mentioned what kind of relationship he had with Scrooge. We only know that Guendalina/Morag was daughter of one of Roger McDuck's cousins and that she also was Rockerduck's grandfather's niece.
This is a little scheme I did for my blog in order to represent the relation between the three of them (I also had a different relation to Eider than the one you have, having her specular to both of them).
So, following the original, Roger McDuck can for example also be a brother of Scrooge's grandfather, or a brother of Scrooge's great-grandfather?
In that scheme, you don't have the other shared relatives of Scrooge and Rockerduck, which we currently have as children or nephews of Morag (Eider, Pulcheria, Gawdensia, Ocagliostro and Duckpaper). Since you position Morag a generation younger than we currently have in the tree, do you consider them all siblings of Morag?
He is called Roger McDuck in the Italian version, but it isn't mentioned what kind of relationship he had with Scrooge. We only know that Guendalina/Morag was daughter of one of Roger McDuck's cousins and that she also was Rockerduck's grandfather's niece.
This is a little scheme I did for my blog in order to represent the relation between the three of them (I also had a different relation to Eider than the one you have, having her specular to both of them).
So, following the original, Roger McDuck can for example also be a brother of Scrooge's grandfather, or a brother of Scrooge's great-grandfather?
Not sure. Scrooge states that he was an "avo" of him, and that should be a direct ancestor, not an uncle.
Also the balloon looks too big for "tuo avo", but I don't want to speculate.
In that scheme, you don't have the other shared relatives of Scrooge and Rockerduck, which we currently have as children or nephews of Morag (Eider, Pulcheria, Gawdensia, Ocagliostro and Duckpaper). Since you position Morag a generation younger than we currently have in the tree, do you consider them all siblings of Morag?
Yes, I didn't bother trying to fit all of those relatives that I, however, mentioned in my post.
Actually, Eider is there as "Eider Mallard", having an equal distance from RKD and US. Yes, technically she wouldn't be their "aunt", but their cousin (as Scrooge calls her in La stella di Burbank), but she still is one generation older. About Genoveffa, who is Eider's daughter in LP's tree if I am not wrong, I recently read a piece by — I think — Boschi or Becattini (cannot recall now, but I will look for it) in which it was stated she was supposed to be the same character as aunt Eider, just drawn differently by Rebuffi who maybe didn't know her design.
Ocagliostro is said to be fourth cousin of Scrooge and Rockerduck, and being him XI, I just supposed his fathers were numbered before him. This is my complete tree btw. Marmaduke Mallard is not a "real" character, as it was a name that Scrooge made up (?) in a Barks story, but I like to think he just used the name of one of his uncles... his picture is fan made by an user of the old DCF called Quackberg.