O'Hara's and Casey's ranks in Mouseton police

[drakeborough]

From the thread Characters' Ages in Your Headcanon:

Jul 2, 2017 23:37:58 GMT Minotaur said:

Jul 2, 2017 14:54:26 GMT drakeborough said:

O'Hara's apparent age depends on the whim of the colorist: in Italian comics he has white hair and so looks like he is in his 50's at least, but I have seen American comics where he has brown hair, and because of that he looked younger, in his 30's or 40's. Since his son is five-month old, I think the brown hair better reflect the age that his creators had in mind for him.

My guess on his age is not based on his hair color, but on his position as a Chief. He does not strike me as an extremely smart person, I figure he could not possibly be younger than 53. In fact, Chief is such a high rank that almost looks unbelievable for an average man. After all, Lieutenant Columbo stayed as a Lieutenant for more than 20 years!

Jul 3, 2017 12:54:02 GMT drakeborough said:

Jul 3, 2017 1:01:57 GMT Baar Baar Jinx said:

As for O'Hara, I think he must be at least in his fifties, and not just because of his hair color or his position; he's drawn with features that are more identified with late middle age than being in your thirties or forties, like heavy jowls and advanced baldness.

You have a good point about the advanced baldness. I could argue that than many men have problems of baldness at an earlier age, but you could argue that many men in their 50's have newborn children.

As for his position, I wonder: what does "Chief" exactly mean? In the Italian version he is said to be a commissario ("commissioner"), while Detective Casey (who takes orders from O'Hara) is said to be an ispettore ("inspector"); on the other hand, Inducks says that O'Hara is an inspector. Something similar happens in the English localization of the Italian book series and tv series about commissario Montalbano, in which he is referred to as "inspector Montalbano", despite the fact that in the original version the title ispettore is given to a character who takes orders from Montalbano. I don't know the exact differences between Italian police ranks and American police ranks (actually, I know virtually nothing about ranks at all), but I wonder if there was a particular reason for these changes. Anyway, I think that Montalbano became a commissario when he was in his 30's.

So, what are the ranks of O'Hara and Casey in Mouseton Police?

[The KKM]

Don't know how this compares to Italian Police.

[Minotaur]

My guess is O’Hara meant to be the head of Mouseton Police Department. But the idea seems pretty far-fetched to me. I would be more comfortable to consider him as a captain.

[RobbK1]

Chief O'Hara is (Mouseville's for us ancients) Mouseton's (for all you modern people) Chief of Police. I like to think that he was appointed by his city's Commissioner many years ago, and will stay until he retires, unless he commits a crime or an act of gross negligence. I like to think that his office is elected, as Gottfredson's Mouseville was ALWAYS portrayed as a town, or, at largest, a relatively small city. It is my impression that in the 1930s and 1940s, only the very large cities had their police chiefs elected. I assume that Chief O'Hara is a "Commander", the highest ranking officer in his city's police department (which probably has 5 or six different branch offices (precincts). I assume that his age is somewhere between 57 and 59 years.

Inspector Casey has the rank of "Detective", which requires more education and training than just being a standard police officer. He looks to be aged in his late 40s. Despite his apparent incompetence, I assume he has been with his city's police department too long to have remained a Junior Detective. So, I assume that he is a Senior Detective, which would likely make him a lieutenant, in a city of that size.

[iggy]

From italian stories I got impression o hara is police commissioner(like commissioner gordon in old batman show) and casey a detective is sometimes talking about how he would like to become a commissioner one day, I think I recall one story where casey was made the new commissioner due to I dont remember what reason.
Actually for me these two are exactly like com. gordon and detective bullock from batmant tas and the comic that went with it, bullock is also chubby and has similar personality

[sirtao]

It's quite hard to make direct comparison because we have THREE police forces covering what the USA Police do: Carabinieri(Military Police but mainly dealing with Civilian crime), Polizia di Stato(State Police) and the Polizia Municipale(the local Municipal police).
They are actually MORE, but it's well beyond the scope of the topic.


Anyway, using only the Polizia di Stato in short(it's more complex than this obviously) in Italy is:

• Officials
  • Primo Dirigente - County Police Head
  • Vice Questore Aggiunto - City Police Head
  • Commissario Capo - District Police Head
  • Commissario
  • Vice-Commissario
• Detectives
• Ispettore Superiore Sostituto Commissario - High Inspector Substitute Commissione
• Ispettore Superiore - High Inspector
• Ispettore Capo - Chief Inspector
• Ispettore
• Vice-Ispettore

[li]Everybody else[/li][/ul]

There have been stories where O'Hare answer to a "Police Head".
O'Hara is always portrayed as the otherwise highest authority in his Commissariato(his Police Building, no idea how it's called in English and i don't feel like to look it up:P)
And at least one story where Casey is promoted to Commissario and a few where he acts as a substitute Commissario for O'Hara.
Also, in the Italian stories there is a complete absence of intermediate people between O'Hara and Casey.

So, O'Hara would likely be Commissario Capo and Casey an ispettore Superiore Sostituto Commissario. Rock Sassi would likely be Ispettore Superiore, as he'd have less seniority in Mouseton but otherwise the same rank.

Everything obviously "compressed" to just Commissario and Ispettore for simplicity's sake.

[RobbK1]

Jul 25, 2017 13:37:14 GMT sirtao said:

It's quite hard to make direct comparison because we have THREE police forces covering what the USA Police do: Carabinieri(Military Police but mainly dealing with Civilian crime), Polizia di Stato(State Police) and the Polizia Municipale(the local Municipal police).
They are actually MORE, but it's well beyond the scope of the topic.


Anyway, using only the Polizia di Stato in short(it's more complex than this obviously) in Italy is:

• Officials
  • Primo Dirigente - County Police Head
  • Vice Questore Aggiunto - City Police Head
  • Commissario Capo - District Police Head
  • Commissario
  • Vice-Commissario
• Detectives
• Ispettore Superiore Sostituto Commissario - High Inspector Substitute Commissione
• Ispettore Superiore - High Inspector
• Ispettore Capo - Chief Inspector
• Ispettore
• Vice-Ispettore

[li]Everybody else

[/li][/ul]

There have been stories where O'Hare answer to a "Police Head".
O'Hara is always portrayed as the otherwise highest authority in his Commissariato(his Police Building, no idea how it's called in English and i don't feel like to look it up:P)
And at least one story where Casey is promoted to Commissario and a few where he acts as a substitute Commissario for O'Hara.
Also, in the Italian stories there is a complete absence of intermediate people between O'Hara and Casey.

So, O'Hara would likely be Commissario Capo and Casey an ispettore Superiore Sostituto Commissario. Rock Sassi would likely be Ispettore Superiore, as he'd have less seniority in Mouseton but otherwise the same rank.

Everything obviously "compressed" to just Commissario and Ispettore for simplicity's sake.

[/quote]In USA there are 4 levels of government: (1) national: Federal; (2) State: Calisota; and (3) County: Duck County; and (4) City: Duckburg.  The Federal Government has The FBI (Federal Bureau of Investigation).  That department has sworn officers (agents and detectives, and marshalls (the latter operating in a given physical area).  They can work independently on investigating Federal crimes, with or without cooperating with state and local police agencies.  The State will have its own State Police and State Highway Patrol, complete with sworn police officers and detectives.  The Counties also have County police, who generally operate in rural areas and urban areas outside incorporated cities, as well as contracting their services to cities too small or poor to be able to afford to operate their own police forces.  The cities of decent size and/or tax bases, operate their own police forces.

Usually, larger cities will have many police stations in many different precincts, each station with its own commander (usually a Captain?).  The "Chief of Police" will be the top ranking sworn police officer in that police department, and will work in that city's central main police station.  He would rank above all the station commanders (captains).  But, usually those very large cities would have a Commissioner of Police, who is appointed by The Mayor or City Manager of that city, and is completely independent of that city's police department, and actually ranks ABOVE The Chief of Police (e.g. The Chief of Police, and, indeed, the entire police department, is answerable to The Police Commissioner.  They are supposed to be completely separate, with The commissioner representing The People's interest in having The Police Department work for them.  The Commissioner acts as a check on The Police Department's power.  I really don't like the Police Commissioner and Police Chief (everyday head of Police Department operations) being the same exact person.  That is very dangerous.  That's the kind of setup that Dictatorships use.

I like to think of Mouseville (Mouseton if you MUST- arrrrgggh!) as a small city of about 100,000 or so (which would be about the same population as some of the larger "bedroom suburbs" of the larger US and Canadian cities).  A city of that size would likely have a separate politician as police commissioner, who can keep watch on The Chief of Police.  In Duckburg, which appears (based on Barks' physical depiction, and activities in his stories) to have been a middle sized US city of about 500,000, the Police Commissioner and Chief of Police would, of necessity, be separate people, representing separate branches of city government.

[drakeborough]

Jul 25, 2017 11:54:12 GMT The KKM said:

Don't know how this compares to Italian Police.

Thanks for the list. Since "Chief of Police" is as much as eight ranks above "Inspector", I wonder why Inducks calls Chief O'Hara "inspector". Has he ever referred as such in an English-language comic? And has Casey ever been referred to as "inspector" in addition to "detective"?

And as for the Montalbano franchise I mentioned before, looking at your list I still can't see why a rank as high as commissario became a lower rank as inspector.

Oh, and now that I think about it, my copy of Disney Italia's Junior Woodchuck's Guidebook, which I haven't read or consulted in so many years despite the fact that it's just about three shelves over me, include a list of ranks, but if I remember correctly it only include military ranks. Not that it would be really useful compared to what I can find via Google today, but still I thought it was worth mentioning as I close my message.

[iggy]

yeah from what i remember from mash, military ranks go the same way from corporal to colonel

[sirtao]

And as for the Montalbano franchise I mentioned before, looking at your list I still can't see why a rank as high as commissario became a lower rank as inspector.

I guess because Commissari still take active part in the investigations, while whatever would be the rank equivalent don't?
Investigates->Inspector.
Investigates, but lower in rank->Detective. Maybe?

This is a question for the translator of Montalbano

yeah from what i remember from mash, military ranks go the same way from corporal to colonel

The Commissari are NATO Code OF-1 to OF-2, the Ispettori are NATO Code OR-8 to OR-9, if that can help

[Minotaur]

Inspector may refer to different ranks.

It can be 3 ranks lower than Chief of Police:

Inspector/commander:Sometimes have an insignia of a single star, analogous to brigadier generals, but in other areas wear a gold or silver eagle, similar to a colonel. "Inspector" is also used as a term for "detective" in the San Francisco Police Department but is two ranks above captain in the NYPD and the Philadelphia Police Department. In the NYPD, Inspectors command divisions, which may be groups of precincts within a borough or specialized branches of the police service.

Or lower than Captain:

Detective/Inspector/Investigator: An investigatory specialist, usually working in plain clothes. This may be in several classes that correspond to higher supervisory and pay grades. In the NYPD, the detective rank is technically a designation: detectives do not actually outrank police officers although they are in charge of cases and are often senior in years of service, and so have a certain degree of authority beyond police officers in specific situations.

[Monkey_Feyerabend]

Jul 25, 2017 13:37:14 GMT sirtao said:

There have been stories where O'Hare answer to a "Police Head".
O'Hara is always portrayed as the otherwise highest authority in his Commissariato(his Police Building, no idea how it's called in English and i don't feel like to look it up:P)
And at least one story where Casey is promoted to Commissario and a few where he acts as a substitute Commissario for O'Hara.
Also, in the Italian stories there is a complete absence of intermediate people between O'Hara and Casey.

So, O'Hara would likely be Commissario Capo and Casey an ispettore Superiore Sostituto Commissario. Rock Sassi would likely be Ispettore Superiore, as he'd have less seniority in Mouseton but otherwise the same rank.

Everything obviously "compressed" to just Commissario and Ispettore for simplicity's sake.

Your interpretation makes sense. But I do not understand, why are you referring to Italian police forces when this stories are all set in the US? 

Anyway, now I was watching the inducks to see if Casey is declared to be a detective (as I remember from Gottfredson's strips) or an inspector, and I have noticed that in Estonian he has his Italian name! Is it an mistake in the database? And if not, why so??? 

[sirtao]

Jul 26, 2017 9:53:45 GMT Monkey_Feyerabend said:

Your interpretation makes sense. But I do not understand, why are you referring to Italian police forces when this stories are all set in the US? 

Because of Drakeburg's self-quoted post.
Given the rank change in the Italian comics, I thought to make a comparison. Said comparison suggested my opinion Italian authors used the Italian ranks in a simplified form.

I have noticed that in Estonian he has his Italian name! Is it an mistake in the database? And if not, why so??? 

Maybe the translators never realised the wordplay and thought it was an actual surname. Which is fair given our previous Head of Polizia di Stato

[Monkey_Feyerabend]

Jul 28, 2017 0:13:42 GMT sirtao said:

I have noticed that in Estonian he has his Italian name! Is it an mistake in the database? And if not, why so??? 

Maybe the translators never realised the wordplay and thought it was an actual surname. Which is fair given our previous Head of Polizia di Stato

  

[Fantomius]

Recently, I came across this story. In this person there this guy. He is called ‘Hoofdcommissaris’ (head (?) chief) in Dutch, which means that he is Chief O’Hara’s superior. He also appears in this story, where we can see that he is seated in the same Police Station as O’Hara and Casey. He is called ‘de baas’ (the boss) by O’Hara and Casey. In that story there is also a guy, who is called ‘de grote baas’ (the big boss). He is superior to the boss and seated in another building. Maybe this information is helpful in researching the ranks of O’Hara and Casey. Does anyone know if these characters appear in other stories than these two?


The Boss in I TL 2638-6. He is called the 'Head Chief' by Brick Boulder.


The Boss in I TL 2554-1. O'Hara calls him 'The Boss'.


The Big Boss in I TL 2554-1