Blackheart Beagle and Grandpa Beagle

[LP]

I've been thinking about the Beagle Boys lately. I'm a fan of the majority of Don Rosa's work, but one aspect of it that I don't care for is his decision to merge Blackheart Beagle with Grandpa Beagle. This merge was first mentioned in Rosa's Cash Flow, and then it's shown in full in his Life and Times of Scrooge McDuck series. While I understand the narrative reasons for making Blackheart a recurring villain for Scrooge in the Life and Times series, I can't for the life of me understand why it was introduced in Cash Flow. It's just an unimportant namedrop; a fan-service comment. I'd argue this merge doesn't make any sense.

When Blackheart first appeared in The Fantastic River Race (in a flashback taking place around 1880), he already had three adult brawling sons. This would place his year of birth around 1840, at the latest. This would mean that if he and Grandpa Beagle from The Money Well were one and the same character, Grandpa Blackheart would be around 110 years old in "the present". I don't like that. I'm thinking he'd be dead by that point. There's also the fact that Grandpa Beagle and Scrooge don't recognize each other in The Money Well, which would be odd if they really are the nemesises (nemesi?) that Rosa portrays them as. 

I think everything would make the most sense if Grandpa instead were the son of one brawling brothers, and thus the grandson of Blackheart. If Grandpa was born shortly after The Fantastic River Race in 1880, he would be around 70 in "the present", which seems much more appropriate. I put together this simple Beagle "family tree", which is only based on Barks' stories, to show how I would prefer their genealogy to look:



From top to bottom:
The current generation of Beagle Boys, first seen in Terror of the Beagle Boys
The wanted poster of "Papa", seen in the background of Only a Poor Old Man (and annoyingly covered by two word balloons!)
Grandpa Beagle from The Money Well
Blackheart's three brawling sons from The Fantastic River Race
and finally, Blackheart Beagle, also from The Fantastic River Race

All this so that I can complain about a decision Rosa made before I was even born...
Anyways, what do you guys think?

[sim]

Sept 12, 2021 10:17:42 GMT LP said:

I've been thinking about the Beagle Boys lately. I'm a fan of the majority of Don Rosa's work, but one aspect of it that I don't care for is his decision to merge Blackheart Beagle with Grandpa Beagle. This merge was first mentioned in Rosa's Cash Flow, and then it's shown in full in his Life and Times of Scrooge McDuck series. While I understand the narrative reasons for making Blackheart a recurring villain for Scrooge in the Life and Times series, I can't for the life of me understand why it was introduced in Cash Flow. It's just an unimportant namedrop; a fan-service comment. I'd argue this merge doesn't make any sense.

When Blackheart first appeared in The Fantastic River Race (in a flashback taking place around 1880), he already had three adult brawling sons. This would place his year of birth around 1840, at the latest. This would mean that if he and Grandpa Beagle from The Money Well were one and the same character, Grandpa Blackheart would be around 110 years old in "the present". I don't like that. I'm thinking he'd be dead by that point. There's also the fact that Grandpa Beagle and Scrooge don't recognize each other in The Money Well, which would be odd if they really are the nemesises (nemesi?) that Rosa portrays them as. 

I think everything would make the most sense if Grandpa instead were the son of one brawling brothers, and thus the grandson of Blackheart. If Grandpa was born shortly after The Fantastic River Race in 1880, he would be around 70 in "the present", which seems much more appropriate. I put together this simple Beagle "family tree", which is only based on Barks' stories, to show how I would prefer their genealogy to look:



From top to bottom:
The current generation of Beagle Boys, first seen in Terror of the Beagle Boys
The wanted poster of "Papa", seen in the background of Only a Poor Old Man (and annoyingly covered by two word balloons!)
Grandpa Beagle from The Money Well
Blackheart's three brawling sons from The Fantastic River Race
and finally, Blackheart Beagle, also from The Fantastic River Race

All this so that I can complain about a decision Rosa made before I was even born...
Anyways, what do you guys think?

Well I guess it could make sense, though we just have to get used to it.

Anyway, here's another Grandpa (not from Barks) that appeared in a few '60/70s American stories.

[LP]

Well, there's nothing wrong with the Beagles having more than one grandfather. The one from your scan could simply be their maternal grandfather.

[sim]

Sept 12, 2021 10:56:14 GMT LP said:

Well, there's nothing wrong with the Beagles having more than one grandfather. The one from your scan could simply be their maternal grandfather.

I guess so. Do you consider Barks' grandpa Beagle as the Italian one aka "GRAZIA"?

[LP]

Sept 12, 2021 11:04:04 GMT sim said:

Sept 12, 2021 10:56:14 GMT LP said:

Well, there's nothing wrong with the Beagles having more than one grandfather. The one from your scan could simply be their maternal grandfather.

I guess so. Do you consider Barks' grandpa Beagle as the Italian one aka "GRAZIA"?

Well, my gut reaction would be to say yes... From what I remember, his characterization is pretty much the same as Rosa's Grandpa Blackheart - the mastermind/leader of the Beagle Boys. The only real difference is his figure and his prison number-plate... and I think Grazia smokes a pipe...
That being said, I haven't read too many Italian stories lately, so I'm not a reliable source here.

(Then again, I mostly consider Taliaferro, Barks, and Rosa's stories canon, so Grazia doesn't really matter in that context. Still, it would be nice if consistency with other creators' stories would be possible.)

[Fethryfan]

Sept 12, 2021 11:24:15 GMT LP said:

Sept 12, 2021 11:04:04 GMT sim said:

I guess so. Do you consider Barks' grandpa Beagle as the Italian one aka "GRAZIA"?

Well, my gut reaction would be to say yes... From what I remember, his characterization is pretty much the same as Rosa's Grandpa Blackheart - the mastermind/leader of the Beagle Boys. The only real difference is his figure and his prison number-plate... and I think Grazia smokes a pipe...
That being said, I haven't read too many Italian stories lately, so I'm not a reliable source here.

(Then again, I mostly consider Taliaferro, Barks, and Rosa's stories canon, so Grazia doesn't really matter in that context. Still, it would be nice if consistency with other creators' stories would be possible.)

A couple of stories show italian Grandpa Beagle as living in the old west when he was young...but this idea seems to have been abandoned in favor of Rosa's "Grandpa Blackheart" idea

[LP]

Sept 12, 2021 11:48:06 GMT Fethryfan said:

A couple of stories show italian Grandpa Beagle as living in the old west when he was young...but this idea seems to have been abandoned in favor of Rosa's "Grandpa Blackheart" idea

Well, all we really know of Rosa's Grandpa Blackheart's youth is that he was a river pirate in 1880-1882. There's nothing stopping him from living in the old west before that, right? (Or after, depending on when "the old west" refers to.)

[Fethryfan]

Sept 12, 2021 10:17:42 GMT LP said:

I've been thinking about the Beagle Boys lately. I'm a fan of the majority of Don Rosa's work, but one aspect of it that I don't care for is his decision to merge Blackheart Beagle with Grandpa Beagle. This merge was first mentioned in Rosa's Cash Flow, and then it's shown in full in his Life and Times of Scrooge McDuck series. While I understand the narrative reasons for making Blackheart a recurring villain for Scrooge in the Life and Times series, I can't for the life of me understand why it was introduced in Cash Flow. It's just an unimportant namedrop; a fan-service comment. I'd argue this merge doesn't make any sense.

When Blackheart first appeared in The Fantastic River Race (in a flashback taking place around 1880), he already had three adult brawling sons. This would place his year of birth around 1840, at the latest. This would mean that if he and Grandpa Beagle from The Money Well were one and the same character, Grandpa Blackheart would be around 110 years old in "the present". I don't like that. I'm thinking he'd be dead by that point. There's also the fact that Grandpa Beagle and Scrooge don't recognize each other in The Money Well, which would be odd if they really are the nemesises (nemesi?) that Rosa portrays them as. 

I think everything would make the most sense if Grandpa instead were the son of one brawling brothers, and thus the grandson of Blackheart. If Grandpa was born shortly after The Fantastic River Race in 1880, he would be around 70 in "the present", which seems much more appropriate. I put together this simple Beagle "family tree", which is only based on Barks' stories, to show how I would prefer their genealogy to look:



From top to bottom:
The current generation of Beagle Boys, first seen in Terror of the Beagle Boys
The wanted poster of "Papa", seen in the background of Only a Poor Old Man (and annoyingly covered by two word balloons!)
Grandpa Beagle from The Money Well
Blackheart's three brawling sons from The Fantastic River Race
and finally, Blackheart Beagle, also from The Fantastic River Race

All this so that I can complain about a decision Rosa made before I was even born...
Anyways, what do you guys think?

Instead of Blackheart's grandson, i would have made Grandpa Beagle one of his sons. This would put him around Grandma Duck's age. Much more believable

And yes, i agree with you that merging Blackheart and Grandpa into one character was a bad idea and Rosa clearly didn't thought much about it, which is a shame since he is one of the few Duck authors (if not the only one) who tried to create a consistent canon and timeline

Not only Blackheart would be about 80 years old when his grandsons were born, his sons would be AT LEAST around 60 years old. While it's not impossible for a man to have children at this age, it certainly isn't very common

Oh well, i guess the Beagles just live longer than most families...as far as i remember, the present Beagle Boys' great-grandfather is still around

[LP]

Sept 12, 2021 11:55:14 GMT Fethryfan said:

Instead of Blackheart's grandson, i would have made Grandpa Beagle one of his sons. This would put him around Grandma Duck's age. Much more believable

And yes, i agree with you that merging Blackheart and Grandpa into one character was a bad idea and Rosa clearly didn't thought much about it, which is a shame since he is one of the few Duck authors (if not the only one) who tried to create a consistent canon and timeline

Not only Blackheart would be about 80 years old when his grandsons were born, his sons would be AT LEAST around 60 years old. While it's not impossible for a man to have children at this age, it certainly isn't very common

Oh well, i guess the Beagles just live longer than most families...as far as i remember, the present Beagle Boys' great-grandfather is still around

I did consider Grandpa being one of the brawling brothers at first. That would place his birth at around 1860 instead, making him 90 in "the present", which is fine. I agree that having him around Scrooge's age would be fitting. Having him be one of the brawling brothers would have allowed Rosa to use him as a recurring villain to Scrooge during Life and Times, and could have been a nice alternative to using Blackheart. Grandpa's facial hair is different from the brawling brothers', but of course that isn't a big deal!
Still, Grandpa doesn't recognize Scrooge in The Money Well, which is probably the only real problem with that suggestion. 

I agree that Rosa is one of few creators who cares about canon and such. This is one of the major reasons I consider his works canon (or at least, part of my head-canon). 

I don't know which great-grandfather you're referring to, but I believe you. I assume there have been a few different ones. I've definitely seen one incarnation that was a ghost, probably on one of the wikis.

[Fethryfan]

Sept 12, 2021 12:21:18 GMT LP said:

Sept 12, 2021 11:55:14 GMT Fethryfan said:

Instead of Blackheart's grandson, i would have made Grandpa Beagle one of his sons. This would put him around Grandma Duck's age. Much more believable

And yes, i agree with you that merging Blackheart and Grandpa into one character was a bad idea and Rosa clearly didn't thought much about it, which is a shame since he is one of the few Duck authors (if not the only one) who tried to create a consistent canon and timeline

Not only Blackheart would be about 80 years old when his grandsons were born, his sons would be AT LEAST around 60 years old. While it's not impossible for a man to have children at this age, it certainly isn't very common

Oh well, i guess the Beagles just live longer than most families...as far as i remember, the present Beagle Boys' great-grandfather is still around

I did consider Grandpa being one of the brawling brothers at first. That would place his birth at around 1860 instead, making him 90 in "the present", which is fine. I agree that having him around Scrooge's age would be fitting. Having him be one of the brawling brothers would have allowed Rosa to use him as a recurring villain to Scrooge during Life and Times, and could have been a nice alternative to using Blackheart. Grandpa's facial hair is different from the brawling brothers', but of course that isn't a big deal!
Still, Grandpa doesn't recognize Scrooge in The Money Well, which is probably the only real problem with that suggestion. 

I agree that Rosa is one of few creators who cares about canon and such. This is one of the major reasons I consider his works canon (or at least, part of my head-canon). 

I don't know which great-grandfather you're referring to, but I believe you. I assume there have been a few different ones. I've definitely seen one incarnation that was a ghost, probably on one of the wikis.

I'm talking about this character here

And things might actually get worse, because there is a chance this character is actually the Beagle's great-great-grandfather instead!
scrooge-mcduck.fandom.com/wiki/Great-Grandpappy_Beagle

[LP]

Sept 12, 2021 12:32:57 GMT Fethryfan said:

I'm talking about this character here

And things might actually get worse, because there is a chance this character is actually the Beagle's great-great-grandfather instead!
scrooge-mcduck.fandom.com/wiki/Great-Grandpappy_Beagle

I found and read the story in the internet. They call him both "Great-great-grandpappy" and "Grandpappy". Odd. He'd have to be like... 150 years old or something along those lines! He does look pretty old, though!

Anyways, the one I thought of was this guy, who would be Great-great-grandpappy's dead son (and Grandpa Blackheart's father):
scrooge-mcduck.fandom.com/wiki/Scary_Beagle

[Fethryfan]

Sept 12, 2021 12:46:11 GMT LP said:

Sept 12, 2021 12:32:57 GMT Fethryfan said:

I'm talking about this character here

And things might actually get worse, because there is a chance this character is actually the Beagle's great-great-grandfather instead!
scrooge-mcduck.fandom.com/wiki/Great-Grandpappy_Beagle

I found and read the story in the internet. They call him both "Great-great-grandpappy" and "Grandpappy". Odd. He'd have to be like... 150 years old or something along those lines! He does look pretty old, though!

Anyways, the one I thought of was this guy, who would be Great-great-grandpappy's dead son (and Grandpa Blackheart's father):
scrooge-mcduck.fandom.com/wiki/Scary_Beagle

Yep, clearly the Beagle family lives A LOT. At this point i'm wondering how many generations are there...counting with the Beagle Brats we have at least 6 generations cohexisting

[LP]

Sept 12, 2021 12:52:48 GMT Fethryfan said:

Sept 12, 2021 12:46:11 GMT LP said:

I found and read the story in the internet. They call him both "Great-great-grandpappy" and "Grandpappy". Odd. He'd have to be like... 150 years old or something along those lines! He does look pretty old, though!

Anyways, the one I thought of was this guy, who would be Great-great-grandpappy's dead son (and Grandpa Blackheart's father):
scrooge-mcduck.fandom.com/wiki/Scary_Beagle

Yep, clearly the Beagle family lives A LOT. At this point i'm wondering how many generations are there...counting with the Beagle Brats we have at least 6 generations cohexisting

Yes, while I don't consider any of the Beagle Brats, Scary Beagle, nor Great-great-grandpappy Beagle canonical, I do find this stuff fun and fascinating!

I believe I did a pretty basic Beagle Boy-family tree 10-15 years ago. It was pretty much just a guessing game since a lot of them are just "cousins" to each other. I just randomly put most of them as sons of the two other brawling brothers.

Anyways, the same story that has Great-great-grandpappy Beagle also featured a Great-Grandma 473-08 (who would be Scary Beagle's wife and Blackheart Beagle's mother.) Then there's a Granny Beagle who would be Blackheart's wife. And of course Ma Beagle from DuckTales. But that's all I know.

[schizo]

Odd how the italians latched on to obscure characters like Grandpa Beagle and Rockerduck and gave them so prominent roles after barely appearing under Barks.

[crazycatlord]

There are some Brazilian stories about the "Grande Metralha" (Great Beagle), clearly with an age similar to Scrooge (and a solitary criminal, not a chief of a gang) and is stayed explicitly that the "Grande Metralha" is Grandpa Beagle as young (examples: O Grande Metralha, O Vale-Tudo em Vale Seco); another story with Scrooge and Grandpa Beagle as children - Um Gosto e Três Cruzeiros. This seems to make more sense than putting Grande Beagle at least a generation older than Scrooge.

About GRAZIA - the portuguese translations of italian stories in the 1980s called him "Metralha Veterano" and make him a character distinct of "Vovô Metralha" (Granda Beagle); but today both are translated to "Vovô Metralha", I think.