Ducktales 2017

[djnyr]

Jun 22, 2021 19:24:27 GMT alquackskey said:

May 29, 2021 1:00:43 GMT djnyr said:

I've finally gotten the opportunity to come back to this... and what a point to start with.
I don't care what anyone says - not only is the Darkwing Duck universe handled poorly, it's probably handled the worst out of all of the adapted Disney Afternoon properties.
. . . 

Also, one thing that annoyed me in 'Let's Get Dangerous' - the "C-List Villains" gag was pulled straight from the comics (Complete with Ducktales using Jambalaya Jake and the BugMaster, both of whom were used in the comics gag - even though there were plenty of other options), and I didn't like it there either. 
I don't get why there's such a need to rag on some of these villains; Tuskernini, in particular, is a favourite of mine.
I don't see why there's this idea of "If they're not Steelbeak, Taurus Bulba, the High Command or the Fearsome Five, they were lousy and unmemorable".

Alquackskey, once again I wanted to say that it's great to see you back in the thread; your comments are always insightful and well worth reading; I was looking forward to hearing your input on Darkwing in particular, since you've obviously done a lot of thinking about what made that show work. I just wanted to add that I very much like your point about the "also-rans" among Darkwing's rogues' gallery; Tuskerini is a favorite of mine as well.  I also wanted to add a caveat to your comment that Darkwing was handled the worst out of the Disney Afternoon properties; I think it was very badly mishandled, but I would say that Talespin's treatment was as bad or slightly worse; Drake Mallard was subjected to destructive character revisions and was largely sidelined by the "stars" of New Ducktales, but the showrunners, at least, made him the focus of his own introductory episode, while the Talespin characters' episodes were not structured around them and really just used them as props and foils for the Ducks--Don Karnage as Dewey's arch-enemy, and Kit as a counterpoint to the Della/Dewey family pilot drama.  

[alquackskey]

Jun 23, 2021 0:15:12 GMT Matilda said:

Yes, alquackskey--there's no point in having simulacra of Darkwing/Drake and Gosalyn relate to one another without the relationship they had in the original series and in the comics. They become each other's family. Gosalyn has no family to find or go back to. Darkwing doesn't know how to connect to other people. If he ever did know how, he has, as you say, gotten very rusty over the years of living on the bridge and focusing only on his Darkwing persona. When Darkwing and Gosalyn become father and daughter, Darkwing does--grudgingly, humorously--develop his interpersonal skills as Drake, growing along with Gosalyn, as she becomes more trusting, confident and self-defining. That's the heart of the show: not just that Drake/Darkwing loves his daughter, but that the two of them respect each other and mutually call each other to grow as persons, all while they bicker and drive each other to distraction. And with Launchpad there to observe how much Gosalyn takes after Darkwing!

I agree about their growth - the situation allows for both characters to grow in different ways.
I'd also agree on their dynamic being the heart of the show - it feels like a legitimate familial relationship.
They're both constantly learning - there's room for mistakes, they fight with each other, there are certain issues that they don't know how to resolve properly. Yet, when push comes to shove, they will absolutely do what they have to for the other's sake; Darkwing will put up with Herb and Binkie if it allows for her friendship with Honker to thrive (I have my own headcanons around his relationship with Herb and Binkie, but we're going strictly off of the show itself here), and Gosalyn will try a little harder to follow the rules for Darkwing's sake.
It's not perfect, but both inspire each other to do better - not perfect, because Darkwing still has a lot to re-learn and Gosalyn is still a child - but their best.

And, as you say, Launchpad really does highlight the relationship between the two - he's an irreplaceable member of their family, of course, but at the same time, he's sort of an audience surrogate in a way; he points these details out, he has his own thoughts and opinions on the two... even if he's been a part of the family from day one, and is loved by both Darkwing and Gosalyn, his bond with them isn't quite as strong as their bond with each other.

The family of Darkwing, Gosalyn and Launchpad (As well as Morgana and Honker) really is just amazing - as much as the Ducktales reboot goes on about found family, it never comes close to what Darkwing Duck had.

Jun 24, 2021 1:44:51 GMT djnyr said:

Jun 22, 2021 19:24:27 GMT alquackskey said:

I've finally gotten the opportunity to come back to this... and what a point to start with.
I don't care what anyone says - not only is the Darkwing Duck universe handled poorly, it's probably handled the worst out of all of the adapted Disney Afternoon properties.
. . . 

Also, one thing that annoyed me in 'Let's Get Dangerous' - the "C-List Villains" gag was pulled straight from the comics (Complete with Ducktales using Jambalaya Jake and the BugMaster, both of whom were used in the comics gag - even though there were plenty of other options), and I didn't like it there either. 
I don't get why there's such a need to rag on some of these villains; Tuskernini, in particular, is a favourite of mine.
I don't see why there's this idea of "If they're not Steelbeak, Taurus Bulba, the High Command or the Fearsome Five, they were lousy and unmemorable".

Alquackskey, once again I wanted to say that it's great to see you back in the thread; your comments are always insightful and well worth reading; I was looking forward to hearing your input on Darkwing in particular, since you've obviously done a lot of thinking about what made that show work. I just wanted to add that I very much like your point about the "also-rans" among Darkwing's rogues' gallery; Tuskerini is a favorite of mine as well.  I also wanted to add a caveat to your comment that Darkwing was handled the worst out of the Disney Afternoon properties; I think it was very badly mishandled, but I would say that Talespin's treatment was as bad or slightly worse; Drake Mallard was subjected to destructive character revisions and was largely sidelined by the "stars" of New Ducktales, but the showrunners, at least, made him the focus of his own introductory episode, while the Talespin characters' episodes were not structured around them and really just used them as props and foils for the Ducks--Don Karnage as Dewey's arch-enemy, and Kit as a counterpoint to the Della/Dewey family pilot drama.  

Absolutely - Darkwing Duck is one of my favourite shows ever made, Disney or not; I could go on for hours about how much I love it!

Sadly, the point about the lesser villains seems to be something that even some of the people behind the original show feel - hence its presence in the comics.
I can't deny that Darkwing definitely had some dud villains, but I've never really liked the idea of insulting previous works; even for the more infamous ideas, like some games having Jar-Jar Binks encased in carbonite... it just feels like an unnecessary teardown.

As for your last point... my lack of knowledge on Talespin rears its ugly head once more 

My main line of reasoning was because of how thoroughly the characters were botched, accompanied by a dose of fandom culture.
Look at something like Sonic Boom - many people hated the redesigns, especially for Sonic and Knuckles, and the games being abysmal certainly didn't help - yet, by the end of the show's run, people had grown pretty fond of it because it was an interesting take on the Sonic universe. In the same vein, look at the Sonic the Hedgehog movie; at first, many people thought it looked terrible (myself included) because it didn't really look like it fit with the series lore, and because Jim Carrey doesn't really fit the role of Dr. Robotnik. Again, people came around - because it was, ultimately, a harmless thing that was pretty fun to watch, even if it didn't really have much to do with the games.
Part of the reason that public perception shifted on these products is because, ultimately, Sonic is a gaming icon. He's survived worse, and he's not going anywhere - so if Sega want to have the odd occasion where they do something bizarre like that, what's the harm? The main Sonic will still be around.

Darkwing doesn't have the luxury that Sonic does.
Since the show ended, he's had pretty much nothing - off-hand, he had an appearance in a mobile game, and there was a push to have him included in Disney Infinity (which was cancelled before he could be included, though his Ratcatcher and gun managed to make the cut). The comics struggled - they were cancelled under Boom, and they were cancelled under Joe Books - the latter failing much more quickly. For the most part, Darkwing was dead.
Then Ducktales comes around, and Darkwing is in the public's consciousness again! He's not just in it, but he's being hyped up - he's going to make a big appearance, he's going to be a major character - The Duck Knight has Returned!
Except... when he really does come back, it's... well, we've already discussed the changes.

Launchpad is painful to watch, Darkwing is a bland copy of the original, Gosalyn has pretty-much nothing in common with the original.
Negaduck is a prissy TV star that went rogue, the Fearsome Four are TV characters, Taurus Bulba has been scrubbed to make Bradford look better, Steelbeak is a brainless thug.
F.O.W.L. has been changed to be pretty pathetic - while the original was a dangerous criminal organization where even the janitors were a serious threat, now it's just a random hodgepodge of unrelated villains. And, of course, I've said more than enough on the High Command.

The thing is, this is the most popularity that Darkwing has had in years - characters like Scrooge or the triplets will continue to appear in other media as their classic selves.
For Darkwing, however, these changes could stick.
So much discourse around Darkwing now revolves around Ducktales - people talking about how great this iteration of Drake Mallard is, how funny this Launchpad is, how cool this Gosalyn is...
I suppose my strong wording comes down to my fear that this will stick - that this will be the face of Darkwing moving forward.

Obviously, we have the reboot coming along anyway - which seems to be getting a universal 'meh'.
However, it's definitely not being treated as a big deal. There's no hype around it, everyone expects it to be decent at best... for better or worse, it won't have the same cultural impact that Ducktales did.

These characters were front-and-centre in Ducktales, and their butchered carcasses are now what a lot of people think of when they hear "Darkwing", "Steelbeak" or "Gosalyn".
That impact is a considerable part of why I worry for Darkwing's future - the possibility that this will be seen as what Darkwing should be.

Your points about Talespin definitely make sense - it was pretty much never really allowed to stand on its own.
Even the one episode that was supposed to be Talespin's had to be shared with the Wuzzles.
In that regard, I'd absolutely agree that Talespin was done worse - the characters were butchered just as badly, if not worse (Can't comment definitively, myself), and it was such a blatant afterthought. Cramming it in with the Wuzzles was such a blatant "Right, got these two off the list, what's next?" decision, and it was just disrespectful.

However, ultimately, outside of maybe Don Karnage, I don't expect this to have much of an impact on how anyone views Talespin.
Even among the Ducktales fandom, a lot of the response was "Oh, cool, they're doing Talespin too", in contrast with the hype surrounding Darkwing.

Ultimately, it just comes down to me being worried for Darkwing's future, and what this show will have done to it.



Also, for the record, I genuinely appreciate both yours and Matilda's comments (Matilda's was in the Weekly Discussion Threads, which I do plan to get back to once I have the chance to engage with them properly!).
The feeling of validation and appreciation that can come with a comment as simple as "I enjoy your participation here" can mean the world, honestly.
This board has been very welcoming in that regard, but those comments in particular were made while I was in a rut, so they really had an impact. 

[aldwayne]

Eh, I say Jim Carrey was always a good enough fit for Eggman. He's a zany hyper manchild in the games.

Anyway, I'm sure part of the problem with Gosalyn is that they couldn't figure out how to characterize her differently than Webby. I doubt they'd remember that in many ways Gosalyn was just a much younger and female Drake. Nu DuckTales hadn't really carried on Drake's glory hound ways outside of little references or him hating Gizmoduck (which doesn't work either).

[mousemaestro]

Jul 7, 2018 9:47:11 GMT Scroogerello said:

Jul 7, 2018 8:40:20 GMT Pan Maciej said:

I can't find it on you-tube (yet) but on Facebook there is a clip of actress Selenis Leyva talking about playing Fenton's mother M'Ma (the way she refrence her it appears to be her name). She desribed her as "strong working woman" and "sassy" and that she is happy that character will get to have some dialog in spanish as growing up she never seen spanish-speaking characters in cartoon and she is happy latino kids will have some characters to relate.



From what they shown in the clips she appears a totally new character now, much more dramatic and carrying for her son the oryginal... however one scene shown her fliping channals on TV so THAT PART of her personality isn't away. 

Ugh. I'm just so done with this show. Couldn't they just have left her out of the show, and spared at least one character? And the actress' notion that kids can only relate to a person who is of the same descent as them is divisive and plain idiotic.

Old comment but yeah, I never understood that. I understand people wanting to representation on the screen but it is not like it is a deal breaker for most kids. As someone once said go to WDW and you will see kids of all races and creeds dressing up as every princess in the lineup. 

[mousemaestro]

Apr 3, 2021 16:44:49 GMT djnyr said:

Alquacksey: "Also, as someone who tends to miss out on a lot of interviews and the like, where did Anselmo say that? Because that, if true, would be the last nail in the coffin for my faith in this show."

Anselmo talks about the words that Donald can and cannot say, and about the New Ducktales crew's uncooperativeness in crafting Donald's dialogue, beginning at the 14:45 mark and continuing (with some interjections by Terry McGovern, the original Launchpad) up to the 18:30 mark, in this video (from a convention appearance he made in tandem with McGovern):

www.youtube.com/watch?v=THN5IeWM7Sc

They also talk about New Ducktales earlier, beginning around 8:25 and continuing up to about 11:40; McGovern is quite down on it, and his criticisms are quite penetrating, but it's noteworthy that Anselmo, who, unlike McGovern, was allowed to keep voicing his character, also obviously has a low opinion of the show (his reaction when a fan first brings up the show is funny--"can we have another question?").  He mentions how the Three Caballeros show allows him script approval, and seems a lot happier with the production crew of that series. 

Also, responding to That Duckfan's comments; I don't want to take this thread too far afield into Rosa discussion, but you're right, Rosa's two full-length Black Knight stories definitely count as "Scrooge defends his turf" stories.   "Attaaaaaaack!," "On a Silver Platter" and "Beagle Boys vs. the Money Bin" I think of as basically gag stories not really in the same category as long Barks stories like "Money Well" or "The Horseradish Story" or Rosa's own "Cash Flow"--in fact, "Forget It" and "Matter of Some Gravity" could as easily be classified as somewhat elongated gag stories.  I just remembered "On Stolen Time" as another example of a Rosa "Scrooge defends his turf" story, but like most of the other examples, it's on the shorter side and is mainly driven by its high-concept gimmick, with the assault on Scrooge's money essentially just a device  to kick-start the wacky physics. 

I finally watched that segment. 

Terry certainly doesn't mince words. His criticisms were spot-on, IMO. 

I did love how Tony said the original when talking about his animation work on TLM, BATB, and the TLK. Preach. I wish the 2017 DT crew treated him better. The man is a Disney legend and the voice of millions of childhoods. Show some respect but I guess that is not meta enough for the new age folk.

[aldwayne]

It's been some time since I posted here, so I'll talk about none other than Lena.

I'll be upfront when I say Lena by large is the best made of all the show's OCs (although I've warmed up to Mark Beaks and Storkules). She has a well defined issue or arc if you will. Her being a dual stand-in for Mimia DeSpell and Magica's shadow works was actually clever. Her scene kid persona actually fits for a more cynical humor/tone.

The core problems with her:

A. She's bluntly speaking too mature of a character concept for the show's overall tone.

B. She's too rooted in being a member of Webby's girl posse.

For the first. She's more or less Magica's bastard child sent to infiltrate Scrooge's family who was obviously from an abusive/neglectful upbringing. She died. Despite all that, it takes until the episode she's revived where we actually see Webby mourning her post-death. Lena is a character who could be rather compelling if given to different/better writers.

Another issue is that she's too tied to Webby. Who's been pointed out to be a shining reminder of the show's problems. I already suggested this, but the show would be better off if she and Lena were merged into one character with that new member of Webby's team having elements of her put into a less pathetic Huey.

[duckhuefan]

Jun 19, 2021 12:26:23 GMT djnyr said:

Certainly, the treatment of the show’s most idiosyncratic and memorable voice—i.e., Donald—encourages such suspicions. Tony Anselmo was one of the only really seasoned voice actors allowed to play a regular role on New Ducktales--but only nominally, since Donald, as we’ve already discussed, was repeatedly sidelined. Anselmo himself, as he described in the convention panel video linked earlier in this thread, was also sidelined, being denied any input into the writing for the character—whom he’d only been voicing for thirty years. Adding insult to injury, whenever the showrunners wanted us to take Donald “seriously”, Anselmo was replaced with a celebrity “face” actor with a much more generic voice. Anselmo’s mention of how the writers kept begging him to deliver dialogue “as written” is also highly indicative of the showrunners’ lack of respect or understanding for the distinct craft of voice-acting; the voice actor isn’t merely a utensil for the writers, but a key player in bringing a character to life—Daws Butler, for example, developed and refined his Yogi Bear voice from cartoon to cartoon, and developed and refined the character’s personality right along with it.

The New Ducktales treatment of other veteran voice actors strengthens my impression that Angones and company really wanted to keep exclusive control of characterizations by limiting appearances by actors whose vocal takes on the characters were likely to take on too strong a life of their own. Kenny’s Fethry was a guest star only. Terry McGovern was not even asked back to voice Launchpad, even though his inimitable vocal mixture of coolness and cluelessness defined the character (the new actor, in keeping with the Flanderized writing for New Launchpad, just sounded clueless without the cool factor). Jim Cummings was only given one extended guest spot as “Jim Starling,” and was denied the opportunity to re-voice Don Karnage or the “real” Darkwing, both of whom were his own vocal creations. Corey Burton and Tress McNeile were allowed to reprise their established characters, and acquitted themselves well in limited screen time, but I suspect this was a call by Disney, and not by Angones—who, I am sure, would have recast not only Ludwig and Daisy, but Donald as well, if he had been allowed to.

Rob Paulsen, another accomplished voice-acting veteran, was relegated to a minor recurring role (as Gibbous the Moonlander) which barely required him to exercise his considerable talent, and, like Cummings, was not allowed to re-voice a character whose voice he created—i.e., Steelbeak (who was instead handed to yet another celebrity with no real cartoon credentials). Russi Taylor was given a meatier guest-shot/cameo, but could also have been put to better use; although, as mentioned, I wouldn’t have expected her to reprise the Nephews, she would have been a highly appropriate choice for Della (albeit a better version of Della—I wouldn’t have wanted her to voice the show’s actual train-wreck version of the character), and would have been able to make her sound quacky enough to be believable as Donald’s twin sister—unlike Paget Brewster, whose repeated yelling was unable to compensate for her basically non-comic voice and made her Della merely annoying.

Okay, only came back purely for addressing the final dissection. Well crafted even if I don't share the same opinion. I can see we will never see eye to eye on the show and that's okay. People just have different opinions.

That said, just gonna address a couple things.

Anselmo has said in other interviews that they did realize where they went wrong and stopped speeding his lines up and even making the lines more to his liking in later seasons. Plus Cheadle only did Donald in like two episodes. Anselmo is still Donald in various other major roles like Woo-oo, Daytrip of Doom, House of Lucky Gander, Spear of Selene, Town Where Everyone Was Nice, Golden Spear, Last Christmas (mixed with a cute voice cameo from Russi Taylor as the young version), Whatever Happened to Donald Duck, Louie's Eleven, The Trickening, New Gods on the Block, and The Last Adventure so the quacky voice still shines.

The main problem with using Russi Taylor as Della is that she passed away in 2019 before season 3 began recording (which is why they got a different VA for Young Donald in First Adventure who is professional VA Cristina Valenzuela) so they would've had to use someone other than her for Della anyway. Kinda wonder who your choice for another Della VA would be other than Russi Taylor.

I know you think some professional VAs like Anselmo, Micucci (she's been in lots of cartoons as recurring roles in the last ten years like Motorcity, Unikitty, Steven Universe, TMNT 2012, Spy Kids Mission Critical, Ada Twist Scientist, Nature Cat, and the current voice of Velma on Scooby Doo since 2015 (Except for SCOOB and the HBO Max Velma spin off) so she's a professional VA too), and Kenny but how did professional VAs with recurring roles you didn't mention fare like Keith Ferguson (who was in almost as many episodes as various main cast members) as Glomgold, Megavolt, and lots of other voices, Eric Bauza as all the Beagle Boys, David Kaye as Duckworth, and Kimiko Glenn as Lena even the the material they got?

And I'm sure having Tony Anselmo, Tress MacNeille, Corey Burton, and Bill Farmer reprise their usual Disney roles was Angones' decision (or Sam Riegel, I mean he is the show's voice director so you can't blame it all on Angones) rather than Disney making him use them given how they had no problem letting Chris Diamantopolous replace Bret Iwan as Mickey in the Paul Rudish Mickey Mouse shorts, Daniel Ross replace Tony Anselmo as Donald in Mickey Mouse Mixed Up Adventures, and John Mulaney & Andy Samberg replace Tress MacNeille and Corey Burton as Chip and Dale for that live action/animated Rescure Rangers movie (surprised no one's mentioned that at any point).

Gonna log off now, dunno if I'll be back but it's been an honor.

[Pan Maciej]

Doug Walker a.k.a. The Nostalgia Critic did his review of the show as part of his Disneycember series (an advent calendar of video essays where on every day of December he reviews a Disney movie/show/something) and while *Trigger Warning* he is very postive about the show (and LIKES Della) it still nice to listen to an opinion from someone who ISN'T a fan of the comics or familiar with the lore. I do think there is an interesting comment about all characters personalities being a mix of "dim" and "cynical". 

[Matilda]

OK, Pan, that "trigger warning" gave me my biggest laugh of the week!

[aldwayne]

Anyone still cares about Nostalgia Critic?

[That Duckfan]

Dec 22, 2021 20:43:46 GMT aldwayne said:

Anyone still cares about Nostalgia Critic?

Irrespective of my feelings toward DuckTales 2017, I second this notion

[aldwayne]

I mean the cranky online critic gimmick went old half a decade ago. Doesn't help that too many of them like Yahtzee or MrEnter and of course Doug Walker all turned out to be unpleasant in both their online personas and their real personas or belonged to organizations that got caught up in scandals.

[mousemaestro]

Dec 22, 2021 20:43:46 GMT aldwayne said:

Anyone still cares about Nostalgia Critic?

I occasionally watch his new stuff. 

Nearly everything from seasons 1-5 is gold. Those reviews are hilarious. His new stuff has too many skits, he is too pretentious, and he changed his delivery/timing so the jokes aren't as funny. 

[Pan Maciej]

I watch his stuff from time to time. Not the fan I use to first few years when he was very fresh thing but... Eh, ut I find his new stuff mostly amusing and once a while I think he will make an exelent point/observation.

[donalddisneyfan]

I know this site's more critical on the show, but I thought it'd be worth posting news anyway. We're getting an art book on this series showing never before seen concept art, sketches, backgrounds and storyboards of the series with words by staff members (Cast and Crew) and foreword by Matt Youngberg and Frank Angones and will come this October.