City Names in Translation

[Minotaur]

I'm not even sure if the name was actually ever used: I am not an expert of foreign languages, but at first glance at its Wikipedia page tells me that "Gothic is an extinct East Germanic language", "attested 3rd–10th century; related dialects survived until 18th century in Crimea". In fact, it's not there among Inducks' list of languages. I got the name from the page of the Gothic Wikipedia article about the city, but it's possible they made it up the name for that page.

That's my guess when I saw Esperanto on the list! I'm impressed by how much effect that you have put into it.

Do you know if the name originated in the translation of an Italian story?

It can be, as the translation of Ludwig von Drake is from Italian.
皮克教授，教授 = professor，皮克 = Pico

（Just realised the following paragraph is not relevant. Never mind)

Honestly I can't say. Like in Italy, the translation name has changed over the years. "Goldie" used to be phonetically translated as "戈尔迪“, but nowadays the editors called her "阿金“, which sounds more like a literal translation. The bad news is I don't have the earliest issues, and the record is far from intact.

[drakeborough]

Oct 18, 2019 13:20:59 GMT Minotaur said:

Oct 18, 2019 12:31:35 GMT drakeborough said:

I'm not even sure if the name was actually ever used: I am not an expert of foreign languages, but at first glance at its Wikipedia page tells me that "Gothic is an extinct East Germanic language", "attested 3rd–10th century; related dialects survived until 18th century in Crimea". In fact, it's not there among Inducks' list of languages. I got the name from the page of the Gothic Wikipedia article about the city, but it's possible they made it up the name for that page.

That's my guess when I saw Esperanto on the list!

I also assumed that the Esperanto name for Duckburg, "Anasurbo", was made up for the Esperanto Wiki: after all, the only story in Esperanto is an Italian-produced Gyro 1-pager from 1993 titled "Archimede kai la congreso de inventistoj" (also published in Germany in 2018), but no city name is mentioned there.

Incidentally, Gyro keeps his Italian first name Archimede in the story, while no surname is used. The Esperanto Wiki, on the other hand, uses his English full name:

eo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyro_Gearloose

There are also six Italian stories that were translated into Latin, but I haven't checked them yet so I can't say how they translated Paperopoli and Topolinia, assuming these stories used the names in the first place. The main characters were called Donaldus Anas, Michaël Musculus and Scrúgulus, and these names are also used by the Latin Wikipedia (though in Scrooge's case I don't know how his surname is given in the story):

la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donaldus_Anas

la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Musculus

la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrugulus_Anas

"Michael Musculus" is clearly an hybrid between the English and Italian name: "mus" means "mouse", while "musculus" means "little mouse", just like "Topolino" which is Mickey's Italian name ("topo" is Italian for "mouse"). A more literal Latin translation of the English name would be "Michael Mus", and in fact the Latin Wikipedia also reports this as an alternative name. The page was named Michael Mus until 11 March 2016, when an user moved it to the current title because the name actually appeared in official stories.

Oct 18, 2019 13:20:59 GMT Minotaur said:

I'm impressed by how much effect that you have put into it.

Thank you. I've had the list in my notes for more than two years without even opening it, so it was time to take it up again, add a few touches, and publish it even though it wasn't perfect. Because of the presence of a topic with this title, I avoided creating a new one.

Oct 18, 2019 13:20:59 GMT Minotaur said:

Oct 18, 2019 12:31:35 GMT drakeborough said:

Do you know if the name originated in the translation of an Italian story?

It can be, as the translation of Ludwig von Drake is from Italian.
皮克教授，教授 = professor，皮克 = Pico

Honestly I can't say. Like in Italy, the translation name has changed over the years. "Goldie" used to be phonetically translated as "戈尔迪“, but nowadays the editors called her "阿金“, which sounds more like a literal translation. The bad news is I don't have the earliest issues, and the record is far from intact.

I get it. After all, translated names depend on which country a story is translated from, if said character hadn't appeared before. It's also common for minor characters to have more than one name in foreign translations.

By the way, I don't know much about Disney comics in China, but a quick Inducks search for the earliest appearances of most main characters shows me that there are little to no appearances at all before the 1980s, and even after that their appearances are fairly sparse. Of course, I don't know how complete Inducks is or is not about Chinese comics, since I don't know many Inducks users from China. By the way, I assume that 鸭堡 (Yābǎo) and 鼠城 (Shŭchéng) are recurring names rather than one-shot names, am I correct?

[RobbK1]

Oct 18, 2019 8:28:22 GMT drakeborough said:

Oct 17, 2019 22:13:27 GMT juicymcduck said:

At Dutch Disney Comics We have, over the many years, used mainly (if not exclusively), Gansdorp, for Barks' Goosetown, rather than "Ganzenstad", which you have posted above.  I have to say that I can't remember ever having seen "Ganzenstad" used even once, compared to hundreds of times Gansdorp has used.

[drakeborough]

Oct 18, 2019 15:20:08 GMT RobbK1 said:

At Dutch Disney Comics We have, over the many years, used mainly (if not exclusively) Gansdorp for Barks' Goosetown, rather than "Ganzenstad", which you posted above.  I have to say that I can't remember ever having seen "Ganzenstad" used even once, compared to hundreds of times Gansdorp was used.

Thanks for the info, maybe the author of that barksian website should be informed of this.

As I guessed, collecting international names of Goosetown before finishing up with Duckburg and Mouseton may complicate things, since each name has a potential controversy.

[Minotaur]

Oct 18, 2019 14:44:24 GMT drakeborough said:

By the way, I don't know much about Disney comics in China, but a quick Inducks search for the earliest appearances of most main characters shows me that there are little to no appearances at all before the 1980s, and even after that their appearances are fairly sparse. Of course, I don't know how complete Inducks is or is not about Chinese comics, since I don't know many Inducks users from China. By the way, I assume that 鸭堡 (Yābǎo) and 鼠城 (Shŭchéng) are recurring names rather than one-shot names, am I correct?

Yes, the current run began from 1993 and I am pretty sure that was the first time a publisher got a Disney license in PRC (but then you said before 1980s... I don't know). The comics was firstly published on a monthly issue called 米老鼠 （Mickey Mouse), and a few years later the second title was released (米老鼠特刊，Mickey Mouse Special). At some point in time, they started to print pocket book every month. 

I can't say for sure, but I don't think these two rows per page comics had been introduced to China before the pocket book. That is the reason why some characters were absent before 2006. But others, i.e., Mickey, Donald, Scrooge, HDL, has already appeared on the monthly issue. It's a shame that I.N.D.U.C.K.S. only has incomplete record.

And yes, 鸭堡 (Yābǎo) and 鼠城 (Shŭchéng) are recurring names as I know.

[Minotaur]

Oct 18, 2019 14:44:24 GMT drakeborough said:

By the way, I don't know much about Disney comics in China, but a quick Inducks search for the earliest appearances of most main characters shows me that there are little to no appearances at all before the 1980s, and even after that their appearances are fairly sparse. Of course, I don't know how complete Inducks is or is not about Chinese comics, since I don't know many Inducks users from China. By the way, I assume that 鸭堡 (Yābǎo) and 鼠城 (Shŭchéng) are recurring names rather than one-shot names, am I correct?

Yes, the current run began from 1993 and I am pretty sure that was the first time a publisher got a Disney license in PRC (but then you said before 1980s... I don't know). The comics was firstly published on a monthly issue called 米老鼠 （Mickey Mouse), and a few years later the second title was released (米老鼠特刊，Mickey Mouse Special). Then at some point in time, they started to print pocket book every month. 

I can't say for sure, but I don't think those two rows per page comics had been introduced to China before the pocket book. That is the reason why some characters were absent before 2006. But others, i.e., Mickey, Donald, Scrooge, HDL, has already appeared on the monthly issue. It's a shame that I.N.D.U.C.K.S. only has incomplete record.

And yes, 鸭堡 (Yābǎo) and 鼠城 (Shŭchéng) are recurring names as I know.

[drakeborough]

Here is Inducks' list of Chines comics:

inducks.org/country.php?c=cn

Even if it's incomplete, we can see a few 1980s publications, even though most of them are listed as illegal.

Oct 20, 2019 14:45:01 GMT Minotaur said:

And yes, 鸭堡 (Yābǎo) and 鼠城 (Shŭchéng) are recurring names as I know.

That's what I wanted to know. Thanks again.

[drakeborough]

In Swedish comics, the duck cast and the mouse cast both live in Duckburg, which is called "Ankeborg". However, the following page...

seriewikin.serieframjandet.se/index.php/Mouseton

... claims that, occasionally, Swedish translations of Italian stories have translated "Topolinia" as either "Musköping" or "Musseberg". For the former, there is a "citation needed", while for the latter it is said that the name appears in the translation of Scarpa's Topolino e l'uomo di Altacraz, a 1963 story whose only Swedish translation (called "Musse och mannen från Sing-Song") appeared in Kalle Ankas Pocket #11 (1972).

Can someone verify if the name "Musseberg" actually appears in this story? Was the name "Musköping" actually used, and if so, in which story? Did any of these names appear more than once? Were there other names?

[fredj]

Nov 15, 2019 23:11:44 GMT drakeborough said:

In Swedish comics, the duck cast and the mouse cast both live in Duckburg, which is called "Ankeborg". However, the following page...

seriewikin.serieframjandet.se/index.php/Mouseton

... claims that, occasionally, Swedish translations of Italian stories have translated "Topolinia" as either "Musköping" or "Musseberg". For the former, there is a "citation needed", while for the latter it is said that the name appears in the translation of Scarpa's Topolino e l'uomo di Altacraz, a 1963 story whose only Swedish translation (called "Musse och mannen från Sing-Song") appeared in Kalle Ankas Pocket #11 (1972).

Can someone verify if the name "Musseberg" actually appears in this story? Was the name "Musköping" actually used, and if so, in which story? Did any of these names appear more than once? Were there other names?

I’ve just read Pocket #11 and yes, in L’uomo di Altacraz Mickey is said to live in Musseberg, and this location is used several times in the story (Musseberg Station, The Musseberg Post). Oddly enough he lives in Ankeborg/Duckburg in the other stories (Il ferragosto birmano, I pigmei bitorzoluti, Il dipinto ridipinto, and in the frame story). Another fun oddity is that the Blot is called Sven Svindel in Il dipinto ridipinto, which I’ve never seen before.

[drakeborough]

Nov 29, 2019 15:11:59 GMT fredj said:

I’ve just read Pocket #11 and yes, in L’uomo di Altacraz Mickey is said to live in Musseberg, and this location is used several times in the story (Musseberg Station, The Musseberg Post). Oddly enough he lives in Ankeborg/Duckburg in the other stories (Il ferragosto birmano, I pigmei bitorzoluti, Il dipinto ridipinto, and in the frame story). Another fun oddity is that the Blot is called Sven Svindel in Il dipinto ridipinto, which I’ve never seen before.

Thanks, it's good to have official confirmation that Musseberg was indeed used in the Swedish translation of that story. Since you said it is used several times in the story, I guess that the translator was not familiar with the Swedish convention of having the duck and mouse cast both live in the same city, "Ankeborg". Had the name only appeared once in the story, I could have thought that the translator was aware of that convention and simply didn't realize "Topolinia" was meant to be a separate city rather than Mickey's hometown: however, your message confirms this is not the case.

Do you have some images from the story? And do you know anything about "Musköping"?

Sven Svindel is not mentioned by Inducks, which only lists Spökplumpen as the Blot's Swedish name. Does he wear a cloak and hood in the story? If he doesn't, then maybe the translator was only aware of stories in which he appears masked and thus thought his unmasked version was a separate character: it wouldn't be the first time this happens, as something similar also happened in France. Of course, many countries have had multiple names for a foreign character before settling on the definitive version.

[fredj]

Nov 29, 2019 23:23:34 GMT drakeborough said:

Nov 29, 2019 15:11:59 GMT fredj said:

I’ve just read Pocket #11 and yes, in L’uomo di Altacraz Mickey is said to live in Musseberg, and this location is used several times in the story (Musseberg Station, The Musseberg Post). Oddly enough he lives in Ankeborg/Duckburg in the other stories (Il ferragosto birmano, I pigmei bitorzoluti, Il dipinto ridipinto, and in the frame story). Another fun oddity is that the Blot is called Sven Svindel in Il dipinto ridipinto, which I’ve never seen before.

Thanks, it's good to have official confirmation that Musseberg was indeed used in the Swedish translation of that story. Since you said it is used several times in the story, I guess that the translator was not familiar with the Swedish convention of having the duck and mouse cast both live in the same city, "Ankeborg". Had the name only appeared once in the story, I could have thought that the translator was aware of that convention and simply didn't realize "Topolinia" was meant to be a separate city rather than Mickey's hometown: however, your message confirms this is not the case.

Do you have some images from the story? And do you know anything about "Musköping"?

Sven Svindel is not mentioned by Inducks, which only lists Spökplumpen as the Blot's Swedish name. Does he wear a cloak and hood in the story? If he doesn't, then maybe the translator was only aware of stories in which he appears masked and thus thought his unmasked version was a separate character: it wouldn't be the first time this happens, as something similar also happened in France. Of course, many countries have had multiple names for a foreign character before settling on the definitive version.

Ingrid Emond is the translator from #10. Pockets #2-9 have no credited translator, so unless she didn’t do uncredited work on them L'uomo di Altacraz in #11 would be her first Mickey story, as he doesn’t appear in #10. Mickey’s home seem to be somewhat vague in these relatively early Italian stories, as he is clearly depicted living i the same city as the ducks in a story in #1. I wonder what the Italian originals said, perhaps she just did literal translations?

I can’t recall ever seeing Musköping.

The Blot is without his cloak, but surely he would had been called Macchia Nera in the original? Although the character was still relatively new in Sweden, having only appeared in a handful of stories. Perhaps calling him Spökplumpen would had been irrelevant and/or confusing to the readers.

From L'uomo di Altacraz



From the frame story: 

”We have to go home by boat - We’re lucky we found one going to Duckburg”

From I pigmei bitorzoluti

”The residents of Duckburg are sleeping. But in Mickey’s house the lights are on.”

[drakeborough]

Nov 30, 2019 9:03:22 GMT fredj said:

Ingrid Emond is the translator from #10. Pockets #2-9 have no credited translator, so unless she didn’t do uncredited work on them L'uomo di Altacraz in #11 would be her first Mickey story, as he doesn’t appear in #10. Mickey’s home seem to be somewhat vague in these relatively early Italian stories, as he is clearly depicted living i the same city as the ducks in a story in #1. I wonder what the Italian originals said, perhaps she just did literal translations?

The story in #1 that you mentioned is Paperino e la vernice invisibile, a 1961 comic by Cimino/Capitanio, and you are right that in this story Mickey and Pluto live in the same city as the ducks (Mickey doesn't actually appear, but he is mentioned), which is explicitly identified as "Paperopoli" (Duckburg). The concept of the ducks and mice living in separate cities wasn't set in stone in Italy until the early 1960s, and this explains examples like the one above. Right now I can't check the original version of the other stories of that issue, but I guess most if not all of them place Mickey in "Topolinia" rather than "Paperopoli". At least, this happens for sure in Topolino e i pigmei bitorzoluti by Giorgio Bordini (1963), since we can read the first page on Inducks:

The caption box in the first panel says "È una serata tranquilla a Topolinia! Tutto dorme, solo nella casa di Topolino brilla una luce...".
It means "It is a quiet evening in Mouseton! Everything sleeps, only in the house of Mickey Mouse a light shines...".

So, I guess "Topolino e l'uomo di Altacraz" was translated by a different person than the rest of the issue, otherwise I don't see why a single translator would translate "Topolinia" as "Musseberg" in one story and as "Ankeborg" in all the other stories. Unfortunately, we can't verify that since you said the translator, or translators, of issue #11 is/are uncredited.

Do you know which is the first Swedish issue in which Mickey is explicitly said to live in Duckburg, regardless of whether it's in an original story or in a translation of a foreign story? The earliest example I know is the translation of the aforementioned "Paperino e la vernice invisibile" in Kalle Ankas Pocket # 1 (June 1968), which I don't have but in which I guess "Paperopoli" was translated as "Ankeborg". Are there earlier examples?

Nov 30, 2019 9:03:22 GMT fredj said:

I can’t recall ever seeing Musköping.

It seems it would be hard to find the origin of that, assuming it's a real name and not just an online hoax. Please let us know if you find out something about this.

Nov 30, 2019 9:03:22 GMT fredj said:

The Blot is without his cloak, but surely he would had been called Macchia Nera in the original? Although the character was still relatively new in Sweden, having only appeared in a handful of stories. Perhaps calling him Spökplumpen would had been irrelevant and/or confusing to the readers.

I haven't checked, but I know he is always called Macchia Nera in Italy, even when he is unmasked. Maybe it's like you said and the translator thought it would have been confusing to the readers, or maybe it was a different translator who was inexperienced and didn't know or remember who "Macchia Nera" was and what was his Swedish name. Inducks says the Blot made his first appearance in a Swedish issue in 1965, while the story in question was his 23rd appearance in Sweden counting everything, one-pagers included.

[fredj]

Nov 30, 2019 17:51:57 GMT drakeborough said:

So, I guess "Topolino e l'uomo di Altacraz" was translated by a different person than the rest of the issue, otherwise I don't see why a single translator would translate "Topolinia" as "Musseberg" in one story and as "Ankeborg" in all the other stories. Unfortunately, we can't verify that since you said the translator, or translators, of issue #11 is/are uncredited.

Pockets #2-9 are uncredited, Ingrid Emond translated #11 - her second issue and first with Mickey in a starring role. It's really odd and seems lazy, which is a shame as she was a very well regarded translator of continental comics.

Do you know which is the first Swedish issue in which Mickey is explicitly said to live in Duckburg, regardless of whether it's in an original story or in a translation of a foreign story? The earliest example I know is the translation of the aforementioned "Paperino e la vernice invisibile" in Kalle Ankas Pocket # 1 (June 1968), which I don't have but in which I guess "Paperopoli" was translated as "Ankeborg". Are there earlier examples?

I don't know, but I'll keep my eyes open.

[pollux]

I read all Disney comics in the Natzy editions and in them, Mouseton doesn't exist, all characters live in Duckburg (Entenhausen). Yet, I prefer the idea of two seperate cities which are located on the West and East Coast of a fantasy counterpart of North America.

[drakeborough]

Nov 30, 2019 19:33:59 GMT fredj said:

Pockets #2-9 are uncredited, Ingrid Emond translated #11 - her second issue and first with Mickey in a starring role. It's really odd and seems lazy, which is a shame as she was a very well regarded translator of continental comics.

Ah, ok. I misunderstood your line "Ingrid Emond is the translator from #10", but re-reading your message more carefully, it makes sense that you meant that she started with issue #10. Since these comics are tied together by a frame story, I guess she translated them in order. Unless the name "Topolinia" is present right in the first pages of the frame story (I haven't checked), she must have first met the name in "Topolino e l'uomo di Altacraz", but I'm not sure what this proves, as she may have read the whole issue in Italian before starting the translation.

Maybe she had already translated the Altacraz story before she realized (or was told by the editor) that Swedish comics have the duck and mouse cast live in the same city, so she adopted that convention in her subsequent translations without remembering, or bothering, to correct the first story. Maybe she used "Musseberg" in all the stories of that issue and the editors went back and tried to change it to "Ankeborg" everywhere, but didn't pay attention to the Altacraz story and so didn't change that one. At any rate, like you said it is really odd.

Nov 30, 2019 19:33:59 GMT fredj said:

Do you know which is the first Swedish issue in which Mickey is explicitly said to live in Duckburg, regardless of whether it's in an original story or in a translation of a foreign story? The earliest example I know is the translation of the aforementioned "Paperino e la vernice invisibile" in Kalle Ankas Pocket # 1 (June 1968), which I don't have but in which I guess "Paperopoli" was translated as "Ankeborg". Are there earlier examples?

I don't know, but I'll keep my eyes open.

Thanks.