Is that the tree from Monique Peterson's The Little Big Book of Disney? It looks like it may be, from Scrooge MacDuck's description. Anyway, that tree won't wash, because again, we know from "Flipism" that AMJ are the daughters of Daisy's sister, not her brother.
And the dotted line here doesn't indicate the relationship between Fred and Daisy--the line connecting them as siblings is solid. The dotted line is the one that connects them to Elvira! It looks like that doesn't mean the creator thinks they might be Elvira's children--just that they might be descended from Elvira.
I didn't said that Daisy and Fred are Elvira's children. I said that they are Elvira's great-nephew and great-niece. Also, Fred can be AMJ's father, and Daisy's brother-in-law.
Sorry for the confusion! I didn't say that you said that they are Elvira's children--I was just clarifying what the draw-er of the tree probably meant. The dotted lines on that tree signify vague ancestry. I realize that you were suggesting that they could be Elvira's great-nephew and great-niece. I personally would prefer that their parents not be related to Donald's family.
Yes, Fred could be Daisy's brother-in-law, but that's not the way the tree is drawn. It is drawn showing the connection between Daisy and Fred in the way it shows connections between siblings.
The preponderance of evidence suggests that (A) AM&J's last name has never been officially revealed, or, at least, has been so infrequently used as to be open to being flexible and (B) AM&J are Daisy's sister's kids. Given 1950s standards, they would take their father's last name, so let's hope that someone finally uses it in a story soon and it is not Duck! Otherwise I fear we will be stuck with it, like Quackmore for Scrooge's butler (that's Donald's father's name, and it makes no sense to give it to another character). I had hoped that names for Scarpa characters like "Dickie Duck" and "Brigitta MacBridge" would be suitably modified in English translations but it's too late now (my objection to the first one is that we don't need another unrelated Duck, and the second is just bland, unimaginative and has nothing to do with waterfowl or wealth). AM&J are not important characters, but it would be nice to give them a last name that fits well with the Duck family tree as we know it.
Yes, I also hope that someone will write a good story that will reveal the names of AMJ's parents and thus AMJ's last name, and that that name is not Duck. Or Coot, for that matter. Presumably this would have to come out of Egmont, right? Is Egmont committed to their last name being "Duck"? Apparently some countries where Egmont stories are published believe that AMJ's last name is Duck or And=Duck. Ach, it's a shame that IDW Disney can't commission new stories for English-language readers unfettered by this lazy assumption.
Like you, I am adhering to the Rosa timeline in this and thus assuming that children use their father's surname.
Drakeborough--on AMJ as Chickadees, the consensus from the comments on Joe's blog is: AMJ were not drawn as Chickadees by Barks, but were occasionally included in the Chickadees in stories by others in HDL/JW and other comics. Sometimes they are named, so you know the writer intended their presence. Sometimes they are not named, so it's possible it was the artist's choice to draw the unnamed Chickadees as AMJ. There is no consistency in these comics, though, as to AMJ's scouting. In two stories in HDL/JW AMJ are in scouting groups with two other names, and in a story in LVD they are in a scouting group with yet a fourth name.
Thanks for the summary, now I remember the result of that discussion even without re-reading it (but I will re-read it anyway sometimes in the following days).
Now, back to their parents and last name! It sounds to me as though they were never given a last name in English-language comics. Their mother is Daisy's sister (first name unknown, Someone Duck), and their father and thus their last name have never been identified. I agree, drakeborough, that it's preferable for their father and AMJ not to have the last name Duck, and not to be related to any of the main characters.
Meanwhile, I have removed the reference to their surname being Duck from the Wikipedia article about the Duck family, since it was unsourced.
The preponderance of evidence suggests that (A) AM&J's last name has never been officially revealed, or, at least, has been so infrequently used as to be open to being flexible and (B) AM&J are Daisy's sister's kids. Given 1950s standards, they would take their father's last name, so let's hope that someone finally uses it in a story soon and it is not Duck! Otherwise I fear we will be stuck with it, like Quackmore for Scrooge's butler (that's Donald's father's name, and it makes no sense to give it to another character). I had hoped that names for Scarpa characters like "Dickie Duck" and "Brigitta MacBridge" would be suitably modified in English translations but it's too late now (my objection to the first one is that we don't need another unrelated Duck, and the second is just bland, unimaginative and has nothing to do with waterfowl or wealth). AM&J are not important characters, but it would be nice to give them a last name that fits well with the Duck family tree as we know it.
I also dislike Battista being called Quackmore, since that is not a real name but a fictional name created to be used for Donald's father. I wonder when did Battista start being called Quackmore in English. According to Inducks, these are all the pre-2011 appearances of Battista in American publications:
The Old West Diary of Goofalo Bill (I TL 1780-AP), Goofy Adventures 7 (December 1990)
The Money Ocean (I AT 215-A), Uncle Scrooge 266 (May 1992) Magica's Hot Plot (H 98287), Uncle Scrooge 332 (July 21, 2004) The Bronze Gate (I TL 2423-3), Donald Duck Adventures (Gemstone) 16 (January 2006) Brother From Another Earth! (I TL 2073-1), Uncle Scrooge 370 (October 2007) The Money Ocean (I AT 215-A), Walt Disney Treasures 2 (February 2008) Counting on Some Sleep (I TL 2415-01), Uncle Scrooge 376 (April 2008) Breakfast of Champions (I TL 2585-7), Uncle Scrooge 381 (September 2008)
Which one of these stories used the name Quackmore for the first time?
Last Edit: Jan 8, 2017 21:47:38 GMT by drakeborough
Drakeborough--on AMJ as Chickadees, the consensus from the comments on Joe's blog is: AMJ were not drawn as Chickadees by Barks, but were occasionally included in the Chickadees in stories by others in HDL/JW and other comics. Sometimes they are named, so you know the writer intended their presence. Sometimes they are not named, so it's possible it was the artist's choice to draw the unnamed Chickadees as AMJ. There is no consistency in these comics, though, as to AMJ's scouting. In two stories in HDL/JW AMJ are in scouting groups with two other names, and in a story in LVD they are in a scouting group with yet a fourth name.
About the subject of AMJ as Chickadees, the following image has been posted three days ago on an Italian Facebook page:
I don't know from which story the panel was taken (an Italian story? Or the Italian translation of a foreign story?), but the dialogue translates to "This explains everything!", and the text on the paper is "You can rent a Chickadee at 1$ per hour".
Drakeborough--on AMJ as Chickadees, the consensus from the comments on Joe's blog is: AMJ were not drawn as Chickadees by Barks, but were occasionally included in the Chickadees in stories by others in HDL/JW and other comics. Sometimes they are named, so you know the writer intended their presence. Sometimes they are not named, so it's possible it was the artist's choice to draw the unnamed Chickadees as AMJ. There is no consistency in these comics, though, as to AMJ's scouting. In two stories in HDL/JW AMJ are in scouting groups with two other names, and in a story in LVD they are in a scouting group with yet a fourth name.
About the subject of AMJ as Chickadees, the following image has been posted three days ago on an Italian Facebook page:
I don't know from which story the panel was taken (an Italian story? Or the Italian translation of a foreign story?), but the dialogue translates to "This explains everything!", and the text on the paper is "You can rent a Chickadee at 1$ per hour".
About the subject of AMJ as Chickadees, the following image has been posted three days ago on an Italian Facebook page:
I don't know from which story the panel was taken (an Italian story? Or the Italian translation of a foreign story?), but the dialogue translates to "This explains everything!", and the text on the paper is "You can rent a Chickadee at 1$ per hour".
Thanks. Looking at that Inducks page, I see that the Topolino issue which published it is part of my collection.
At any rate, "Hold the Phone" is another comic to add to the list of stories with AMJ as Chickadees (assuming the reference to the Chickadees is also present in the original version). The link to the list can be found in my first message of this discussion (third post of page 1), and I am copying here the two posts which name some of stories to include or exclude from that list.
Joe Torcivia:
A quick look at a concentrated section of my collection (which is all I have time for, alas) shows that April, May, and June were not shown to be Chickadees in Barks’ original Chickadee story, nor were they so in another Barks-written (but, not drawn) story “Whale of a Good Deed” from HUEY, DEWEY AND LOUIE JUNIOR WOODCHUCKS # 7 (October, 1970), which featured the Chickadees somewhat prominently.
AM&J did not appear as Chickadees in John Carey’s original art for the story, nor did they appear as such in Daan Jippes’ redrawing of it, which was last seen here in Boom!’s final issue of DONALD DUCK (# 367, 2011).
I would suspect, without taking the time to track it down, that the very logical notion of AM&J as Chickadees probably originated with Vic Lockman, Bob Gregory, or someone else writing the Duck comics for Western Publishing. AM&J did appear in the first two issues of HUEY, DEWEY AND LOUIE JUNIOR WOODCHUCKS (1966 and 1967, respectively) but NOT as Chickadees.
I suspect the idea originated somewhere within the run of HUEY, DEWEY AND LOUIE JUNIOR WOODCHUCKS, whether in another Barks-written (but, not drawn) story, or more likely in an original Gold Key story.
Elaine (aka Matilda from this forum):
On the question of AMJ as Chickadees: there was no consistency over time in the depiction of girls' scouting groups in HDL/JW and other comics. In several stories in HDL/JW, Daisy and Donald, and Mickey Mouse, the Duckburg Girl Scouts are called Chickadees. I don't have all the relevant issues, but AMJ are Chickadees in "The Maze Valley Rescue" (art by Kay Wright, HDL/JW 78), "Trailblazers" (art by Bob Gregory, HDL/JW 68), "The Big Sprout" (HDL/JW 63), and "There's No Luck Like Good Luck" (John Carey, MM 124)--only in "Maze Valley Rescue" are they named, however, so in some cases it may have been the artist's choice to draw some or all of the Chickadees as AMJ. In other issues of HDL/JW, AM&J are in Scouting organizations called "Twitter-birds" ("The Great Twitter-bird Rescue" by Bob Gregory, W JW 47-03) and "Nature's Princesses" ("Rescue Squad", W JW 36-03). In Ludwig Von Drake 1, AM&J are in a Scouting group with the decent name of "Red Robins" ("Super Sales Girls", W LVD 1-06). I note that their scouting outfits also had no consistency: usual AMJ outfits in usual colors, or usual AMJ outfits colored khaki, or scouting hats instead of bows, or (though I can't find this one right now to document it) scouting hats PLUS bows! Only in LVD 1 as Red Robins do they have complete scouting outfits.
Thanks. Looking at that Inducks page, I see that the Topolino issue which published it is part of my collection.
Now I actually took the time to read it, and I see that at the end of the story the TV mentions one "Zelda Smurch", and one of Daisy's nieces mentions that she is their "Gran Mogolessa", which would be the female form of "Gran Mogol" ("Grand Mogul"). Which term is used in the original version?
Thanks. Looking at that Inducks page, I see that the Topolino issue which published it is part of my collection.
Now I actually took the time to read it, and I see that at the end of the story the TV mentions one "Zelda Smurch", and one of Daisy's nieces mentions that she is their "Gran Mogolessa", which would be the female form of "Gran Mogol" ("Grand Mogul"). Which term is used in the original version?
AMJ are indeed presented as Chickadees in the original. Here's page 2 which includes the panel that you posted from Topolino 1345 :
And here's page 3. As you can see Zelda Smurch is AMJ's "Chickadees Counselor"
As soon as I find the time, I will go through all the issues that I have and attempt to find where the notion of AMJ as Chickadees originated from.