I think it's safe to say Don Rosa is not familiar with this character:
>>>>>Also, in fan fiction many people said that Dickie Duck (character created by Romano Scarpa as Goldie's grandchildren) was Scrooge's grandchildren too (to be precise: dickie would be daughter of Goldie-Scrooge's daughter!). This obviuosly fan fiction only, but I wanna know what you think about Dickie Duck (if you know her!).
Someone once showed me a picture of that character, probably when I was visiting Italia, and explained who she was said to be. Well, according to my personal view of Goldie and $crooge, and after my "Prisoner of White Agony Creek", I would be perfectly happy with a character being said to be Goldie's granddaughter. I would have preferred daughter, but no, that would mean she'd be nearly 60 years old even in my 1950's stories, so it's better to jump to granddaughter. (But I can't help but dislike the name -- I don't know about Italia, but here "Dickie" is a boy's name.)
While I have greatly enjoyed many Mouse stories I've read as an adult (Markstein! Casty!), the characters have never attained that level of mental reality for me. They never seem "alive" in my mind in an ongoing way outside their stories. Of course many fictional characters *have* attained that sort of mental "reality" in my mind in adulthood, so it's not a matter of my age when encountering the stories. Just a question of how the stories speak to me. I've written elsewhere (on the old DCF, maybe on GeoX's blog) about why this might be, but I don't want to go into it at length here. One piece of the reason may be that the central Duck characters have family relationships, while Mickey basically just has pals.
To some extent this is all taken for granted if one starts with a Rosarian canon, since Rosa also excludes the Mice from his Duckiverse.
This is very interesting. I can see there is a clear difference between a "good story" and a "real story". I wonder if other people share the same view.
I think there's nothing wrong in using the expression "Barks universe" and "Barks/Rosa universe": the latter basically means "Rosa universe", but since most of Rosa's stories have the characters mentioning adventures they had in Barks stories, then it is not a bad idea to refer to "Rosa universe" as "Barks/Rosa universe", while still keeping the option of mentioning a "Barks universe" in which Rosa's stories didn't happen.
Some have said that using the term,"Barks/Rosa" universe unnecessarily hamstrings other authors, since it implies a continuity between Barks and Rosa universes that cannot be violated. As you say, "Barks/Rosa universe" is essentially "Rosa universe", so in my mind that would be a preferable term.
I understand your point, but at the sime time other people may find problems with the use of the term "Rosa universe". For example, if I say "In the Rosa universe, HDL were sentenced to death when they first visited Plain Awful because they had made bubble gums" I am not sating anything wrong, since "Return to Plain Awful" references the events of "Lost in the Andes!", but it seems that I am attributing a Barks story to Rosa, and some people may take offense with that. Since there are countless similar cases, I guess the use of the expression "Barks/Rosa universe" avoid this problem.
Also, "Barks/Rosa universe" is more than just "Rosa universe", since it also includes Barks facts that have never been referred to in Rosa stories. Of course, the context will tell which is the most appropriate expression in the situation at hand.
Well, this is a bit hair-splitting, but since Barks said Scrooge is Donald's uncle on his mother side, then Barks' unvierse does include a character that is Scrooge's sister and Donald's mother: of course, her design and personality were created by Rosa, but giving her the name Hortense from the unpublished Barks tree, rather than ignoring it and coming up with a new name, increases the level of "barksianity" of her character rather than diminishing it.
To play devil's advocate here, "uncle on my mother's side" could mean mother's brother, or mother's cousin, or mother's uncle. My point is that in his published stories, for the most part, Barks did not clarify the relationships between the Ducks (except Gladstone saying that Scrooge was his mother's brother's brother-in-law). So an author is free to create a different relationship between Scrooge and Donald, or between Grandma and Scrooge, and not violate anything Barks wrote.
Well, Barks had Scrooge saying in multiple stories that Donald is his nephew and HDL are his grand-nephews, so there's no doubt that he meant for Scrooge to be only one generation older than Donald, something that is further corroborated by the Gladstone quote you reported, which makes Scrooge only one generation older than Gladstone, who belongs to the same generation as Donald. Scrooge just can't be the cousin or uncle of Donald's mother.
As for Grandma, if she is Donald's grandmother she can't be the sister of Scrooge's uncle.
By the way, what is "Pennecticut"? A name appearing in some stories, or a fan-made name?
As far as I know it's fan-made and never been used in a story (yet), but it's in widespread enough unofficial use to merit mention on this wiki.
I just googled it and only found the Disney Wiki link you posted (and that's a site that can be edited by anyone) and two threads of this forum (which will become threee after this one will have been indexed): it doesn't seem that widespread to me. By the way, is "Pennecticut" a portmanteau of Pennsylvania and Connecticut, just like Calisota is probably a portmanteau of California and Minnesota?
Where did Rosa say that the "melting snow" scene was meant to allow for Dickie Duck's existence? I know he said it was meant to imply they had sex, but I'm not aware of his saying anything specifically about Dickie.
It's hard for me to see how the denouement of "A Little Something Special" could read the same if Dickie were in Duckburg, or if Scrooge knew of her existence. That's so for me whether Dickie is Scrooge's granddaughter or not. I suppose one could say that Dickie hadn't arrived yet.... But overall, I feel that Goldie's having a granddaughter somewhat interferes with Rosarian Scrooge's idealization of his memory of her (shrine and all!).
While your "shrine" point makes sense, I think Baar Baar simply means that Rosa-canonically, Scrooge and Goldie did do the thing in the cabin, meaning it's not logically impossible that Goldie could have borne a child of Scrooge's, which it would be if Rosa had gone on record saying they didn't. That's not to say that he said anything whatsoever about Dickie in particular.
But if we see the ducks as human beings (as Rosa certainly does), then the fact that Goldie is not visibly pregnant in "Hearts of the Yukon" (January 1898) works against the idea that they had a daughter during the month they spent together in "The Prisoner of White Agny Creek" (from May to June 1897, and they "did it" on the last night): Goldie would have had to be seven-months pregnant.
But if we see the ducks as human beings (as Rosa certainly does), then the fact that Goldie is not visibly pregnant in "Hearts of the Yukon" (January 1898) works against the idea that they had a daughter during the month they spent together in "The Prisoner of White Agny Creek" (from May to June 1897, and they "did it" on the last night): Goldie would have had to be seven-months pregnant.
[/quote]Yes, but Rosa also clearly doesn't believe Dickie exists. The point is not on what Rosa thinks, but about what factual evidence we can get from his stories; and, as, for obvious reasons, he never showed a lady duck giving birth the human way, it's possible to imagine Goldie could have laid an egg.
Yes, but Rosa also clearly doesn't believe Dickie exists. The point is not on what Rosa thinks, but about what factual evidence we can get from his stories; and, as, for obvious reasons, he never showed a lady duck giving birth the human way, it's possible to imagine Goldie could have laid an egg.
But it looks like he actually approves of the idea of her being a direct descendant of Scrooge ... I hadn't been aware of that quote from him, and given that he's the unofficial "Word of God" when it comes to all matters Scrooge-Goldie, it kind of lends credence to the old fan theory.
Personally, I think including a granddaughter for Scrooge changes the whole dynamic of not only Scrooge's relationship with his surviving family, but also of the Scrooge-Goldie relationship as portrayed by Rosa, in a way I don't like. Which is why Dickie Duck does not exist in my headcanon. I know that her relationship to Scrooge (and Goldie) was downplayed in all stories after her introduction, but I'm not sure that she adds anything to the Duck universe otherwise (I haven't read any other stories with her, so I guess I'm still open to persuasion). Did Scarpa ever make clear, perhaps in interviews, whether or not he intended Dickie Duck to be Scrooge's granddaughter? And is it true that Dickie Duck calls Scrooge "Grandpa" in Italian stories; if so, is that considered to merely be a term of endearment or dispositive of their relationship?
But if we see the ducks as human beings (as Rosa certainly does), then the fact that Goldie is not visibly pregnant in "Hearts of the Yukon" (January 1898) works against the idea that they had a daughter during the month they spent together in "The Prisoner of White Agny Creek" (from May to June 1897, and they "did it" on the last night): Goldie would have had to be seven-months pregnant.
Yes, but Rosa also clearly doesn't believe Dickie exists. The point is not on what Rosa thinks, but about what factual evidence we can get from his stories; and, as, for obvious reasons, he never showed a lady duck giving birth the human way, it's possible to imagine Goldie could have laid an egg.
Of course he never showed a duck woman giving birth the human way: there are things that you just can't show in a duck comic, even though Daphne's off-screen birth in "The Sign of the Triple Distelfink" has the feeling of a human birth, since it's obviously how Rosa saw it when writing this scene.
By the way, is the "nine months" reference in the Brazilian story about Donald's (dreamed) marriage also present in the original version, or is it an addition made by the American translator? I am asking it because in the Italian version the line is different, and didn't mention the "nine months".
Thanks for the Rosa quotation, Minotaur. I had never seen Rosa mention Dickie anywhere, and it's very interesting. I will not comment on what Rosa says about her name, *since I vowed never to complain about Dickie's name again* now that it's officially her name in English.
And Baar Baar Jinx (you posted as I was writing this), I agree with you entirely on Dickie-as-Scrooge's-granddaughter shifting things in Rosa's version of the Scrooge/Goldie relationship, and in Scrooge's familial constellation generally, in a way I finally can't accept. Even if Rosa was willing to entertain the possibility! That's why, even though I'm always in favor of more female characters in principle, I haven't let Dickie into my headcanon. Possibly after I've read more stories with her, I will let her in as a grandchild of Goldie but not of Scrooge.
Drakeborough: yes, Pennecticut is a portmanteau of Pennsylvania and Connecticut, in the manner of "Calisota"--an East Coast equivalent. I find the name charming, so I myself have adopted it as the location of Mouseton, since Mouseton is definitely *not* in Calisota (or in the same universe as Calisota) in my headcanon.
I think it's safe to say Don Rosa is not familiar with this character:
>>>>>Also, in fan fiction many people said that Dickie Duck (character created by Romano Scarpa as Goldie's grandchildren) was Scrooge's grandchildren too (to be precise: dickie would be daughter of Goldie-Scrooge's daughter!). This obviuosly fan fiction only, but I wanna know what you think about Dickie Duck (if you know her!).
Someone once showed me a picture of that character, probably when I was visiting Italia, and explained who she was said to be. Well, according to my personal view of Goldie and $crooge, and after my "Prisoner of White Agony Creek", I would be perfectly happy with a character being said to be Goldie's granddaughter. I would have preferred daughter, but no, that would mean she'd be nearly 60 years old even in my 1950's stories, so it's better to jump to granddaughter. (But I can't help but dislike the name -- I don't know about Italia, but here "Dickie" is a boy's name.)
Drakeborough: yes, Pennecticut is a portmanteau of Pennsylvania and Connecticut, in the manner of "Calisota"--an East Coast equivalent. I find the name charming, so I myself have adopted it as the location of Mouseton, since Mouseton is definitely *not* in Calisota (or in the same universe as Calisota) in my headcanon.
Then you are not going to enjoy very much one of the most famous story by Casty, where Mickey must save his state, Calisota, from a drought and economical crisis.
And Baar Baar Jinx (you posted as I was writing this), I agree with you entirely on Dickie-as-Scrooge's-granddaughter shifting things in Rosa's version of the Scrooge/Goldie relationship, and in Scrooge's familial constellation generally, in a way I finally can't accept. Even if Rosa was willing to entertain the possibility! That's why, even though I'm always in favor of more female characters in principle, I haven't let Dickie into my headcanon. Possibly after I've read more stories with her, I will let her in as a grandchild of Goldie but not of Scrooge.
I'd probably be okay with Dickie Duck as Goldie's granddaughter, but not Scrooge's. In a way, I kind of like the idea that Goldie moved on, found love and had a family of her own, instead of waiting and pining for Scrooge for fifty years the way Rosa depicts it (there's nothing in "Back to the Klondike" to contradict that, is there? Goldie seems to be currently single there, but there's nothing that suggests she has not had a family life in between; she could be a widow or a divorcee). But first Dickie Duck needs to prove herself worthy of membership into my headcanon club, and for that I would need to read more stories with her.
Drakeborough: yes, Pennecticut is a portmanteau of Pennsylvania and Connecticut, in the manner of "Calisota"--an East Coast equivalent. I find the name charming, so I myself have adopted it as the location of Mouseton, since Mouseton is definitely *not* in Calisota (or in the same universe as Calisota) in my headcanon.
This is probably worthy of a thread of its own, but on the old DCF we had a discussion about how there were several examples in the early Gottfredson adventures where it was heavily hinted that Mickey's hometown was on the East Coast ... he was referred to as a "little guy from the East" and always traveled west to have his "Wild West adventures". I believe it was Scarpa who decided Duckburg and Mouseton were twin Calisota (or Calidornia) cities, and Gemstone simply adapted that into the English versions.
(BTW, there's a city called "Mauston" in Wisconsin; probably sounds very similar to "Mouseton").
(BTW, there's a city called "Mauston" in Wisconsin; probably sounds very similar to "Mouseton").
Well, considering that maus is German for mouse, that could be the actual origin of the name of that town in Wisconsin!
I want to come back to Matilda's interesting observation that Mickey has no family where Donald has a realistic one - something which makes her feel Mickey's stories a bit less real that Barks's ones. Well, in my headcanon Mickey Mouse is an orphan. Does anyone share my view? I know that Walsh & Gottfredson gave Mickey an uncle Gudger in the 50's, as well as Scarpa provided him with an Aunt Topolinda more or less in the same period. But well, Mickey can call "uncles" and "aunts" all the grown-up members of the family which adopted him at a certain moment of his childhood.
As concerns Donald, I remember Faraci recently expressing the opinion that Disney authors should stop focusing too much on Donald's relation with his family members (and for Gosh sake, stop inventing new ones!), because it starts to look as if Donald was enable to make friends and keep relations outside the cercle of his family clan. Which, according to Faraci at least, sounds kinda incoherent with Donald's personality.
(BTW, there's a city called "Mauston" in Wisconsin; probably sounds very similar to "Mouseton").
Well, considering that maus is German for mouse, that could be the actual origin of the name of that town in Wisconsin!
I want to come back to Matilda's observation that Mickey has no family - something which makes her feel Mickey's stories a bit less real that Barks's ones. Well, in my headcanon Mickey Mouse is an orphan. Does anyone share my view? I know that Walsh & Gottfredson gave Mickey an uncle Gudger in the 50's, as well as Scarpa provided him with an Aunt Topolinda more or less in the same period. But well, Mickey can call "uncles" and "aunts" all the grown-up members of the family which adopted him at a certain moment of his childhood.
I get your point for uncles and aunts, and maybe you ignore stories where Mickey's cousins appear, but… what about his nephews Morty and Ferdie? And his sister Amelia for that matter?
Post by Monkey_Feyerabend on Jul 14, 2017 14:52:28 GMT
Morty and Ferdie are orphans as well in my head canon. I thought that was everyone's opinion! They are a couple of the many little mice orphans appearing in the animation shorts from the 30's and in Osborne-Gottfredson's sundays! Mickey willing to take care of them would then reinforce my view of him being an orphan (coming from the same orphanage possibly?).
EDIT: ok, now I remember about Amelia. Then my view collapses! Or better, let's say that I do not take 100% of Gottfredson's universe, especially for what concerns old stories.
EDIT2: I have just seen on the inducks that Miss Fieldmouse appears in recent D-coded stories featuring Morty and Ferdie, some of them even appeared in the US. I can therefore understand that many of you here assume her to be a serious character in Mickey's universe. There is no sign of Amelia in Italian stories, and that's mainly from there that I take my view.
I think it's safe to say Don Rosa is not familiar with this character:
>>>>>Also, in fan fiction many people said that Dickie Duck (character created by Romano Scarpa as Goldie's grandchildren) was Scrooge's grandchildren too (to be precise: dickie would be daughter of Goldie-Scrooge's daughter!). This obviuosly fan fiction only, but I wanna know what you think about Dickie Duck (if you know her!).
Someone once showed me a picture of that character, probably when I was visiting Italia, and explained who she was said to be. Well, according to my personal view of Goldie and $crooge, and after my "Prisoner of White Agony Creek", I would be perfectly happy with a character being said to be Goldie's granddaughter. I would have preferred daughter, but no, that would mean she'd be nearly 60 years old even in my 1950's stories, so it's better to jump to granddaughter. (But I can't help but dislike the name -- I don't know about Italia, but here "Dickie" is a boy's name.)
I remembered this quote, but given how Rosa only knew the character through a picture that was once sent to him, I think that his message was more about subtly pointing out how he thinks Scrooge and Goldie "did it" at the end of "Prisoner" (something that a few readers can't accept, even writing to Rosa asking if that scene can have other interpretations) than about saying anything about Dickie itself.
I know that her relationship to Scrooge (and Goldie) was downplayed in all stories after her introduction, but I'm not sure that she adds anything to the Duck universe otherwise (I haven't read any other stories with her, so I guess I'm still open to persuasion).
I think the reason she was created was to have a teen character in a world in which everyone is either a kid or an adult. The idea was not bad, but I think the result is not that great, as I never liked the character.
Did Scarpa ever make clear, perhaps in interviews, whether or not he intended Dickie Duck to be Scrooge's granddaughter? And is it true that Dickie Duck calls Scrooge "Grandpa" in Italian stories; if so, is that considered to merely be a term of endearment or dispositive of their relationship?
I don't know if Scarpa ever discussed Dickie in interviews, but it should be noted that "Scrooge and Goldie spent a month together" had not been revealed yet at that point, since the uncensored version of "Back to the Klondike" was still unpublished.
Her calling him "grandpa" is meant to be a way to indicate that she is an old guy and that she supposedly talk like young people do, just like when she called him "St. Patrick's well" as an alternate way of saying that he is old (did Italian teens of the 1960's actually talk like that? Somehow I doubt it).
Drakeborough: yes, Pennecticut is a portmanteau of Pennsylvania and Connecticut, in the manner of "Calisota"--an East Coast equivalent. I find the name charming, so I myself have adopted it as the location of Mouseton, since Mouseton is definitely *not* in Calisota (or in the same universe as Calisota) in my headcanon.
I knew about that idea in your headcanon because one of the very few mentions of that name in the whole web is a message of yours that you wrote last year in another thread of this forum.
Drakeborough: yes, Pennecticut is a portmanteau of Pennsylvania and Connecticut, in the manner of "Calisota"--an East Coast equivalent. I find the name charming, so I myself have adopted it as the location of Mouseton, since Mouseton is definitely *not* in Calisota (or in the same universe as Calisota) in my headcanon.
Then you are not going to enjoy very much one of the most famous story by Casty, where Mickey must save his state, Calisota, from a drought and economical crisis.
Of course, that story is not the only Italian comic which places Mouseton in Calisota: on the contrary, it has happened frequently in recent years.
Also, it seems that Casty wanted to use the name Calidornia but was vetoed by the editor, who demanded the name Calisota to be used instead.
And Baar Baar Jinx (you posted as I was writing this), I agree with you entirely on Dickie-as-Scrooge's-granddaughter shifting things in Rosa's version of the Scrooge/Goldie relationship, and in Scrooge's familial constellation generally, in a way I finally can't accept. Even if Rosa was willing to entertain the possibility! That's why, even though I'm always in favor of more female characters in principle, I haven't let Dickie into my headcanon. Possibly after I've read more stories with her, I will let her in as a grandchild of Goldie but not of Scrooge.
I'd probably be okay with Dickie Duck as Goldie's granddaughter, but not Scrooge's. In a way, I kind of like the idea that Goldie moved on, found love and had a family of her own, instead of waiting and pining for Scrooge for fifty years the way Rosa depicts it (there's nothing in "Back to the Klondike" to contradict that, is there? Goldie seems to be currently single there, but there's nothing that suggests she has not had a family life in between; she could be a widow or a divorcee). But first Dickie Duck needs to prove herself worthy of membership into my headcanon club, and for that I would need to read more stories with her.
Maybe it's partly because I don't like Dickie, but I prefer to think that Goldie is neither a widow nor a divorcee. I think that, from a narrative point of view, it reinforces the impact that Scrooge and Goldie had on each other's life, so I imagine that she focused on her job (with a different working ethic, of course) until she had no money and became the Goldie we saw in the present-time part of Barks' story.
Drakeborough: yes, Pennecticut is a portmanteau of Pennsylvania and Connecticut, in the manner of "Calisota"--an East Coast equivalent. I find the name charming, so I myself have adopted it as the location of Mouseton, since Mouseton is definitely *not* in Calisota (or in the same universe as Calisota) in my headcanon.
This is probably worthy of a thread of its own, but on the old DCF we had a discussion about how there were several examples in the early Gottfredson adventures where it was heavily hinted that Mickey's hometown was on the East Coast ... he was referred to as a "little guy from the East" and always traveled west to have his "Wild West adventures". I believe it was Scarpa who decided Duckburg and Mouseton were twin Calisota (or Calidornia) cities, and Gemstone simply adapted that into the English versions.
I find it strange that Gemstone would base their geography on an Italian story that, even today, has never been published in the USA. Anyway, several old Italian stories showed Duckburg and/or Mouseton on a Usa map, and their position varied from story to story, though Duckburg being on the West cost was usually accepted, with few exceptions. Anyway, you are right that in one story Scarpa placed Duckburg and Mouseton on the West coast, and seemingly liked the idea, given that he reinforced it in an interview (on the other hand, "Calidornia" was a throwaway name that he never used again, and I think in a later story he used "California").
I want to come back to Matilda's interesting observation that Mickey has no family where Donald has a realistic one - something which makes her feel Mickey's stories a bit less real that Barks's ones. Well, in my headcanon Mickey Mouse is an orphan. Does anyone share my view? I know that Walsh & Gottfredson gave Mickey an uncle Gudger in the 50's, as well as Scarpa provided him with an Aunt Topolinda more or less in the same period. But well, Mickey can call "uncles" and "aunts" all the grown-up members of the family which adopted him at a certain moment of his childhood.
Here I disagree: for me, any story in which Mickey is raised by people other than his parents is out of my headcanon just like the stories in which Donald is raised by Grandma Duck.