The Donald Duck magazine is the most widely read children's magazine between the ages of 6 and 12. And, according to me, a Rosa comic appeared in the weekly magazine, but he only signed it.
There was indeed one short art-only story very early in Rosa's career (written by Evert Geradts, I believe) that was printed in the weekly magazine. But that's besides the point, really; all other Rosa stories (i.e. the stuff he's known for) were never printed in the weekly, and therefore of no interest to the publishers when selecting stories for their most-read product. Thom Roep, the former editor-in-chief of the weekly for many years, was especially critical of Rosa. Even when they printed the family tree, they had a Dutch artist redraw it, so that it wouldn't have the unappealing style of Rosa's art.
Eddy van Schuylenburg (Art Editor at Oberon/Geïllustreerde Pers/VNU) also was very critical of Rosa's work. I'm pretty sure that Michel Nadorp didn't like it. I have several Dutch friends that DO like his art a lot. But they are a small minority. And, among the people who know the technical aspects of art well, the artists, his drawing is not held in high esteem. His fans generally like his work because it is "different" from that of almost all of the rest of the Disney Comics artists. As I've stated before, I'd never have dreamed of asking Robert Crump to Draw Disney Comic Books.
The Donald Duck magazine is the most widely read children's magazine between the ages of 6 and 12. And, according to me, a Rosa comic appeared in the weekly magazine, but he only signed it.
Don Rosa drew four stories for Oberon, and wrote one entirely and finished a Gyro Gearloose story that Carl Barks had written and drawn only the first few pages of. The editor had another artist pencil the first page of "On a Silver Platter" to show Rosa how they wanted him to draw the ducks. To be fair, this was still early in Don's career.
I don't agree. I think that Barks' drawing is much, much more "realistic" than that of Rosa. Barks' people and backgrounds, natural things (landforms, plantlife), architecture, ALL look much more like what we see in life than Rosa's depictions, all of which just look like 2-dimensional lines on a peace of paper.
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To expound upon my point, and even apply it to Rosa, himself, I like his unfinished scribbles, which are loose, and fluid, and actually DO suggest movement, much, much, much,much better than his stiff, unlifelike, inked drawings. I can't even wade through his inked stories. I can't even discern what is going on in them (just a cluttered bunch of lines). I can actually read Rosa's scribbles, and tell what is going on. I would actually read Don Rosa's stories if his scribbles were printed in physical comic books. The same would be true for stories written by some of the great Duck writers, who can also draw well, and whose storyboard scribbles are beautiful art (Jan Kruse, Evart Geradts, Gorm Transgaard, Frank Jonker). I'd rather read their printed scribbles than inked pages drawn and inked by stiff-handed finishing artists.
Well, I guess this just comes down to the fact that we like different art styles. I've never thought of Rosa's art as "stiff", and to me it's more than 2-dimensional lines. I think I sort of can see what you mean, but in the end I disagree. It looks perfectly fine to me. I like that Rosa puts in a lot of details. I know some of you think it looks like an inky mess, but I like my comicbook art to be detailed. However I do agree that he has gone too far in some places...
When it comes to Rosa's sketches, once again, I disagree with you. I very much prefer Rosa's finished art to his sketches. However, I do find your opinion fascinating. It's nice that two people can think of this so differently. It just goes to show that art is subjective.
Post by Monkey_Feyerabend on May 27, 2018 16:20:52 GMT
Yeah, it seems to me that Italy and the Netherlands are the two most 'closed' countries when it comes to Disney comics tastes, and Rosa is a bit alternative to both schools. Interestingly, the two schools go in opposite directions: the Dutch one is little, relatively young (started in the second half of the 70's) and extremely Barks-oriented...with an attachment to tradition that actually almost goes back to some elements of Taliaferro's strips! The Italian one is independent since the 50's, developed around a different page format, and tending to reinvent itself continuously over the decades. It is therefore not surprising that Rosa's work never find space in the weekly Dutch magazine nor in the weekly Italian one. His duck stories are just perceived as *a different kind of comics*. Which it is, so why not.
I have found all your comments on Rosa's arts compared to other artists very interesting.
In Sweden, where I grew up, all I've ever heard is praise for Don Rosa (and as stated, I too adore his work). Before I became a member in this forum, I wasn't aware that people have such a dislike for Rosa's work in other places of the world.
I think this is the main reason why Rosa's stories are so insanely popular in Scandinavia--he never gets any criticism. It reminds me of the tale of the Emperor's new clothes: the snobbish idea that, if you don't see what's good about it, you simply don't understand it (Rosa especially had a strong tendency to this, saying things like "only real Barks fans will fully appreciate my work" and such). Consequently, Everybody jumps on the bandwagon of "it must be great", and nobody questions it. In the Netherlands, people (including the publishers) were much more rational and critical when it came to Rosa's work, and, as such, Rosa's work is much, much less popular here than in other European countries, while the Donald Duck comics/characters are still extremely popular here, and have been a cultural icon here since the 1950s. In fact, none of Rosa's work has ever appeared in the Dutch Donald Duck Weekly, which is by far the most read and subscribed to Disney comic magazine (perhaps even the most read magazine in general) in the Netherlands.
The following is not about his art, but still Rosa-related. I really like that Rosa tries to adhere to a consistent universe, with continuity and canon, and what not. I also like that he stuck the flag in the ground and said "the stories take place in the 50s". I can see why people don't like it; it certainly limits what you can do with the characters and what stories you can tell. But to have the stories set in a specific time grounds them and makes them feel more real to me. They become something more than cartoon characters.
Still, it goes directly against what Barks intended. Barks had a "floating timeline", where everything just takes place in the "present", and NEVER intended Duckburg to be frozen in the 50s. Plenty of his stories clearly take place in the 1960s (the then-present), including "The Not so Ancient Mariner", where (beatnik) Gladstone and Daisy have been updated to the trends of the 1960s, and "North of the Yukon", where 1898 is referred to as "68 years ago". I can't help but think that, if Rosa wanted to radically change and mold Barks' characters and world into what Rosa wanted them to be (and reject Barks facts/stories left and right as "non-canon" when he doesn't like them, as if he's the one who decides which Barks stories "count" and which don't), why didn't he just invent his own comic strip with his own characters?
Okay, he hardly gets any criticism over here, fair enough, but I know what I like, and it's not simply because I'm on a bandwagon. My opinion is simply different from yours. There's no right or wrong here. As I said before, I find it interesting to see what you people dislike about Rosa. Some of it I agree with, other things not so much.
I agree with you that continuity was something Barks did not think about. However, I don't care about what Barks thought on this issue. My comment was simply about what I liked about Rosa. I like when things are consistent and make sense. And I appreciate what Rosa tried to do. I don't agree with all of his decisions, but still.
To answer your possibly rhetorical question - I guess Rosa's stories can be seen as his own fan fiction. It's his interpretation of the Duck universe. Speaking of which, I don't know where the line goes between published fan fiction and ... you know, "a real story". I'd say Rosa's work is worthy of being branded "a real story", but I imagine a few people here might disagree.
Yeah, it seems to me that Italy and the Netherlands are the two most 'closed' countries when it comes to Disney comics tastes
Interesting--I didn't know Rosa was somewhat less popular in Italy, as well. I suppose it's essentially just the Scandinavian countries where Rosa is considered such an icon.
the Dutch one is little, relatively young (started in the second half of the 70's) and extremely Barks-oriented
Actually, the Dutch branch of Disney comics is one of the oldest in the world. The production of original Dutch stories started as early as March 1954 ( inducks.org/story.php?c=H+54dd10 ). Endre Lukács, for example, was one of the most prominent Dutch Disney comics artists in those days.
Post by Monkey_Feyerabend on May 27, 2018 17:36:16 GMT
No no, Rosa is very popular in Italy. But he is perceived as totally alien to the Italian Disney comics tradition, i.e. to what everyone in Italy grow up thinking of as "mainstream Disney comics".
Interesting--I didn't know Rosa was somewhat less popular in Italy, asActually, the Dutch branch of Disney comics is one of the oldest in the world. The production of original Dutch stories started as early as March 1954 ( inducks.org/story.php?c=H+54dd10 ). Endre Lukács, for example, was one of the most prominent Dutch Disney comics artists in those days.
Yeah, it seems to me that Italy and the Netherlands are the two most 'closed' countries when it comes to Disney comics tastes
Interesting--I didn't know Rosa was somewhat less popular in Italy, as well. I suppose it's essentially just the Scandinavian countries where Rosa is considered such an icon.
Don't forget Germany. I think all of his stories were published in our weekly Micky Maus Magazine and he is the only Disney author besides Barks who got a (actually not one, but several) complete German anthology of books collecting all his comics.
I also found your different views of Rosa's work quite interesting. I get why traditionalists don't like his style (visually and storytelling-wise) as it differs totally from the usual Disney comic style founded mainly by Barks and continued by the Egmont and Dutch artists. What I never got is the evaluation that he is a technically bad drawing artist (that he also shared himself in interviews). For me his characters transport so much more emotions than every other (living) Duck artist. What he did on the story side is that he opened the Duck comics for totally new (and often more adult) topics like relationships, solitude, death, loss etc. While even the better Egmont and Dutch Duck artists only try to mimic Barks (Jippes as an example who actually is very good at this).
I also tend to dislike Rosa's art, since it's far too stiff and off model, both in general (character) design and staging. The style simply just doesn't fit with Barks or any other Duck comic artists, and I guess you either think of that as a strength or as a major weakness (as I do). His style is especially problematic when it comes to violence/characters getting hurt, etc. Barks and other artists' styles were based on flexible/strechable slapstick characters, who could get "hurt" in cartoonishly funny and unrealistic ways, in the spirit of the animation from which Donald origined. In Rosa's stories, however (especially his later ones, where in just about ever other panel Donald gets violently beaten up by Scrooge for the umpteenth time. And don't get me started on those "hulk-smash" moments from Lo$) his gritty, realistic style in combination with what is supposed to be cartoon violence, come off as disturbing to me.
Also, I don't think it's necessarily a strength to cram as many little details into a panel as possible; knowing what is essential in telling a story and leaving out what is not essential is a an important part of storytelling.
But then again, Rosa has said plenty of times that he doesn't really like his own art, either, and says it's the story that counts, in his opinion.
I feel the same way about both Don Rosa and George Perez. While on one hand I admire the technical ability to fit so much detail on a page or panel. Personally I enjoy more stylized art.
Yeah, it seems to me that Italy and the Netherlands are the two most 'closed' countries when it comes to Disney comics tastes
Interesting--I didn't know Rosa was somewhat less popular in Italy, as well. I suppose it's essentially just the Scandinavian countries where Rosa is considered such an icon.
the Dutch one is little, relatively young (started in the second half of the 70's) and extremely Barks-oriented
Actually, the Dutch branch of Disney comics is one of the oldest in the world. The production of original Dutch stories started as early as March 1954 ( inducks.org/story.php?c=H+54dd10 ). Endre Lukács, for example, was one of the most prominent Dutch Disney comics artists in those days.
Very true. BUT, I think Deb was referring to when the main and prevailing Dutch "style" of Disney artwork and story writing started (which I agree, started in the early 1970s-specifically when Dutch fans (Cees de Groot, Thom Roep, Dan Jippes, Harry Balm, enz.) took over the editorial duties for Oberon. Before that, Lukács, Carol Voges, and the few other Dutch artists had their own, individual styles, which were not unlike the gamut of USA's Western publishing's weaker non-Barks artists. Once Daan Jippes, Ben Verhagen, Dick Matena, Eddy van Schuylenburg, Danny Wanner, Harry Balm, Robert van Der Kroft, Wilbert Plijnaar, started for Oberon in the early to mid 1970s, a new solely Dutch style started to develop, and matured adding even a couple foreign artists, like Freddy Milton, Jan Gulbransson and Volker Reiche. It matured through the years when Mark de Jonge, Jules Coenan, Michel Nadorp, Mau and Bas Heymans, and others came along. Same is true for story writers. A Dutch style was developing throughout the 1970s, 1980s and early 1990s, that still exists today. I can say this, because I started reading the Dutch Disney books from their start, in 1952, and participated in the story writing end from 1984 till now.
Alas, Don Rosa proudly declared "to hell with it!" when asked about "The Magic Hourglass," and said the same about the story with Miss Penny Wise, where he even claimed (with no evidence) that Barks didn't write the story, or that Barks was "having a bad day" when he wrote it the story.
Alas, Don Rosa proudly declared "to hell with it!" when asked about "The Magic Hourglass," and said the same about the story with Miss Penny Wise, where he even claimed (with no evidence) that Barks didn't write the story, or that Barks was "having a bad day" when he wrote it . bb.mcdrake.nl/engdisney/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=113 ) In the same message, he also mentions that
I'm sure I've read in an article in "The Carl Barks Library", that Carl did, indeed, write "The Donald Duck Flour Salesman Story" (from Walt Disney's comics & Stories Nr. 164), and also that he got the inspiration (idea) for that story from his daughter (or a young neighbour girl?) who said that she wished she could have a whole house made out of gingerbread. I seem to remember Carl telling me that, in person, as well. I'd bet that Don was misquoted, and had really said that The story with Miss Penny Wise shouldn't count in Barks' canon, because the idea for that story came from someone else. He was grasping at straws for an excuse to exclude it because it didn't fit with his timeline. But I'm sure he didn't really believe that that entire store was handed to Barks, for him, ready to just draw it.
I looked up Rosa's COA information, which shows that he drew 4 stories for VNU/Geillustreerde Pers. 3 of them totally written by Dutch writers(Arno Buitink, Ruud Straatman and another), the other was written by Don, in collaboration with Mau Heymans. 3 of them (3, 4 & 7 pages) appeared in "Donald Duck Weekblad", and the 10-pager appeared in "Donald Duck Extra". The Extra, monthly is always only for non-Dutch productions. That is the only Dutch production I can remember that was printed in The Extra in it's 33 years of existence (including the first 2 as "Stripgoed". That's how little the Editorship felt about his artwork.
Alas, Don Rosa proudly declared "to hell with it!" when asked about "The Magic Hourglass," and said the same about the story with Miss Penny Wise, where he even claimed (with no evidence) that Barks didn't write the story, or that Barks was "having a bad day" when he wrote it . bb.mcdrake.nl/engdisney/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=113 ) In the same message, he also mentions that
I'm sure I've read in an article in "The Carl Barks Library", that Carl did, indeed, write "The Donald Duck Flour Salesman Story" (from Walt Disney's comics & Stories Nr. 164), and also that he got the inspiration (idea) for that story from his daughter (or a young neighbour girl?) who said that she wished she could have a whole house made out of gingerbread. I seem to remember Carl telling me that, in person, as well. I'd bet that Don was misquoted, and had really said that The story with Miss Penny Wise shouldn't count in Barks' canon, because the idea for that story came from someone else. He was grasping at straws for an excuse to exclude it because it didn't fit with his timeline. But I'm sure he didn't really believe that that entire store was handed to Barks, for him, ready to just draw it.
There's times when I've read a Barks story that just seems too stupid to have been written by Barks -- for a decade or two, while I KNEW that Barks wrote everything he drew, I still thought "The Invisible Intruder" story (about the big bed nonsense) was damned odd -- finally I was relieved to learn that Barks did NOT write that story, nor did he write many others that he drew, most notably all the dumb DAISY DUCK'S DIARY and GRANDMA DUCK'S FARM FRIENDS stuff. This "Miss Penny Wise" story has that same feel to it -- the whole plot of Donald being a bad salesman for McDuck Flour, making a mess of things while merely selling to several residences, and $crooge having some reason to get upset over such a miniscule situation is rather lame -- but when the writer (Barks or not) finally must have a wrap-up, suddenly Donald's last customer holds a note that could ruin $crooge, therefore Donald's messing up her kitchen is suddenly makes a difference, even to the reader. If Barks did write that, I say he was having a bad day, and I still say it tastes like spinach and I say to hell with it, or however that saying goes.
So at the very least he heavily implies that he thinks of the story as being written by someone other than Barks, simply because it doesn't fit with Rosa's whole "timeline" business. He once did the same thing with "September Scrimmage", where Scrooge mentions his time at Webfoot Tech.
Also, it was clear from his messages that Rosa simply didn't know who Miss Penny Wise was (initially, when asked about it, he thought it was an alternative name for Miss Quackfaster). I'm pretty sure that, had he known about the character, he would have incorporated her in the series (for better or worse). He just seemed to be coming up with these far-fetched excuses instead of just admitting it was a simple oversight on his part.
Last Edit: May 28, 2018 11:21:44 GMT by Scroogerello
Interesting--I didn't know Rosa was somewhat less popular in Italy, as well. I suppose it's essentially just the Scandinavian countries where Rosa is considered such an icon. Actually, the Dutch branch of Disney comics is one of the oldest in the world. The production of original Dutch stories started as early as March 1954 ( inducks.org/story.php?c=H+54dd10 ). Endre Lukács, for example, was one of the most prominent Dutch Disney comics artists in those days.
Very true. BUT, I think Deb was referring to when the main and prevailing Dutch "style" of Disney artwork and story writing started (which I agree, started in the early 1970s-specifically when Dutch fans (Cees de Groot, Thom Roep, Dan Jippes, Harry Balm, enz.) took over the editorial duties for Oberon. Before that, Lukács, Carol Voges, and the few other Dutch artists had their own, individual styles, which were not unlike the gamut of USA's Western publishing's weaker non-Barks artists. Once Daan Jippes, Ben Verhagen, Dick Matena, Eddy van Schuylenburg, Danny Wanner, Harry Balm, Robert van Der Kroft, Wilbert Plijnaar, started for Oberon in the early to mid 1970s, a new solely Dutch style started to develop, and matured adding even a couple foreign artists, like Freddy Milton, Jan Gulbransson and Volker Reiche. It matured through the years when Mark de Jonge, Jules Coenan, Michel Nadorp, Mau and Bas Heymans, and others came along. Same is true for story writers. A Dutch style was developing throughout the 1970s, 1980s and early 1990s, that still exists today. I can say this, because I started reading the Dutch Disney books from their start, in 1952, and participated in the story writing end from 1984 till now.
Yes, I was referring to the "Barksian school" which - in my mind - was started by the Milton-Jippes collaboration, with Verhagen often as their inker. You name here other Dutch people belonging to the same generation of the 70's, that I do not know, probably because their work did not much crossed the borders I guess (not in Italy and France in any case). But you get the point.