Just going over the details for the index - does the original Dutch story in H 87180 specify that Elias Hazelnut is a descendant of Johannes?
I've only read the English version, where he explains that the Cooties are descendants of Johannes and his crew, and doesn't directly claim to be a descendant of Johannes himself
Resident autistic, diabetic duck fan.
I love hearing about bizarre/obscure Disney works - recommendations welcome!
Just going over the details for the index - does the original Dutch story in H 87180 specify that Elias Hazelnut is a descendant of Johannes?
I've only read the English version, where he explains that the Cooties are descendants of Johannes and his crew, and doesn't directly claim to be a descendant of Johannes himself
It's a little bit up for debate. In one panel Elias Hazelnut (Edo Hazelnoot in Dutch), says "en wij zijn de achterachterkleinkinderen van Johannes Prul.", meaning "and we are the great-great-grandchildren of Johannes Coot". So, if you take that literally, then yes he is a descendant of him. However, as discussed in a previous post, it can be argued that he does not mean this literally, but more in honor of Johannes Coot. As it seems unlikely that all people living there are descendants of Johannes and not of the other crewmates. Note that Johannes never arived in that town that his crewmates founded. So, he can only have descendants there if he had already children on the ship. Anyway, for now I took it literally as that Elias is indeed a descendant, but all other people living in that town are not confirmed to be a descendant specificly of Johannes. So I put on Elias and not anyone else from the story. But it can be changed of course, if one thinks here that the story should be interpreted differently.
mkr, your tree continues to grow into even more of a masterpiece! If there were awards for meticulous catalogs of cartoon ducks, you'd win one handily!
Excellent job! Some of those Mau Heymans portraits are hilarious, nice addition to the tree. A few last things I noticed:
-Not yet on the tree are Angus McMaillard’s European relatives who are seen on portraits in the same story as Angus himself (someone already posted a picture of them here, Iirc)
- the bearded McDuck on the right of Picjean McDuck is on the tree twice,
-Daisy’s uncle Bertrand is named “Sir Bertrand Wister III’, so there must be a Bertrand I and Bertrand II (presumably his father and grandfather). His title is 5th Earl of Enthouse. Maybe Cedric Canvasback (who is also some kind of nobility, I believe), and the Queen of Quackland are more likely related through the Wister/Duckshire branch, as well. Also, Cedric Canvasback is said to be descended from ‘Sir Murgatroyd Mallard’ who traveled on the Mayflower, so if the tree goes back further he should be on there, too.
-Thusnelda is still on the tree (as Willie Waddle’s wife), so she is a duplicate now.
-I believe the cousin Genoveffa you removed from the tree is not the same as aunt Eider. According to this forum post, she is HDL’s aunt and Scrooge’s cousin, and no relation to Rockerduck. www.papersera.net/forum/index.php?topic=13758.120 What seems more likely, is that they are different characters who happened to be named Genoveffa, and Inducks calls them the same character erroneously.
-According the Inducks description, Donald’s distant cousin Dorinda does make a physical appearance in the story (not just mentioned), so maybe there should be a ‘scan needed’ marker or something. (Speaking of Dorinda, I guess she doesn’t really fit as as Kildare’s sister, since then Donald would have heard of her, probably. She fits better as Neeltje Geertruida’s granddaughter, or something).
- Donald McDuck, who is currently on the tree as a cousin of Scrooge's father, is actually identified as a 'direct uncle' to Scrooge, so he is more likely a brother of Fergus, instead.
If I remember correctly, he was ever put where he is now to make him a nephew of Scrooge's grandfather. In this way he is "kind of" merged with the Donald from I TL 755-A in which he is the nephew of Scrooge's grandfather Paperhone. Even though it might not really make much sense canonically.
I just realized that Scrooge’s grandfather’s nephew from those Martina stories, is already included on the tree, as the son of Guldbrand McDuck, and that Scrooge’s grandfather from those stories has been merged with Ebenezer/Roger McDuck (which makes sense). So, it is not necessary for Scrooge’s uncle Donald to be a cousin of Scrooge’s father, and he is more likely a brother of Fergus or Downey.[/quote]
Last Edit: Jan 29, 2023 7:35:44 GMT by Scroogerello
-Not yet on the tree are Angus McMaillard’s European relatives who are seen on portraits in the same story as Angus himself (someone already posted a picture of them here, Iirc)
Do you have a suggestion for when they have lived?
-Daisy’s uncle Bertrand is named “Sir Bertrand Wister III’, so there must be a Bertrand I and Bertrand II (presumably his father and grandfather). His title is 5th Earl of Enthouse. Maybe Cedric Canvasback (who is also some kind of nobility, I believe), and the Queen of Quackland are more likely related through the Wister/Duckshire branch, as well. Also, Cedric Canvasback is said to be descended from ‘Sir Murgatroyd Mallard’ who traveled on the Mayflower, so if the tree goes back further he should be on there, too.
To put the nobility all at the same branch, would be a good idea I think. But I am not so sure for the numbering of Bertrands ancestors (and Ocagliostro, who also has a number). Often those numbers can be with many generations in between. Like how Queen Elizabeth II lived about 400 years after Queen Elizabeth I.
-I believe the cousin Genoveffa you removed from the tree is not the same as aunt Eider. According to this forum post, she is HDL’s aunt and Scrooge’s cousin, and no relation to Rockerduck. www.papersera.net/forum/index.php?topic=13758.120 What seems more likely, is that they are different characters who happened to be named Genoveffa, and Inducks calls them the same character erroneously.
I am not at all familiar with Eider/Genoveffa. I just based myself on a previous post by sim, who said that they are supposed to be the same. Maybe sim can further clarify?
"The vampire from I TL 1969-B was added as a son of Gretchen Grebe."
He is not actually related to Donald, as it is revealed at the end of the story.
Genoveffa is called "aunt" by HDL and "cousin" by US. But this is her second appearance (both from the Overseas Program), and also in he first one she is addressed "aunt" by the three nephews. They also have the same sight-problem... As I said earlier, I recently read that they indeed are the same character only that Rebuffi drew her differently.
"The vampire from I TL 1969-B was added as a son of Gretchen Grebe."
He is not actually related to Donald, as it is revealed at the end of the story.
Ah, ok, and that is in the original version? Because I read the German translation, and there it is not revealed that they are not related in the end. The German translation just says they are related and leaves it at that.
"The vampire from I TL 1969-B was added as a son of Gretchen Grebe."
He is not actually related to Donald, as it is revealed at the end of the story.
Ah, ok, and that is in the original version? Because I read the German translation, and there it is not revealed that they are not related in the end. The German translation just says they are related and leaves it at that.
Yes. Look here.
Donald says: "Tu non sei mio zio!" ("You are not my uncle!") And the vampire replies: "Sì, sì, lo so! Io spedisco lettere un po' dappertutto..." ("Yes, yes, I know! I send letters a little everywhere..."); "... così, ogni tanto arriva qui uno sciocco che crede di..." ("... therefore, sometimes a fool comes here who believes...")
Also, here you can see an extract from this book in which it is stated that Eider and Genoveffa are the same character (this is not the piece I was referring to earlier, but it is always by Becattini I guess).
In conclusion, I'd suggest having Tobias be born in 1700 to line up with the 1950s-setting that has been assumed for the rest of the tree. I suggest having the American Revolution War-soldier be Crockett's father, having the duck meeting Native Americans be Crockett's grandfather, and finally having Tobias be Crockett's great-grandfather (and also McTavish's brother). What do you all think about that?
That seems reasonable to me. I had just updated the tree, so that would have to be something for the next version then Though it all depends of course if the original version is indeed the same as the Swedish one...
The Dutch website disnistorie.jouwweb.nl/de-familie-duck put Ringtail as the son of Pintail Duck, but I guess it could theoretically be the other way around too.
---
I realized that Tobias is never called a father of one of Donald's ancestors in the story. In other words, he could just as well have been a great-great-(more greats)-uncle to Donald. Donald mostly refers to Tobias as his ancestor/forefather. In addition, he calls Tobias his "old uncle/grand uncle" rather than "old grandpa" or something along those lines... I mean, there's nothing specific telling Donald that Tobias is his grand uncle either, but I'm starting to doubt if Tobias should be Crockett's great-grandfather. Maybe he should just be Crockett's great-granduncle instead? Maybe the Danish version is more specific?
-Not yet on the tree are Angus McMaillard’s European relatives who are seen on portraits in the same story as Angus himself (someone already posted a picture of them here, Iirc)
Do you have a suggestion for when they have lived?
18th century, judging by the wigs they’re wearing. Those went out of fashion quite abruptly after the French revolution, I believe.
- Also, I don’t know if I had mentioned it yet, but Daisy’s grandmother appears in this Dutch story and isn’t yet on the tree: inducks.org/story.php?c=H+25075 . Very obscure story, though.
- Same goes for Rockerduck’s great-uncle (the one with the twirly moustache), he has an image on that tree sim posted a while back, but he isn’t yet on the ‘ultimate tree’.
- Scrooge’s great uncle Jock McDuck has McDuck as his last name he appears in, BTW.
- Midas McDuck’s wife can be removed from the tree, unless she is mentioned somewhere of something.
- Also, as a general means of simplifying the tree a little, Gladstone’s relatives Paperella, Fortunus and Felicio’s lineage could probably be simplified a little, making them more directly related to Gladstone (Fortunus could be General Gastone’s grandfather, Paperella could be a direct ancestor too, etc.). Also, some of the (great) uncles and cousins of Scrooge could probably be moved to the different ‘less inhabited’ branches of the family (O’Drake side, Mallard side, MacGoose side, etc.), if their last name is not McDuck—to make the McDuck branch a little more streamlined and easier to read. For example, if cousin Angus is not called McDuck, he could also be Angus Fuddleduck, son of Agatha, or Angus O’Drake, nephew of Downey or something. Uncle Hester & cousin Paul, uncle Sourdough could possibly be O’Drakes. And some of the sterotypically Scottish-looking McDuck relatives like Angus, Meg, Hugh and Ian could also be children of uncle Jake, to balance things out a little more.
Last Edit: Jan 30, 2023 11:02:51 GMT by Scroogerello
18th century, judging by the wigs they’re wearing. Those went out of fashion quite abruptly after the French revolution, I believe.
- Also, I don’t know if I had mentioned it yet, but Daisy’s grandmother appears in this Dutch story and isn’t yet on the tree: inducks.org/story.php?c=H+25075 . Very obscure story, though.
- Same goes for Rockerduck’s great-uncle (the one with the twirly moustache), he has an image on that tree sim posted a while back, but he isn’t yet on the ‘ultimate tree’.
- Scrooge’s great uncle Jock McDuck has McDuck as his last name he appears in, BTW.
- Midas McDuck’s wife can be removed from the tree, unless she is mentioned somewhere of something.
- Also, as a general means of simplifying the tree a little, Gladstone’s relatives Paperella, Fortunus and Felicio’s lineage could probably be simplified a little, making them more directly related to Gladstone (Fortunus could be General Gastone’s grandfather, Paperella could be a direct ancestor too, etc.). Also, some of the (great) uncles and cousins of Scrooge could probably be moved to the different ‘less inhabited’ branches of the family (O’Drake side, Mallard side, MacGoose side, etc.), if their last name is not McDuck—to make the McDuck branch a little more streamlined and easier to read. For example, if cousin Angus is not called McDuck, he could also be Angus Fuddleduck, son of Agatha, or Angus O’Drake, nephew of Downey or something. Uncle Hester & cousin Paul, uncle Sourdough could possibly be O’Drakes. And some of the sterotypically Scottish-looking McDuck relatives like Angus, Meg, Hugh and Ian could also be children of uncle Jake, to balance things out a little more.
Thanks, I will add the McMallard relatives and the granduncle of Rockerduck, and remove Midas' unknown wife. About Jock I was actually aware that he is a McDuck, but for some reason his name was not written in black.
The grandma from H 25075 was mentioned before and she has been merged with two of Daisy's other grandma's (Lily from the tv episode and the supposed grandma from the Taliaferro strip). I don't know if this is what makes the most sense but there are too many grandma's; alternatively she could also be merged with the supposed grandma from the Barks story, but I don't know if that is a better option.
I will see what I can do to simplify the tree a bit, and balance it more.
Something about Duckshire and nobility I found some more information on Duckshire. The Italian series Paperin di Boscoscuro plays in the County of Duckshire during the middle ages. The same goes for I TL 2880-3. Because the stories play during medieval times they won’t have any information for the tree, it is interesting, however, to note that there is evidence for a noble title connected to a place called Duckshire in so many stories.
I TL 2034-5 is set in 1789, at the start of the French revolution. An ancestor of Daisy’s (called Catherine in the Dutch translation) is living in Paris. A Scrooge-copy and grandma-copy are living with her; in the story they are her uncle and grandma respectively. The Scrooge-character tells Catherine that they are not part of the nobility. At the end of the story, Scrooge inherited the title, castle and land of a count. That suggests that he is indeed of noble descent, although he doesn’t seem to know at the beginning of the story. That probably means they are part of a very distant branch of this family.
It could be that the title in question is ‘Count of Duckshire’, which later gets raised to ‘Duke of Duckshire’. This kind of ‘elevation’ happened more often in history. The County of Guelders for example was elevated to a duchy in 1339, the County of Cleves in 1417. The County of Duckshire would be elevated to the Duchy of Duckshire shortly after 1789 then, as the Duchess of Duckshire in ZD 73-02-11 looks very 18th-century to me. Hypothetically, Catherina herself could be the same person as the Duchess.
In I TL 3466-1P, set in 1930, there appears another lady called ‘Duchess of Duckshire’ (scan below). Looking at a scan I found on the internet, she looks too tall to be the same person as the Duchess in W US 47-01. If we assume that the ‘present’ is in the 50s, in view of the age of the Duchess, it is hard to believe that the Duchess from 1930 is her mother. It could be her sister, who died before the ‘present’, after which the lady from the Barks-story inherited the title.
18th century, judging by the wigs they’re wearing. Those went out of fashion quite abruptly after the French revolution, I believe.
- Also, I don’t know if I had mentioned it yet, but Daisy’s grandmother appears in this Dutch story and isn’t yet on the tree: inducks.org/story.php?c=H+25075 . Very obscure story, though.
- Same goes for Rockerduck’s great-uncle (the one with the twirly moustache), he has an image on that tree sim posted a while back, but he isn’t yet on the ‘ultimate tree’.
- Scrooge’s great uncle Jock McDuck has McDuck as his last name he appears in, BTW.
- Midas McDuck’s wife can be removed from the tree, unless she is mentioned somewhere of something.
- Also, as a general means of simplifying the tree a little, Gladstone’s relatives Paperella, Fortunus and Felicio’s lineage could probably be simplified a little, making them more directly related to Gladstone (Fortunus could be General Gastone’s grandfather, Paperella could be a direct ancestor too, etc.). Also, some of the (great) uncles and cousins of Scrooge could probably be moved to the different ‘less inhabited’ branches of the family (O’Drake side, Mallard side, MacGoose side, etc.), if their last name is not McDuck—to make the McDuck branch a little more streamlined and easier to read. For example, if cousin Angus is not called McDuck, he could also be Angus Fuddleduck, son of Agatha, or Angus O’Drake, nephew of Downey or something. Uncle Hester & cousin Paul, uncle Sourdough could possibly be O’Drakes. And some of the sterotypically Scottish-looking McDuck relatives like Angus, Meg, Hugh and Ian could also be children of uncle Jake, to balance things out a little more.
Thanks, I will add the McMallard relatives and the granduncle of Rockerduck, and remove Midas' unknown wife. About Jock I was actually aware that he is a McDuck, but for some reason his name was not written in black.
The grandma from H 25075 was mentioned before and she has been merged with two of Daisy's other grandma's (Lily from the tv episode and the supposed grandma from the Taliaferro strip). I don't know if this is what makes the most sense but there are too many grandma's; alternatively she could also be merged with the supposed grandma from the Barks story, but I don't know if that is a better option.
I will see what I can do to simplify the tree a bit, and balance it more.
If the update is planned to come soon, I might hold off on releasing the updated index until then
Also, I can't be 100% sure, but I'm pretty sure I know the reason Jock's surname is marked in grey: I couldn't find a source for his name, and the Picsou Wiki lists it as 'Jock Mac Doodle', so I couldn't verify if that was his original name or just the French version
Resident autistic, diabetic duck fan.
I love hearing about bizarre/obscure Disney works - recommendations welcome!
Something about Duckshire and nobility I found some more information on Duckshire. The Italian series Paperin di Boscoscuro plays in the County of Duckshire during the middle ages. The same goes for I TL 2880-3. Because the stories play during medieval times they won’t have any information for the tree, it is interesting, however, to note that there is evidence for a noble title connected to a place called Duckshire in so many stories.
I TL 2034-5 is set in 1789, at the start of the French revolution. An ancestor of Daisy’s (called Catherine in the Dutch translation) is living in Paris. A Scrooge-copy and grandma-copy are living with her; in the story they are her uncle and grandma respectively. The Scrooge-character tells Catherine that they are not part of the nobility. At the end of the story, Scrooge inherited the title, castle and land of a count. That suggests that he is indeed of noble descent, although he doesn’t seem to know at the beginning of the story. That probably means they are part of a very distant branch of this family.
It could be that the title in question is ‘Count of Duckshire’, which later gets raised to ‘Duke of Duckshire’. This kind of ‘elevation’ happened more often in history. The County of Guelders for example was elevated to a duchy in 1339, the County of Cleves in 1417. The County of Duckshire would be elevated to the Duchy of Duckshire shortly after 1789 then, as the Duchess of Duckshire in ZD 73-02-11 looks very 18th-century to me. Hypothetically, Catherina herself could be the same person as the Duchess.
In I TL 3466-1P, set in 1930, there appears another lady called ‘Duchess of Duckshire’ (scan below). Looking at a scan I found on the internet, she looks too tall to be the same person as the Duchess in W US 47-01. If we assume that the ‘present’ is in the 50s, in view of the age of the Duchess, it is hard to believe that the Duchess from 1930 is her mother. It could be her sister, who died before the ‘present’, after which the lady from the Barks-story inherited the title.
That is some interesting information you found on the Duckshires. However, I am not fully sure if your theory involving I TL 2034-5 holds well. We have those ducks already on the tree ("Catherine" is called Paperine Oquette), actually in the same generation as the Duchess of Duckshire, so timewise there would be no problem to merge the two. However, I have written in my notes (probably because someone posted it before on this forum) that in the end of the story their titles and possessions are again seized because of the French Revolution. So, how would that work then? Are you implying that (within a few years time) they gain the title, their title is seized, they regain the title somehow, and then the county is also elevated to a duchy? I am not a historian, so I don't know if that makes any sense realistically.
This is just a minor question I wanted to ask regarding pictures:
For Landy and Molly's kids, we have three pictured and two in the background. However, maybe it's just how I'm interpreting it, but I think that the same one is there as child 2 and child 3 on the tree?
I know that child 3 can't be seen wearing a bow, but her hair matches that of child 2. Meanwhile, the pictured child on the tree has long blonde hair, which is different to that of current child 3, despite the presence of a bow. Plus, both child 2 and child 3 have red hair, leaving the blonde-haired child unaccounted for. Also, the child that's both 2 and 3 on the tree is wearing a red dress, while the blonde child is wearing a pink one.
It's possible that we just can't see the bow from the back? Just wanted to weigh in because I'm fairly certain they're the same and that leaves one unaccounted for