sirtao please refrain from using such volatile language. We talked about this before. I know you didn't intend to target anyone in specific here, but it still poisons the tone of discussion to go from a general discussion to holding up political boogiemen.
I understand your, and Rosa's, point that "writing a good Daisy is not writing Daisy". I'd argue it's reductive, because we've constant evidence in post 90s cartoons that it IS possible to write a Daisy that keeps her traits yet is not insufferable to watch. If Quack Pack, House of Mouse, the Mickey Christmas specials, new Mickey shorts can do it, why can't the comics?
As drakeborough noted, I've opened a thread much like this in Papersera. Asking more specifically for good stories about her, though. I like the idea, in long-form fiction like this, of cross-referencing various stories and depictions and from the average of them extract the ideal version of a character. An example for me, which I don't know how much it means to anyone else here, would be with Sonic the Hedgehog- my ideal Sonic is made from crossing the Sonic OVA, Sonic X, Sonic and the Black Knight, Sonic Boom, dashes of Sonic the Comic. In the same way, I want to believe that if I manage to read a good bunch of Daisy stories that are considered to be great, I might get a grasp on an ideal average Daisy that's tolerable and fun to read.
In the 1990's I was teaching graduate students, and I asked a class if they could name a female character in a regular weekly TV show who was in authority over men as well as women (boss, superior officer, elected official) who was viewed positively by those under her authority. (They think she's doing a great job, they like her, they're proud to be working for her.) The students came up with only one name: Captain Janeway of Star Trek: Voyager.
I can think of a few examples from modern shows, like police procedurals, but generally speaking I watch more movies than weekly tv shows.ive characters.
Yup, things have definitely gotten better in popular culture since the 1990's. I gave that example only to demonstrate that this particular sexist trope (woman in authority is unlikable) held sway here not so long ago...as a pattern, not just as an instance here and there.
As drakeborough noted, I've opened a thread much like this in Papersera. Asking more specifically for good stories about her, though. I like the idea, in long-form fiction like this, of cross-referencing various stories and depictions and from the average of them extract the ideal version of a character. An example for me, which I don't know how much it means to anyone else here, would be with Sonic the Hedgehog- my ideal Sonic is made from crossing the Sonic OVA, Sonic X, Sonic and the Black Knight, Sonic Boom, dashes of Sonic the Comic. In the same way, I want to believe that if I manage to read a good bunch of Daisy stories that are considered to be great, I might get a grasp on an ideal average Daisy that's tolerable and fun to read.
Yep, that's why I ended my initial post with a request for stories where Daisy comes off better. Still hoping for suggestions of comics stories, in addition to cartoons! If you get some responses on the Papersera thread, could you pass them on, please?
I sort of worry that Italians have given up on Daisy and turned to Brigitta as the main female to write stories about in the Duckiverse. That may not be true...it may be just an artifact of my experience looking for stories drawn by Silvia Ziche. Lots more focusing Brigitta than on Daisy. Of course, that could just reflect a concentration on Scrooge stories rather than Donald stories, too.
"Positive role model" is not the term I'd use for what I'd want for Daisy. Like, Donald can conventionally hardly be called a positive role model. Neither can Goofy. Mickey can per the animated canon, but since I vastly prefer the self-destructive one from Gottfredson and Egmont, I wouldn't call him that either. Ditto for Minnie. Unless "positive role model" is defined as emphasizing the good (Donald's persistence, Goofy's gentleness, Mickey's sense of justice, and Minnie's insightfulness) while offering a clear look on their negative qualities, why they have them, and how they and their environment cope with it (Donald's persistence, Goofy's... slowness, Mickey's aforementioned self-destruction, and Minnie's passivity).
Daisy's traits do not necessarily have to be changed (it's an option), as long as their context is questioned and reshaped from her perspective. Donald is/was aggressive, manipulative, and abusive too, but when the story's sympathy isn't/wasn't with the nephews, we got to see positive qualities in Donald, like his courage and dedication, and we got insight into why he acted the way he did, paving the way (along with changing norms; ie, that time he accidentally gassed Daisy's chickens isn't going to be repeated not because of Donald but because animal abuse is no longer considered a source of humor. Same for murdering Goofy) for the more balanced character he is today. I mentioned before that I like Donald's Dilemma, which hardly can be considered a flattering portrayal of Daisy. She's selfish, aggressive, violent, and so on. But the short does a good job (A+ on voice acting!) of motivating her actions and make her behavior understandable in a way rare for her, but common for Donald.
Ah, well said, whatevs! Yes, yes, we don't need to remove her "negative" traits, necessarily, or make her any more noble. But we need to be able to see things from her POV and to understand her motivation and behavior. That will, as you say, pave the way for a more balanced characterization, with believable positive elements.
The Korhonen story I mentioned above, Another One for the Album, does a very nice job of motivating her outburst at Donald...and of making you see that Donald can see the outburst and miss the motivation! So Donald in this scene is a stand-in for basically the whole history of Duck comics in its view of Daisy.
As drakeborough noted, I've opened a thread much like this in Papersera. Asking more specifically for good stories about her, though. I like the idea, in long-form fiction like this, of cross-referencing various stories and depictions and from the average of them extract the ideal version of a character. An example for me, which I don't know how much it means to anyone else here, would be with Sonic the Hedgehog- my ideal Sonic is made from crossing the Sonic OVA, Sonic X, Sonic and the Black Knight, Sonic Boom, dashes of Sonic the Comic. In the same way, I want to believe that if I manage to read a good bunch of Daisy stories that are considered to be great, I might get a grasp on an ideal average Daisy that's tolerable and fun to read.
Yep, that's why I ended my initial post with a request for stories where Daisy comes off better. Still hoping for suggestions of comics stories, in addition to cartoons! If you get some responses on the Papersera thread, could you pass them on, please?
I sort of worry that Italians have given up on Daisy and turned to Brigitta as the main female to write stories about in the Duckiverse. That may not be true...it may be just an artifact of my experience looking for stories drawn by Silvia Ziche. Lots more with Brigitta than with Daisy. Of course, that could just reflect a concentration on Scrooge stories rather than Donald stories, too.
One of my writing partners, Frank Jonker, writes some stories for "Katrien" magazine. He told me that the main idea is for the stories to put female characters in "a good light", being successful, responsible and competent, and likeable as characters. So, I know that you would especially like the longer stories in that series. Unfortunately, I, myself don't get a subscription to Katrien. And they almost never turn up in second hand sections of comics shops or book stores (unlike DD Weekblad, DD Extra, and Vakantieboek and Winterboek, and DD Grapigste Verhalen, etc. So, I would have a hard time getting some for you. I don't know anyone, anymore, who goes around hunting for 2nd hand Dutch comics like I and several of my friends did in the past. Maybe some of the younger Dutch members of this forum can help you get some. Sanoma, itself may sell back issues for the last 6 months. But, I doubt that they'd ship them outside Europe. I
As drakeborough noted, I've opened a thread much like this in Papersera. Asking more specifically for good stories about her, though. I like the idea, in long-form fiction like this, of cross-referencing various stories and depictions and from the average of them extract the ideal version of a character. An example for me, which I don't know how much it means to anyone else here, would be with Sonic the Hedgehog- my ideal Sonic is made from crossing the Sonic OVA, Sonic X, Sonic and the Black Knight, Sonic Boom, dashes of Sonic the Comic. In the same way, I want to believe that if I manage to read a good bunch of Daisy stories that are considered to be great, I might get a grasp on an ideal average Daisy that's tolerable and fun to read.
Yep, that's why I ended my initial post with a request for stories where Daisy comes off better. Still hoping for suggestions of comics stories, in addition to cartoons! If you get some responses on the Papersera thread, could you pass them on, please?
I sort of worry that Italians have given up on Daisy and turned to Brigitta as the main female to write stories about in the Duckiverse. That may not be true...it may be just an artifact of my experience looking for stories drawn by Silvia Ziche. Lots more with Brigitta than with Daisy. Of course, that could just reflect a concentration on Scrooge stories rather than Donald stories, too.
One of my writing partners, Frank Jonker writes many stories for "Katrien" magazine. He says that the editorship wants the stories to put female characters in a good light, behaving responsibly, competently, courageously, being successful, working hard towards goals, and being respected for their achievements. I know you'd like especially their longer stories. But, unfortunately, I don't get a subscription to the magazine, and it isn't really collected much, so its issues don't show up in the regular second hand sales points. And, I don't look for 2nd hand comics anymore, and neither do any of my friends. Maybe some of the younger Dutch members of this forum could help you get some. Perhaps Sanoma sells back issues for up to 6 months before. But, i doubt that they would ship them out of Europe. You could check on that.
One of my writing partners, Frank Jonker, writes some stories for "Katrien" magazine. He told me that the main idea is for the stories to put female characters in "a good light", being successful, responsible and competent, and likeable as characters. So, I know that you would especially like the longer stories in that series. Unfortunately, I, myself don't get a subscription to Katrien. And they almost never turn up in second hand sections of comics shops or book stores (unlike DD Weekblad, DD Extra, and Vakantieboek and Winterboek, and DD Grapigste Verhalen, etc. So, I would have a hard time getting some for you. I don't know anyone, anymore, who goes around hunting for 2nd hand Dutch comics like I and several of my friends did in the past. Maybe some of the younger Dutch members of this forum can help you get some. Sanoma, itself may sell back issues for the last 6 months. But, I doubt that they'd ship them outside Europe. I
Thanks, Rob, for thinking about how I might get hold of some issues of Katrien. I appreciate the thought, even if there aren't any easy answers! I've been able to buy some Dutch Duck comics (the pocketbooks, not weeklies) on Dutch eBay, but I've never seen any copies of Katrien there, either. I wish they would publish some "best of Katrien" TPB or pocketbook collections, which might actually end up on eBay! It's actually interesting to know that back issues of Katrien rarely turn up in comics shops or book stores. So, even if I could afford to travel to the Netherlands (which I would *love* to do, for many reasons!), I wouldn't easily find them.
Yes, if there are any other Dutch members of this forum who know how I might get back issues of Katrien, please message me!
It is understandable to expect Daisy to be more likable, by all means she is an important character, maybe the most important female among protagonists! The reader would expect an important character to be likable, otherwise it's very hard to stick to the story. Frank Underwood is clearly a villain in House of Cards, but he has certain traits that make him attractive, for audience's sake.
One of my writing partners, Frank Jonker, writes some stories for "Katrien" magazine. He told me that the main idea is for the stories to put female characters in "a good light", being successful, responsible and competent, and likeable as characters. So, I know that you would especially like the longer stories in that series. Unfortunately, I, myself don't get a subscription to Katrien. And they almost never turn up in second hand sections of comics shops or book stores (unlike DD Weekblad, DD Extra, and Vakantieboek and Winterboek, and DD Grapigste Verhalen, etc. So, I would have a hard time getting some for you. I don't know anyone, anymore, who goes around hunting for 2nd hand Dutch comics like I and several of my friends did in the past. Maybe some of the younger Dutch members of this forum can help you get some. Sanoma, itself may sell back issues for the last 6 months. But, I doubt that they'd ship them outside Europe. I
Thanks, Rob, for thinking about how I might get hold of some issues of Katrien. I appreciate the thought, even if there aren't any easy answers! I've been able to buy some Dutch Duck comics (the pocketbooks, not weeklies) on Dutch eBay, but I've never seen any copies of Katrien there, either. I wish they would publish some "best of Katrien" TPB or pocketbook collections, which might actually end up on eBay! It's actually interesting to know that back issues of Katrien rarely turn up in comics shops or book stores. So, even if I could afford to travel to the Netherlands (which I would *love* to do, for many reasons!), I wouldn't easily find them.
Yes, if there are any other Dutch members of this forum who know how I might get back issues of Katrien, please message me!
I seem to remember being informed that I had a story of mine printed in Katrien and a couple in Katriens Dagboek (Daisy's Diary). The Diary "stories" aren't stories, at all, but are one-page gags. So, those wouldn't be what you want. But, I'd like to get the Katrien Magazines that contain my stories. When I'm warned that I've just had a printing, I plan to ask a friend who works in or visits The Sanoma office to get one for me. But, Usually, I forget to do that until it is too late. Then, I still have a chance to order it from the back issues dept. But, I often forget until it is too late for that (used to be 4 to 6 months. But, I don't know if they still keep back issues for a while, and they still can be ordered. Usually the books are off the shelves before I can get to them. If I have a Weekblad printing, the office sends them to me. But, for the special books, I have to ask for them, right away. Often, I am away in Denmark, Germany, Canada or USA.
Well, in the earlier Taliaferro strips, she seemed somewhat senile. Of course, as other writers started to develop her, she changed into the character she is today. Many characters have to go through various stages of development before getting into their definitive version: just think of Scrooge and Gladstone.
Any chance people writing about me as a sharp cookie could make MY memory problems go away??? My character could still use some development and improvement!
It would be fun, if things like that could actually be done in real life...
I understand your, and Rosa's, point that "writing a good Daisy is not writing Daisy". I'd argue it's reductive, because we've constant evidence in post 90s cartoons that it IS possible to write a Daisy that keeps her traits yet is not insufferable to watch. If Quack Pack, House of Mouse, the Mickey Christmas specials, new Mickey shorts can do it, why can't the comics?
It is reductive in a way, since there are good portrayals of Daisy in both animation and comics, but I wouldn't mention Quack Pack among them, since I view it as an awful show that also twisted the appearance and background/personality of the characters, Daisy included.
One of my writing partners, Frank Jonker, writes some stories for "Katrien" magazine. He told me that the main idea is for the stories to put female characters in "a good light", being successful, responsible and competent, and likeable as characters.
I think Barks was asked something similar at the end of his career, but I should check it to be sure.
I seem to remember being informed that I had a story of mine printed in Katrien and a couple in Katriens Dagboek (Daisy's Diary).
The "Daisy's Diary" stories are a hit or miss: some of them manage to portray Daisy in a more positive light, taking advantage from the fact that the story follows her point of view; other stories still portray her in a negative light, and in this case she seems worse than usual because of the fact that we can follow her thoughts.
On the "ideas/interpretations that bug you" thread I brought up the treatment of Daisy's character, and alquackskey mentioned that he might look up some of the stories I thought show Daisy in a better light. So I thought I'd resurrect this thread to post a list of my favorite Daisy stories.
Some of these are just fun because Daisy gets to be adventurous and competent and is portrayed quite positively. The stories I'd say do the most to develop her character are Daringly Different, A Páscoa É Nossa, Sorcerer of the Swamp and Pass the Parchment. In childhood I longed for Duck stories where a female character would get to go on adventures; the Daisy stories that would have satisfied that need the best are Himalayan Hideout, A Heart-Sized Ruby, Sorcerer of the Swamp and A Caverna das Sereias.
As I've said elsewhere, I think the Brazilian "New Daisy" stories of the 1980's that work the best today are the ones with more of a fantasy setting, where she deals with Amazons or mermaids. Many of the New Daisy stories are (happily) dated, because the point is "Look! A woman can learn martial arts! A woman can be a forest ranger!" Actually, those stories would have been out-of-date in the USA even when first published; the USA must have been at least a decade ahead of Brazil in such matters. A story where she encounters mermaids (A Caverna Das Sereias) is more timeless.
A Páscoa É Nossa is a fine Brazilian Daisy story that isn't listed as a New Daisy story; it is set in everyday Duckburg but there's nothing dated about it. Daisy resists Scrooge's capitalist takeover of the Easter candy market by gathering folks to make their own Easter chocolates. It's funny and visually memorable (large chocolate bubbles causing neighborhood chaos!), and Daisy takes a strong stand against Scrooge's monopoly and is victorious (because, as the title says, Easter is ours!).
I also like how Daisy is ready to show solidarity with boss-oppressed Miss Quackfaster in Direitos E Deveres.
The KKM: Did you get any suggestions of good Daisy stories on your Papersera thread?
EDIT: I should add to the list Janet Gilbert's 2007 story Crime by the Book --Daisy the reader of detective novels by Sheri Holmes vs. the Beagle Boys. Daisy's great in that story. I didn't think of it before because I don't re-read it because, frankly, the art makes my eyes hurt. I like the plot/dialogue, though.
On the "ideas/interpretations that bug you" thread I brought up the treatment of Daisy's character, and alquackskey mentioned that he might look up some of the stories I thought show Daisy in a better light. So I thought I'd resurrect this thread to post a list of my favorite Daisy stories.
Some of these are just fun because Daisy gets to be adventurous and competent and is portrayed quite positively. The stories I'd say do the most to develop her character are Daringly Different, A Páscoa É Nossa, Sorcerer of the Swamp and Pass the Parchment. In childhood I longed for Duck stories where a female character would get to go on adventures; the Daisy stories that would have satisfied that need the best are Himalayan Hideout, A Heart-Sized Ruby, Sorcerer of the Swamp and A Caverna das Sereias.
As I've said elsewhere, I think the Brazilian "New Daisy" stories of the 1980's that work the best today are the ones with more of a fantasy setting, where she deals with Amazons or mermaids. Many of the New Daisy stories are (happily) dated, because the point is "Look! A woman can learn martial arts! A woman can be a forest ranger!" Actually, those stories would have been out-of-date in the USA even when first published; the USA must have been at least a decade ahead of Brazil in such matters. A story where she encounters mermaids (A Caverna Das Sereias) is more timeless.
A Páscoa É Nossa is a fine Brazilian Daisy story that isn't listed as a New Daisy story; it is set in everyday Duckburg but there's nothing dated about it. Daisy resists Scrooge's capitalist takeover of the Easter candy market by gathering folks to make their own Easter chocolates. It's funny and visually memorable (large chocolate bubbles causing neighborhood chaos!), and Daisy takes a strong stand against Scrooge's monopoly and is victorious (because, as the title says, Easter is ours!).
I also like how Daisy is ready to show solidarity with boss-oppressed Miss Quackfaster in Direitos E Deveres.
The KKM: Did you get any suggestions of good Daisy stories on your Papersera thread?
Thank you for putting this list together!
The INDUCKS links are especially helpful - some of them are actually fairly readily available! It's always good to see Daisy being written well, so I might try to pick up some of the ones listed. Sadly, I don't have anything to contribute myself, but it's great to see these works being listed together!
Resident autistic, diabetic duck fan.
I love hearing about bizarre/obscure Disney works - recommendations welcome!
There are plenty of short Brazilian stories from the late 1980s involving Donald, Fethry and Daisy that are quite funny and play on the interaction between two male characters and DA, not to mention the superb art by Irineu Soares Rodrigues at his best in this period. As an example, you may want to check also B 880067 which features a great Daisy.
There are plenty of short Brazilian stories from the late 1980s involving Donald, Fethry and Daisy that are quite funny and play on the interaction between two male characters and DA, not to mention the superb art by Irineu Soares Rodrigues at his best in this period. As an example, you may want to check also B 880067 which features a great Daisy.
Thanks! I've looked for the one you mention, and am asking a French seller whether they'd be willing to ship their copy to me in the USA (seller lists as only shipping within France). The German copy is in Minnie, and I've never found copies of Minnie for sale online. Apparently German girls/women are less likely to keep and catalog and later sell their comics than German boys/men! I have found copies of the French and Italian girlie Disney comics on their countries' eBays.
Pet peeve: I do wish that Journal de Mickey had used a numbering system that didn't make it possible to confuse issue numbers with years. Makes it much more difficult to look online for a copy of Journal de Mickey 1980!
I can try to send you some scans if you wish (non-very high resolution so they wouldn't replace the actual comics).
It seems to me that Disney comics fandom has evolved a lot; a lot of discussions in this forum are highly-specialized and focuses on rare materials. Ten or 15 years ago a lot of people would find very strange any mention of Brazilian Disney comics.