Regardless of the potential Disney Comics reader in ANY country, I would have liked to have seen, as a reader and fan, a more different statue design, and a Mouseville (Mouseton) hero from a different period than Cornelius Coot, just for more variety. As a story writer and storyboarder, I would have made it a point to do just that. As I was drawn to comic books mostly, if not solely, by the "realism" of Barks, I am for more realism in my Disney Comics Universes.
Wow! A Mouse version of Cornelius Coot! Couldn't the ItalianMouse artists and writers have had a bit of originality, and not made this city founder almost an exact carbon copy of Duckburg's founder?
Wait, wait. To be fair, that is one single panel from one single and probably completely unknown story - as thousands of those produced weekly by Topolino one the last seven or eight decades - by one single artist and one single writer. Nothing that has gone beyond that story. The only accountable people for this (cheap, I agree) choice are Panaro and that unknown guy who was drawing this (and maybe the editor).
A problem that I see in many posts by the user Drakeborough - do not get offended, take it as a suggestion! - is that he often posts references to obscure unsuccessful Italian (but also foreign) stories, in the same way as he does for more relevant and influential ones, or even milestones. He should realize that not everyone in this forum has his panoramic view on the Disney worldwide production, hence not everyone here is necessarily able to measure and contextualize the reference.
Don't worry, I am not offended and suggestions are always welcome. That said, I think it would be unfair to suggest I was leading people to believe that an obscure one-shot "founder of Mouseton" character (though he appears in more than one panel) was as famous/iconic/relevant as Cornelius Coot, the founder of Duckburg who has appeared in hundreds of stories since 1952, including classic comics.
You've all missed the point. I didn't make this thread to enlist how many uncles/aunts/other relatives Mickey and Goofy have. I expected you to get imaginative. Don't you have any ideas/opinions about the heroes' lives and experiences before their countless comic stories were told? Something like a mouse version of Rosa's ''Life and times of Scrooge McDuck''?
The problem is, there's not a mouse equivalent of ''The Life and Times of Scrooge McDuck'', for the simple reason that the Mouse Unvierse doesn't have a main character who is old and has a complex personality and adventurous past which makes him what he is today. If the Duck Universe didn't have a character like Scrooge, there could be no "Life and Times" either, since you can't do that with Donald (who is young and an everyman), even though we could still have origin stories like "W.H.A.D.A.L.O.T.T.A.J.A.R.J.O.N.", "The Sign of the Triple Distelfink", "Gyro's First Invention" etc.
There's also the fact that Duckburg is a well-developed city which has a complex history (his founder, Cornelius Coot, has even been a recurring character since 1952), while Mouseton is much less developed, to the point that some countries even assume that Mouseton doesn't exist (in-universe, I mean) and that the Mouse characters live in Duckburg! (I plan to open a thread on that). Given how much more developed the Duck universe is, it's no wonder most readers prefer it.
Anyway, I recall two Italian stories with the statue of the founder of Mouseton, and in both cases it's a different character. In Topolino e la scia delle torpedini (1987), he's called Harvey Exploribus (I can't upload images in this period). In Topolino e l'effetto trasmutatore (1995), he's called Geremia Ratt, and luckily there's already an image of him online:
Paperpedia claims that the surname of Mickey's aunt Topolinda (Melinda in the English version) is Ratt and that Geremia is an ancestor of her. However, the 1995 story doesn't say that, and since I don't think he was mentioned in more than one story this may be one of the cases in which Wikis can't be trusted for family relations.
Also, in Scarpa's Topolino imperatore della Calidornia (1961), it is said that in the 19th century the city was known as Spavent City. Plus, some years ago there was a sticker or something that gave Mouseton's foundation year as 1695, but I don't know if they took that from a story or just made it up.
I clearly made a distinction between mainstream ideas/characters and ideas/characters appearing in a single story, or in a limited amount of stories, and I try to do that in every message of mine. I don't see how else I could have expressed the same concept, once I decided that the two "founder of Mouseton" characters, despite being one-shots, deserved a mention in this thread.
Let me know what you think about this, as well as other situations in which you think I didn't make that distinction.
That said, I think it would be unfair to suggest I was leading people to believe that an obscure one-shot "founder of Mouseton" character (though he appears in more than one panel) was as famous/iconic/relevant as Cornelius Coot, the founder of Duckburg who has appeared in hundreds of stories since 1952, including classic comics.
You are absolutely right, you were not leading anyone to any misconception. Typically you are neutral and correct when presenting facts. I was just suggesting you to add a bit more of context in this kind of posts. (You are not loosing much of your neutrality if you add "obscure", or "not very well-known" or "uninfluential" next to a story.) But of course, my approach cannot work for you. So, do how you feel better.
That said, I think it would be unfair to suggest I was leading people to believe that an obscure one-shot "founder of Mouseton" character (though he appears in more than one panel) was as famous/iconic/relevant as Cornelius Coot, the founder of Duckburg who has appeared in hundreds of stories since 1952, including classic comics.
You are absolutely right, you were not leading anyone to any misconception. Typically you are neutral and correct when presenting facts. I was just suggesting you to add a bit more of context in this kind of posts. (You are not loosing much of your neutrality if you add "obscure", or "not very well-known" or "uninfluential" next to a story.) But of course, my approach cannot work for you. So, do how you feel better.
The problem is, saying that a concept (or character) is not a recurring element but was used in a single story is an objective fact, while saying that a story is "obscure" or "not well-known" often involves a subjective choice, since a story that I regard as obscure may be not that obscure for other users.
That's why I try, when I can, to mention the title of the comic instead of using an ambiguous expression like "one story", to add an Inducks link, to add the country (unless it's obvious from the title), and to add a parenthetical note to mention the year, so that everyone can see when the story was published without bothering to open the link. Sometimes I also add the author if relevant, but all the info is present on the Inducks link anyway, including the number of reprints (showing how famous a story is or is not) and the rating of users.
I don't know how, and if, I could/should try to change my writing style, but I'll remember your words while writing my future messages.
Going back to the original topic here. Despite the fact that I have somewhat limited knowledge of both old Gottfredson-stuff and more current Mouse-stuff - here's my current head-canon for the Mouse-Universe:
I like that Don Rosa made a timeline for the Ducks. The "present" is the late 1940s to mid-1950s. Okay. Don Rosa builds on Carl Barks' stuff, who in turn (kind of) builds on Al Taliaferro's strips. And before that, Donald Duck appeared in Gottfredson's comics together with Mickey & co. I know Rosa considers Mickey fictional in Donald's universe, even going as far as showing characters reading Mickey Mouse comics. I don't like this. I guess in my head-canon, Mickey has become famous enough as a freelance detective to have his own comic series... kind of like how Angus McDuck published stories of himself. So, Donald and Mickey knew each other back in the day.
If Donald was born around 1920, then the Gottfredson-stories with him and Mickey together would take place in the late 1930s to the early 1940s, when Donald is old enough to live by himself in Mouseton. I consider Mickey to be one or two years older than Donald, so the Gottfredson-stories (starting with 'Lost on a Desert Island') would begin in the early-to mid 1930s and run until... the 1950s, I guess(?). When Huey, Dewey, and Louie first arrive, Clarabelle Cow is shown to be Donald's neighbor, so he must still live in Mouseton at this point. I'd date the nephews' first arrival to around 1943-1944, making them 3-4 years old. At some point in between their leaving and the start of Carl Bark's run of comics, the Ducks move to Duckburg.
So all of that was to establish when the stories are set. Okay, so now I'll ramble on about my head-canon backstories to some characters, in which I try to rationalize the limited information I have gathered through the limited sources I've managed to get my hands on and read.
Okay, so Mickey. In 'Lost on a Desert Island' we see him living on a farm. Alone, without parents. Now, I don't know if his parents are referenced anywhere, but since he does some charity stuff for orphans in the cartoons (and also takes care of his nephews Morty and Ferdie) I have Mickey as an orphan in my head-canon. Maybe his parents died when he and his sister were very young? I have read that a fan-name for Mickey's father is Walter Mouse, named after Walt Disney. I like the sound of that, and I don't think it contradicts anything, so that's my head-canon. In the second of the Gottfredson-run of strips, 'Mickey Mouse in Death Valley', Mickey states that he would like a bottle of beer. So he's probably not younger than 18 at this point. Even if the legal drinking age at that time was 18 or 21, depending on what state you were in, early Mickey was a prankster, and I can see him drink beer at an early age. Oh yeah, and Don Rosa's 'His Majesty, McDuck' features a flashback to 1818, where a Mickey Mouse look-a-like is part of the Spanish armada, as a joke. So, while not part of Mouston's backstory, maybe Mickey had Spanish ancestors?
I've read that Minnie is from the countryside. Also, I know there's a story called 'A Mysterious Melody' which is specifically about how Mickey and Minnie met, but I haven't read it. I think it treats the characters as actors, instead of... characters however, so it might not be part of my head-canon.
Goofy. I'd figure Goofy is a few years older than Mickey, and grew up in Spoonerville. Yes, 'Goof Troop' is part of my head-canon... at least partially. I'll get back to that. Goofy is raised by his father Amos, and possibly a mother. I don't know. Goofy and the father sometimes went fishing, as we are told in 'A Goofy Movie'. I'm pretty sure I remember the first 'Goof Troop' episode claiming that Goofy and Pete went to the same high school in Spoonerville. So soon after that Goofy probably moved to Mouseton. He watched Mickey's revue in 'Mickey's Revue'. Then he pops up in the comic strips, wanting to be Mickey's friend in ZM 33-01-08. So flash-forward to the "present" of early-to mid 1950s. Goofy has a kid with Glory-Bee, she dies, the kid turns into Max. This last part is all a fan-fictiony way to connect the George Geef-shorts from the 50s, but I guess people here don't want Goofy and George to be the same character... Also, 'Goof Troop' would have to take place in the late 60s instead of the 90s for this to work, so whatever.
Okay, lastly Black Pete. There's a picture of Pete as a sweet little boy in an old Paul Murry-story, but I don't remember what it's called. I figure he was raised in a nice family. In Spoonerville. With Goofy. The following is just my fan-made nonsense: Maybe Pete's father was a banker. An honest man. Pete was to follow in his foot-steps. But then came along Pete's father's lawyer - the secretly wicked Sylvester Shyster. He seduced Pete to the dark side. Together they committed lots and lots of crimes. This wave of sins culminated in Pete robbing his own father's bank. Then Pete fled Spoonerville, stole a steamboat and ended up taking the role as captain in 'Steamboat Willie' on a trip en route to Mouseton. Also - maybe Pete and Trudy had a kid (P.J.) around the same time as Goofy? Maybe he then fled Mouseton to raise P.J. in Spoonerville, trying to make an honest living as a dishonest car salesman? Maybe he then met Peggy who already had Pistol and married her? (which would explain why P.J. is a cat and Pistol is a dog.) Maybe they then divorced, which is why Peggy and Pistol are absent in 'A Goofy Movie'?
I want to apologize for this wall of text, the amount of fan-fiction-nonsense (especially that Pete part), and also I'm sorry if something doesn't make sense. Thanks for reading, though!
I immediately recognized him! (and quickly underlined my suspicion by looking at the Inducks page)
And you know why? Because one of the most treasured Mickey stories of my childhood was drawn by him. It's this one: inducks.org/story.php?c=I+TL+1942-D
Post by Dr Ivo G Bombastus on May 23, 2018 7:55:04 GMT
I've drafted three or four different documents outlining my ideas about the history of the Gottfredson universe, but I've lost each of them in turn do to computer problems. So this is just me working from memory without looking at all the data I've collected from the comics over the years.
Since Gottfredson stories are grounded in real world events, like the stock market crash in The Plumber's Helper and obviously the War in WWII era stories, most of the comics definitely took place in the year they were released. They can't be slid up and down the timeline without stories contradicting themselves. This makes creating a timeline relatively simple as all events happen in relation to real world dates.
It's possible to calculate Mickey's age based off of Minnie's age in Mr. Slicker and the Egg Robbers. In that story Minnie is young enough that she hasn't gone to college yet and is still living with her parents, but is old enough to marry Mr. Slicker with her father's permission. Some places in the United States allowed girls to marry pretty young with parental consent, but the reference to Minnie's education indicate that this story takes place when she was in her late teens, probably about 16-17 years old. It's safe to say Mickey and Minnie are the same age, so this would make Mickey 16 or 17 when the strip ran in 1930. This makes sense given that Mickey is depicted very much as being a child in early comics and cartoons, only taking adult roles towards the end of the decade. Mickey and Minnie would have been 14 when Steamboat Willie premiered for example.
In The Gypsies we see Clarabelle wearing her Miss Cloverdale 1908 bathing suit. On the one hand the bathing suit looks like something a little kid would wear; on the other hand it somehow still fits her. So how old was she when she won the Miss Cloverdale pageant? Given that other options would make Clarabelle egregiously old compared to the rest of the cast, the most sensible age she got the sash is 13. That would mean Clarabelle was born in 1895. Horace of course is about the same age as her. This agrees with early strips treating them as being a generation older than Mickey and Minnie, with Clarabelle being a friend of Minnie's mother and Horace frequently addressing Mickey as "son".
Treasure Island was from 1932, and that story had Peg-Leg Pete old enough to do a man's job on board the Pot Luck fifteen years earlier when he marooned Captain Churchmouse. We can see he'd already earned the namesake peg-leg as that's how Churchmouse knows him, meaning he either lost his leg while sailing with the Captain or sometime before they met. These details along with Pete's shortlived romance with Clarabelle in The Bare-None Ranch would confirm that Pete's around the same age as her and Horace.
From there we can construct a timeline based information in Gottfredson's stories.
2,000,000,000 BC- ancient species become isolated in the caldera of a volcanic island, where they remain unchanged into the twentieth century.
Middle Ages- the small sovereign Kingdom of Medioka is established.
1754- birth of Jonathan Tobias Mouse to Nathaniel John Mouse and Patience Pricilla Mouse.
1863- Durham and 'Buzzard' Squinch meet on a wagon train bound for the west coast of the United States. While passing near the town of Squeaky Springs, the train is beset by Indian raiders, and Durham buries his catche of gold in a canyon before escaping. Durham dies not long after reaching the coast.
1860s-1890s- Durham and Squinch's families, and those of other successful prospectors like Albemarle Mouse (the grandson of Jonathan Tobias Mouse), make their homes in a coastal settlement that with time grows into a prosperous port city called Mouseville. The Uppacrusts, the Van Astorocks, the Bassetts, and other affluent families contribute to the city's prestige. Opulent land marks like Blaggard Mansion are constructed by the status seeking elite. At the same time small rural villages are settled by farmers in the outlying country.
1895- Durham's granddaughter Clarabelle Cow is born.
1914- Albemarle's great-grandson Mickey Mouse is born. Marcus Mouse's daughter Minnie Mouse is born.
1917- the explorer 'Cap' Hazzard returns from a ruinous safari in the Jujubwa jungle with a young homing ape, intending for it to lead him back to a buried treasure; Hazzard however has been rendered insane by his experience and leaves the gorilla in the hands of Nathaniel Churchmouse, who names it Bombo. Not long after this, Captain Churchmouse is marooned on an island by his mutinous crewmen, Peg-Leg Pete and Sylvester Shyster. They return the Pot Luck to port in Mouseville, unknowingly with Bombo aboard.
1920s- Mortimer Mouse becomes a rich cattle baron with ranches in America and Australia. He wills his vast fortune to his niece Minnie.
1930- Sylvester Shyster becomes a lawyer while secretly leading Peg-Leg Pete's gang of criminals. Pete and Mickey have some unseen encounters, but Mickey does not learn of Shyster's role until the latter conceives a scheme to swindle Minnie out of her uncle Mortimer's country estate....
There's also the fact that Duckburg is a well-developed city which has a complex history (his founder, Cornelius Coot, has even been a recurring character since 1952), while Mouseton is much less developed, to the point that some countries even assume that Mouseton doesn't exist (in-universe, I mean) and that the Mouse characters live in Duckburg! (I plan to open a thread on that). Given how much more developed the Duck universe is, it's no wonder most readers prefer it.
Anyway, I recall two Italian stories with the statue of the founder of Mouseton, and in both cases it's a different character. In Topolino e la scia delle torpedini (1987), he's called Harvey Exploribus (I can't upload images in this period). In Topolino e l'effetto trasmutatore (1995), he's called Geremia Ratt, and luckily there's already an image of him online:
Last time I couldn't post an image of Harvey Exploribus, now I am posting it below even though it's from a panel that has been cut:
The statue is destroyed by a ray and the reader never learns how it looked like before.
While I think Harvey Exploribus is still a one-shot character, the same can't be said anymore for Geremia Ratt. His statue also appeared in the story Gli eroi di Monte Rattmore, from Topolino #3288, published on 28 November 2018. The story is actually the fourth episode of an 8-part series, "Alla ricerca di Topolino", written by Francesco Artibani and drawn by a different artist for each chapter (the 4th chapter was drawn by Marco Mazzarello). The series was created for Mickey's 90th anniversary, and has an X-code instead of an I-code even though the story debuted in Italy and after that was only published in Germany. Despite the lack of an English-language publication, Inducks has an English title, "The Heroes of Mount Rattmore". The parody of Mount Rashmore is obvious.
Here is one panel from the story:
Donald refers to him as "Geremia Ratt, the renowned pioneer! One of the founders of Mouseton!" The fact that Donald is saying it rather than Mickey is explained by the fact that Mickey had lost his memory. As for why he is called "one of the founders" rather than "the founder", my guess is that Artibani was aware of the two conflicting stories which gave two different names for the founder of Mouseton, and tried to find a way so that both stories could be true.
I have also read that the Mouseton school shown in the 2019 "Young Donald Duck" series is named Jeremy Ratt, but I haven't verified it yet. Incidentally, YDD is also a multi-part series made up of X-coded stories rather than I-coded stories, and Artibani was also involved in the creation, even though this time he wasn't the only writer.
Last Edit: Oct 28, 2019 21:29:37 GMT by drakeborough
He can't be an only child—he's got a brother in Scarpa (Pappo from "Pippotarzan") who's been isolated from the outside world for many years; and at least one other sibling has to exist to be the parent of Gilbert, who looks too similar to be anything but a blood relative.
(Would like to say more, but too busy... this is an awful week...)
Not to mention that Gilbert calls and refers to Goofy as "Uncle Goofy", and Goofy refers to Gilbert as "my nephew".