The only other info I read (on the old Disney Comics Forum) is that, according to a user of that forum, Donald was removed from most episodes because Disney wasn't sure about DuckTales becoming successful and couldn't afford associating a major star and icon with a show that might have become a failure. If true, this debunks the often repeated idea that Donald's role was reduced because of his hard-to-understand duck voice from animation. The user who said that mentioned a discussion in another thread that supposedly had more info about this point, but the forum became defunct before I could check that thread.
I knew of yet another explanation for Donald's disappearance: rather than DuckTales's failure harming Donald's sucess, they feared Donald's success would cause DuckTales's failure. Or, to put it another way: they feared relatively-unknown-to-watchers Scrooge would never get a chance to shine with such a star as Donald to share the screen with.
The only other info I read (on the old Disney Comics Forum) is that, according to a user of that forum, Donald was removed from most episodes because Disney wasn't sure about DuckTales becoming successful and couldn't afford associating a major star and icon with a show that might have become a failure. If true, this debunks the often repeated idea that Donald's role was reduced because of his hard-to-understand duck voice from animation. The user who said that mentioned a discussion in another thread that supposedly had more info about this point, but the forum became defunct before I could check that thread.
I knew of yet another explanation for Donald's disappearance: rather than DuckTales's failure harming Donald's sucess, they feared Donald's success would cause DuckTales's failure. Or, to put it another way: they feared relatively-unknown-to-watchers Scrooge would never get a chance to shine with such a star as Donald to share the screen with.
I've heard a similar consideration from some fans of the show, who defended the choice of dropping Donald from most episodes by saying that he would have stolen the stage from Scrooge, who was supposed to be the main character of the tv series.
I think this kind of reasoning is faulty: when Barks started creating stories with Uncle Scrooge as the main character in 1952, he casted Donald (in addition to HDL) as Scrooge's helper rather than creating a Donald-substitute, and this didn't prevent Scrooge (who was created less than five years before and had only been a supporting character at that point) from becoming a major star himself. Indeed, sales of Uncle Scrooge comics quickly surpassed that of Donald Duck comics. Why are we supposed to believe that it would have been different in animation? Scrooge would have shun in DuckTales even if Donald had been there instead of Launchpad and Fenton.
Still, as faulty as it is, it's possible that Disney's television depeartment did a similar reasoning. Do we have any source (like an interview to one of the writers or producers) that explains why Donald was absent from most episodes, or why did the people in charge of the show make other choices?
Why are we supposed to believe that it would have been different in animation?]
I'd say because Donald was (and is) a much more well-known character in animation than in comics; I don't know if this was Disney's reasoning, but it's very plausible that international animated icon Donald would have taken away the spotlight from the rather obscure Scrooge.
That being said, I do think that, for the same reason, giving Donald an important role in the series would have actually been a good idea to increase viewership; even those who had never heard of Disney comics would know Donald from animation or Disney parks.
The only other info I read (on the old Disney Comics Forum) is that, according to a user of that forum, Donald was removed from most episodes because Disney wasn't sure about DuckTales becoming successful and couldn't afford associating a major star and icon with a show that might have become a failure. If true, this debunks the often repeated idea that Donald's role was reduced because of his hard-to-understand duck voice from animation. The user who said that mentioned a discussion in another thread that supposedly had more info about this point, but the forum became defunct before I could check that thread.
I knew of yet another explanation for Donald's disappearance: rather than DuckTales's failure harming Donald's sucess, they feared Donald's success would cause DuckTales's failure. Or, to put it another way: they feared relatively-unknown-to-watchers Scrooge would never get a chance to shine with such a star as Donald to share the screen with.
The DCF user drakebrough is referring to is probably me, and on a thread on that forum commemorating the 25th anniversary of the original show, Mike Peraza, a Disney art director who apparently was actively involved with conception of the series clearly stated in response to a question I asked that it was the fear of putting a classic star like Donald at risk on a potentially failing show that led to the ultimate decision not to make him main cast, not the fear that he would overshadow Scrooge or his voice. With Goof Troop and later Quack Pack, they evidently overcame that squeamishness.
Part of the thread in question has survived on the Wayback Machine (at least as of now):
The Peraza posts dealing with the issue of Donald's role on DuckTales are unfortunately missing and I suspect that they may have happened after this thread was archived. There's also a missing page and that may be where the discussion occurred. Or it may have been on a different thread altogether. The archiving of the DCF is spotty. But my recollection of his answer is clear, because it's a question I had had for a long time and was happy to have gotten a definite answer.
And here is Mr. Peraza's page dealing with his involvement on DuckTales. As you can see, no reference at all to what sparked the idea for a series based on Barks' work in the first place, which is why this information about Jym Magnon was news to me.
Why are we supposed to believe that it would have been different in animation?]
I'd say because Donald was (and is) a much more well-known character in animation than in comics
This depends on the country: for example, I'd say that here in Italy Donald is most often associated with comics rather than animation. Of course, DuckTales was an American show, an in the 1980's (as well as today) Duck comics were not a big deal anymore in the USA.
I don't know if this was Disney's reasoning, but it's very plausible that international animated icon Donald would have taken away the spotlight from the rather obscure Scrooge.
If the plots were written so that Scrooge would be the main character, then I don't think Donald would have taken the spotlight away from Scrooge, despite the latter being a rather obscure caracter in pre-DuckTales animation.
That being said, I do think that, for the same reason, giving Donald an important role in the series would have actually been a good idea to increase viewership; even those who had never heard of Disney comics would know Donald from animation or Disney parks.
Post by Baar Baar Jinx on May 27, 2017 21:14:21 GMT
Okay, here's something from Mr. Peraza's aforementioned blog that, in addition to his response on the DCF, may clear the air:
"...I was once again contacted by Disney TV. They were going to do a new series based on Carl Barks' famous creation Uncle Scrooge. They were still "negotiating" with the main studio whether Donald could be a part of it but the nephews were on board already. Yes, Disney was and is very protective of its stars. Maybe they had seen Fluppy Dogs?"
Regrettably, although I spent the afternoon combing the remnants of the DCF on the Wayback Machine, I have been unable to locate his post about this topic. But I recall now that he had said that Disney TV needed to get permission from the main studio to use the iconic stars (Mickey, Donald, Goofy, etc.), despite the fact that they were a subsidiary of the main company and that the series in question featured characters closely associated with one of these iconic stars, and the main studio balked at the idea of putting Donald in a position where he could potentially end up with the albatross of an unsuccessful TV show around his neck ... he was deemed "too big to fail". So that's why he was essentially written out of the series. Not his voice or his potential to take the focus off his co-stars.
The DCF user drakebrough is referring to is probably me, and on a thread on that forum commemorating the 25th anniversary of the original show, Mike Peraza, a Disney art director who apparently was actively involved with conception of the series clearly stated in response to a question I asked that it was the fear of putting a classic star like Donald at risk on a potentially failing show that led to the ultimate decision not to make him main cast, not the fear that he would overshadow Scrooge or his voice. With Goof Troop and later Quack Pack, they evidently overcame that squeamishness.
Part of the thread in question has survived on the Wayback Machine (at least as of now):
The Peraza posts dealing with the issue of Donald's role on DuckTales are unfortunately missing and I suspect that they may have happened after this thread was archived. There's also a missing page and that may be where the discussion occurred. Or it may have been on a different thread altogether. The archiving of the DCF is spotty. But my recollection of his answer is clear, because it's a question I had had for a long time and was happy to have gotten a definite answer.
And here is Mr. Peraza's page dealing with his involvement on DuckTales. As you can see, no reference at all to what sparked the idea for a series based on Barks' work in the first place, which is why this information about Jym Magnon was news to me.
I read the thread you linked (except for page 4 which is not available), and it wasn't the one where I read that info about Donald's absence: the thread I remember was more recent, and in it some user pointed out an old discussion about Donald's absence. Maybe the old discussion was the thread you linked, but if true then the part about Donald must be on page 4, or in a message written after the thread was archived. Too bad, because the wording that was used is important to know if there was a single explanation or several hypotheses.
On page 3 of that thread there's a link to a Chris Barat article from 2012 in which he wrote:
I still lack a positive confirmation of my speculation that the DuckTales production crew got most of its early "Barks-adaptation fodder" from Celestial Arts' UNCLE $CROOGE McDUCK: HIS LIFE AND TIMES. However, I can offer up the Internet-delivered tidbit that Jymn Magon, a longtime Barks fan, brought volumes from Another Rainbow's CARL BARKS LIBRARY to some of those early production meetings... and that some of his colleagues weren't impressed. Sorry to say, I can't currently locate a direct link for a relevant quote. Perhaps someone can provide one.
The Internet-delivered tidbit for which he couldn't locate a direct link must be that couple of Don Rosa messages on the Papersera forum from 2009 which I linked a few hours ago. Also, the article above has a link to an earlier Barat article, in which he made an interesting point:
I can't prove it, of course, but I think it's a reasonably safe guess that someone involved in the development of DuckTales had a habit of bringing a copy of Celestial Arts' 1982 volume UNCLE $CROOGE McDUCK: HIS LIFE AND TIMES to those early production meetings. "Earth Quack," DT's stab at adapting Carl Barks' "Land Beneath the Ground," is one of five episodes among the first 8 DT eps produced that were based on Barks stories reprinted in LIFE AND TIMES. Later, "The Horseradish Story" and "Tralla La" would also get adaptations. And the influence wielded by this first major Barks book project may not have ended there. One can make the case that the "treasure ship in the desert" featured in "Wrongway in Ronguay" (part two of "Treasure of the Golden Suns") may be a riff on Captain Ulloa's ship in "The Seven Cities of Cibola." The prominent appearances by Flintheart Glomgold and Magica De Spell probably didn't hurt their chances of becoming featured animated players, either.
Back to the DCF thread from your link: on page 5 you wrote "Production on DuckTales began in the early to mid-eighties, just a few years after Bruce Hamilton secured the license to Barks' work". Do you know something more? I didn't realize the show (which premiered in 1987) was planned with som many years of advance.
True, they overcame that squeamishness and used classic characters as the center of Goof Troop and Quack Pack, though of course this doesn't make them good shows (on the contrary: they are both worse than DuckTales). Quack Pack needed to be to Barks' long Donald comics what DuckTales was to Barks' long Scrooge comic, and Goof Troop is one big mistake, especially with Max, who is a character that shouldn't have been created.
And you are right that Mr. Peraza's page does't really explain how the idea of adapting Barks stories in a tv series originated, or why Donald was removed. The closest to those is this bit:
I kept working on the chipmunk feature doing boards and concepts alongside my good friend and amazing artist Dan Haskett when I was once again contacted by Disney TV. They were going to do a new series based on Carl Barks' famous creation Uncle Scrooge. They were still "negotiating" with the main studio whether Donald could be a part of it but the nephews were on board already. Yes, Disney was and is very protective of its stars. Maybe they had seen Fluppy Dogs? Nevertheless, being a comic book collector and fan, I had also met Carl a few years earlier (Great guy!) and I was ecstatic at the possibilities of putting his genius on the screen.
EDIT: You anticipated me about the last point.
Last Edit: May 27, 2017 22:16:10 GMT by drakeborough
Here is GeoX's review of DuckTales' first episode, and in the comment section a user gave a different explanation (which is already the fourth one as far as this thread is concerned) for why Donald was written out:
This is what I've always heard about why Donald was not in DuckTales. It may or may not be true, but I have heard it from several sources:
The licensing contracts that Disney had been using for many years were vague on the subject of spin-offs. So companies who had licenses to make Donald Duck stuff could have claimed that their license covered DuckTales too if Donald had been featured prominently. Disney wanted to make money by licensing DuckTales separately, and they wanted to avoid litigation to clarify the contract language, so they de-emphasized Donald's role so no one could claim that DuckTales was "The Donald Duck Show" under another name.
As I type it now, it sounds silly, like the type of thing fans would make up. But I believed it at the time...
By the way, in that comment section there was also a direct quote to the Rosa message about Jymn Magon that we already discussed.
Last Edit: May 27, 2017 22:38:56 GMT by drakeborough
Here is GeoX's review of DuckTales' first episode, and in the comment section a user gave a different explanation (which is already the fourth one as far as this thread is concerned) for why Donald was written out:
This is what I've always heard about why Donald was not in DuckTales. It may or may not be true, but I have heard it from several sources:
The licensing contracts that Disney had been using for many years were vague on the subject of spin-offs. So companies who had licenses to make Donald Duck stuff could have claimed that their license covered DuckTales too if Donald had been featured prominently. Disney wanted to make money by licensing DuckTales separately, and they wanted to avoid litigation to clarify the contract language, so they de-emphasized Donald's role so no one could claim that DuckTales was "The Donald Duck Show" under another name.
As I type it now, it sounds silly, like the type of thing fans would make up. But I believed it at the time...
This is entirely plausible, and as is often the case, may have been one of many factors in the decision. But it seems clear now that the decision to exclude Donald was based on licensing issues, not considerations related to the quality or nature of the show itself. Both the "we can't let Donald fail" and "if this show does well, we can make more money if it's a separate license" are mutually compatible, logically flow from each other, and make perfect business sense. Honestly, apart from a handful of devoted Barks/comics fans like us, I doubt the target audience of the show cared that Donald wasn't always around. Those previously unfamiliar with Barks' work (which would have been a majority of kids watching after school) probably didn't even know that Donald was supposed to be around.
May 27, 2017 18:27:05 GMT -4 drakeborough said:
Back to the DCF thread from your link: on page 5 you wrote "Production on DuckTales began in the early to mid-eighties, just a few years after Bruce Hamilton secured the license to Barks' work". Do you know something more? I didn't realize the show (which premiered in 1987) was planned with som many years of advance.
No, I was just going based on what I estimated the usual production/conceptualization time for such a show might be. Both Gladstone reintroducing Barks into the public eye in a big way, and work on DuckTales, also based on Barks' oeuvre, occurred at roughly the same time, so I always wondered if the former led to the latter (the other way around is clearly not true), or if was just a coincidence.
May 27, 2017 18:27:05 GMT -4 drakeborough said:
I read the thread you linked (except for page 4 which is not available), and it wasn't the one where I read that info about Donald's absence: the thread I remember was more recent, and in it some user pointed out an old discussion about Donald's absence. Maybe the old discussion was the thread you linked, but if true then the part about Donald must be on page 4, or in a message written after the thread was archived. Too bad, because the wording that was used is important to know if there was a single explanation or several hypotheses.
I remember there were two concurrent threads on the subject, and I see one called "DuckTales sans Donald's Tail", eight pages long and not a single one still viewable. It might have been in that. Mr. Peraza had 8 posts on the DCF, all pertaining in some way to DuckTales, and only one survives. His profile page on DCF is also not archived, so we can't see the other threads he posted on. So unfortunately it seems a dead end, but as I said, I remember very clearly what he wrote.
Of course, if the television department of Disney had a low opinion of Barks' comics, well, that doesn't speak too well of them.
Wait a sec. From nowhere you can infer that they had a low opinion of Barks's comics! All we know is that they did not find enough inspiring material in those comics good to easily translate into a tv show. Which is something that one can consistently think even if she is the greatest Barks's fan in the universe. Animation and comics are two different languages. You don't get a great comics book by putting on comics Toy Story, despite Toy Story being an astonishingly example of great animation. And viceversa: the best Barks's story could not be appealing for animation purposes. (Well, the plot can be good, yes, but the plot is 0,2% of a piece of narrative...) Moreover, here we are talking of a television show, i.e. a form of animation constrained by highly specific paradigms (especially in the 80's).
But I recall now that he had said that Disney TV needed to get permission from the main studio to use the iconic stars (Mickey, Donald, Goofy, etc.), despite the fact that they were a subsidiary of the main company
This reminds me of Frank Angones saying that they didn't announce Donald's voice actor right away because the iconic stars sort of "belong" to the main studio, and also saying the main studio didn't allow Mickey to appear in the new DuckTales series (which by the way is a good idea).
This is entirely plausible, and as is often the case, may have been one of many factors in the decision. But it seems clear now that the decision to exclude Donald was based on licensing issues, not considerations related to the quality or nature of the show itself. Both the "we can't let Donald fail" and "if this show does well, we can make more money if it's a separate license" are mutually compatible, logically flow from each other, and make perfect business sense.
Indeed, these two explanations don't exclude each other. Actually, I'd say all four explanation don't exclude each other. I can see something like this happening:
PRODUCER 1: So, we must plan this series based on Uncle Scrooge comics. Donald is Scrooge's helper in all these comics, but should we include him in the series? His voice is hard to understand in animation.
PRODUCER 2: Well, we could drop him. If the series fails, this would damage Donald's reputation.
PRODUCER 3: And even if the series succeeds, Donald may steal the spotlight from Scrooge.
PRODUCER 4: Plus, if Donald has a big role then all the companies with licenses to produce Donald Duck products may claim their licenses include our show.
Honestly, apart from a handful of devoted Barks/comics fans like us, I doubt the target audience of the show cared that Donald wasn't always around. Those previously unfamiliar with Barks' work (which would have been a majority of kids watching after school) probably didn't even know that Donald was supposed to be around.
Indeed, I have heard some Internet comments from people who are surprised to learn that Donald is a major player in Scrooge's comics, and even from people who are suprised to learn that Scrooge is Donald's uncle (the latter obviously missed the DuckTales episodes where Donald appears and interacts with Scrooge).
Back to the DCF thread from your link: on page 5 you wrote "Production on DuckTales began in the early to mid-eighties, just a few years after Bruce Hamilton secured the license to Barks' work". Do you know something more? I didn't realize the show (which premiered in 1987) was planned with som many years of advance.
No, I was just going based on what I estimated the usual production/conceptualization time for such a show might be. Both Gladstone reintroducing Barks into the public eye in a big way, and work on DuckTales, also based on Barks' oeuvre, occurred at roughly the same time, so I always wondered if the former led to the latter (the other way around is clearly not true), or if was just a coincidence.
I am not familiar with the "usual production/conceptualization time" of a weekly animated tv series, that's why I was surprised by the idea that the production may have started before a year or a year and half prior to the show's premiere.
I read the thread you linked (except for page 4 which is not available), and it wasn't the one where I read that info about Donald's absence: the thread I remember was more recent, and in it some user pointed out an old discussion about Donald's absence. Maybe the old discussion was the thread you linked, but if true then the part about Donald must be on page 4, or in a message written after the thread was archived. Too bad, because the wording that was used is important to know if there was a single explanation or several hypotheses.
I remember there were two concurrent threads on the subject, and I see one called "DuckTales sans Donald's Tail", eight pages long and not a single one still viewable. It might have been in that. Mr. Peraza had 8 posts on the DCF, all pertaining in some way to DuckTales, and only one survives. His profile page on DCF is also not archived, so we can't see the other threads he posted on. So unfortunately it seems a dead end, but as I said, I remember very clearly what he wrote.
I think the thread in question, however it was called, was about the new DuckTales series being announced (in February 2015), though the message I have in mind may predate it, since I think the discussion about Donald's voice started shorty before the reboot was announced.
By the way, who was the creator/admin of The Disney Comics Forum? Is he/she someone who also moved to this forum? If we could contact him/her, then we may ask if the archives of the old forum are still available somewhere.
About that archived version you linked: I see that you wrote "the ultimate result was that these "new versions" of classic universes (New Archies for Archie, DuckTales for Barks) had no staying power, and the original versions remain the definitive ones" and "It was popular at the time, but its long term impact on the Duck universe is debatable". While it's true that standard duck comics were never changed to fit DuckTales, I'm not sure that what you said about its (lack of) long term impact is true, at least in the States: unfortunately, I think most American people associate Scrooge with DuckTales rather than with the comics. Also, Disney apparently thinks that it would be a shame not to use the DuckTales brand whenever they take material from the Scrooge universe, which in turn means they will keep the changes made for the series in order to fit the brand (see all video games released during all these years, and even this reboot series). Plus, DuckTales comics are produced, which is a paradox in itself: a comic book adaptating an animated tv series that is an adaptation of a comic book... all because the tv series and the original comic books are not similar enough. Anyway, there are some signs that things may change in the future (unless the new DuckTales undoes them): the 2013 video game "The Duckforce Rises" doesn't use the DuckTales brand and included the comic book version (rather than the DuckTales version) of the Beagle Boys and Flintheart Glomgold, and if I remember correctly the Beagle Boys who made a cameo in a Mickey Mouse episode look like their comic book versions.
Another thing from that archived thread: you asked "What about (in my opinion, the most glaring omission,) Grandma Duck? Was there ever a plan to use her in DuckTales?". Other users offered various explanations for her absence, including the idea that DuckTales writers may ignore her existence, which is most likely untrue. I think the answer is pretty simple: Grandma is a fairly minor character in the Barks universe, as he only wrote 16 stories with her (I'm not counting the stories he drew but not wrote). Of these 16 stories, 9 are Donald stories, 4 are Gyro stories, and only 3 are Scrooge stories (DuckTales is based on Barks' Scrooge stories). Not only that, but one of these 3 stories ("Luncheon Lament") is a one-pager, while the other two ("The Fantastic River Race" and "That's No Fable!") are flashback stories introduced via the framing device of Scrooge telling a past adventure to Grandma. So, we can say that Grandma basically never appears in Barks' Scrooge stories, and the producers of DuckTales followed that principle (not that I wouldn't have liked to see a few appearances, even with minor roles, for her and Gus).
Of course, if the television department of Disney had a low opinion of Barks' comics, well, that doesn't speak too well of them.
Wait a sec. From nowhere you can infer that they had a low opinion of Barks's comics! All we know is that they did not find enough inspiring material in those comics good to easily translate into a tv show.
Indeed, I'll admit is quite a leap from the original wording ("when they had read all of those Barks stories, they returned and said "there's not much there" (which amazed him)"/"his head writers, whoever they were, didn't think Barks' stories gave them much to work with. He knew I'd find that as incredible as he had") to the wording I used ("the television department of Disney had a low opinion of Barks' comics").
Plus, it's hard to comment a thirdhand source: I never read Disney people commenting Barks comics, and I never heard Magon commenting Disney people's comments, I only read Rosa reporting what Magon told him about Disney people's comment. In my defense, I can say that it's not my fault if there are not firsthand sources that discuss these things.
Which is something that one can consistently think even if she is the greatest Barks's fan in the universe. Animation and comics are two different languages. You don't get a great comics book by putting on comics Toy Story, despite Toy Story being an astonishingly example of great animation. And viceversa: the best Barks's story could not be appealing for animation purposes.
Animation and comics are two different languages, that's true, but this doesn't mean that changes are necessary. Take manga (Japanese comics) as an example: when they are turned into an anime, they are usually adapted sequence by sequence, scene by scene, dialogue by dialogue, word by word. The result of this is often pretty good, so I don't see why it wouldn't work for Barks stories.
So, it is an urban legend that changes are needed when translating a story into another medium: changes can be made, and they may be good or bad, but it's not true at all that changes are necessary. Plus, didn't you say yoursalf yesterday that "Sport Goofy in Soccermania" used identical Beagle Boys like in the comics? This shows that, even if the people in charge of DuckTales wanted most episodes to be original stories rather than adaptations of Barks stories (which is a legitimate choice: most of Scrooge's comics published today are original stories rather than reprints of old comics) there was no reason they couldn't keep the Beagle Bloys from the comics. They could change it of course, but we can't say it was necessary to do so.
Post by Scrooge MacDuck on May 28, 2017 12:21:15 GMT
I agree with you on plot's importance, drakeborough. As for changes… I feel like those Disney people wanted fantasy, whimsy, magic, spectacle. Things that would make people keep watching regardless of their involvement in the characters. And they were disappointed when they skimmed through Barks and saw all those "dry", "realistic" urban scenes.
I agree with you on plot's importance, drakeborough. As for changes… I feel like those Disney people wanted fantasy, whimsy, magic, spectacle. Things that would make people keep watching regardless of their involvement in the characters. And they were disappointed when they skimmed through Barks and saw all those "dry", "realistic" urban scenes.
In a way, I can see Disney people having these kind of thoughts, but I don't really understand them. Barks comics are full of fantasy and spectacle, as well as (depending on how we define these terms) whimsy and magic. Reaistic and semi-realistic urban scenes don't exclude spectacle, and DuckTales itself had many urban scenes.
0,2% was a (clear, I though) hyperbole. Do not take everything literally.
I won't doubt it was an hyperbole, but the point you were trying to make is that you think the plot is not very important in judging whether a narrative work is good or bad. I just wanted to say that I disagree with this idea, as I think plot is one of the most important aspects of a narrative work, even though of course is not the only one.