Post by Baar Baar Jinx on Sept 3, 2019 18:58:45 GMT
Oh, and I keep forgetting about that one (that I know of) Italian story that shows Gideon and Scrooge of roughly the same age growing up together in Scotland. But if I'm not mistaken, Grandma is right there with them, so I guess it's following a different tree from Barks/Rosa altogether.
Oh, and I keep forgetting about that one (that I know of) Italian story that shows Gideon and Scrooge of roughly the same age growing up together in Scotland. But if I'm not mistaken, Grandma is right there with them, so I guess it's following a different tree from Barks/Rosa altogether.
Your recollection is correct; this is the one story that has ever made me waver in sticking with the American version of how Elvira is related to Scrooge, because it absolutely doesn't work if Elvira isn't Gideon and Scrooge's sister, and boy, does it ever milk the sibling relationship for all it's worth in sweetness, too.
Great finds, and ones I don't think I've seen mentioned anywhere else in discussions on Donald and Daisy's relationship. I think this is a unique take on Taliaferro's part, at least among American writers. Barks' Donald and Daisy clearly don't behave as if they're engaged, for example.
Given the fact that Taliaferro is responsible for introducing many of the characters, conventions and scenarios that have become standard and widely accepted in the Duck universe, I believes he deserves a lot of respect when it comes to deciding my personal headcanon (except where his interpretation clashes with the bulk of the rest of the Duck comics, such as parts of Scrooge's backstory). As such, I appreciate the hard work you've put into this thread, LP; you've done yeoman service. I look forward to seeing your updated tree; the one you posted elsewhere on this forum conforms much more closely to the one in my personal headcanon than Rosa's (flawed in significant ways, in my revised opinion) one. I hope you will also find a way to include Cornelia Coot, who was discussed on this forum since you posted the last version of your tree.
The way I see it is that the strips that imply that Donald and Daisy are engaged simply take place after the Barks-stuff (and most of the "present day" stories for that matter). Those strips were even published in 1966, which is after most of Barks' output anyways.
On another note, thank you for the kind words! My tree is consistent with Rosa's, except for when it comes to Eider Duck's sons. I know you dislike the idea of Grandma Duck and Cornelius Coot being related. I don't like it either, but it's still part of what I consider my own head-canon. I read the Cornelia-thread. Unfortunately, she isn't a part of my head-canon, and thus not my tree. However, if I had to put her in, I guess she would fit as Fanny and Cuthbert Coot's sister. If she really is Cornelius Coot's great-granddaughter that is. From what I understand, any family connection isn't mentioned in the story itself, so she might as well be more distantly related. Maybe she's the great-granddaughter of Johannes Coot, Cornelius' brother, instead? I don't know, maybe I misunderstood something.
Anyways, the tree is more or less completed. I'm just gonna write explanations to back up all of the odd choices I've made, and I'll post that stuff together with the tree. I just got to find the time. Just hang on a few days!
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On the topic of Scrooge being the last of the clan McDuck... That concept was already thrown out the window when Matilda was shown to still be alive. So I don't find it to be a super-problem if Gideon is around too. I haven't read too many Gideon-stories, but him being at boarding school during L&To$ works fine enough for me.
Post by Baar Baar Jinx on Sept 4, 2019 16:58:25 GMT
I differ from Rosa's published tree in where he places Fethry and Whitewater (neither are Donald's first cousins, and they're not siblings). He once showed Ludwig and Matilda as married on an unofficial tree that he made for a fan, and I disagree with that as well (Ludwig is, in my headcanon, the son of a maternal aunt of Elvira's. And he's a bachelor). I include Rumpus, and am still on the fence about Gideon (I was initially willing to accept him as a son of Pothole's, but that seems against the spirit of the character; maybe as a half-brother of Scrooge as discussed above?). True, I don't really like the Ducks being directly descended from the founder of Duckburg, but it's too established now for it not be part of my headcanon.
As for "the Last of the Clan McDuck", that appears to apply only to male heirs. Scrooge was referred to as such even when it was well-known that Hortense and Matilda were alive. I'm not saying it's appropriate, it's just the way it is. Rosa was probably simply using the conventions of the patriarchal society that existed at the time his stories were set.
Great finds, and ones I don't think I've seen mentioned anywhere else in discussions on Donald and Daisy's relationship. I think this is a unique take on Taliaferro's part, at least among American writers. Barks' Donald and Daisy clearly don't behave as if they're engaged, for example.
Given the fact that Taliaferro is responsible for introducing many of the characters, conventions and scenarios that have become standard and widely accepted in the Duck universe, I believes he deserves a lot of respect when it comes to deciding my personal headcanon (except where his interpretation clashes with the bulk of the rest of the Duck comics, such as parts of Scrooge's backstory). As such, I appreciate the hard work you've put into this thread, LP; you've done yeoman service. I look forward to seeing your updated tree; the one you posted elsewhere on this forum conforms much more closely to the one in my personal headcanon than Rosa's (flawed in significant ways, in my revised opinion) one. I hope you will also find a way to include Cornelia Coot, who was discussed on this forum since you posted the last version of your tree.
The way I see it is that the strips that imply that Donald and Daisy are engaged simply take place after the Barks-stuff (and most of the "present day" stories for that matter). Those strips were even published in 1966, which is after most of Barks' output anyways.
On another note, thank you for the kind words! My tree is consistent with Rosa's, except for when it comes to Eider Duck's sons. I know you dislike the idea of Grandma Duck and Cornelius Coot being related. I don't like it either, but it's still part of what I consider my own head-canon. I read the Cornelia-thread. Unfortunately, she isn't a part of my head-canon, and thus not my tree. However, if I had to put her in, I guess she would fit as Fanny and Cuthbert Coot's sister. If she really is Cornelius Coot's great-granddaughter that is. From what I understand, any family connection isn't mentioned in the story itself, so she might as well be more distantly related. Maybe she's the great-granddaughter of Johannes Coot, Cornelius' brother, instead? I don't know, maybe I misunderstood something.
Anyways, the tree is more or less completed. I'm just gonna write explanations to back up all of the odd choices I've made, and I'll post that stuff together with the tree. I just got to find the time. Just hang on a few days!
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On the topic of Scrooge being the last of the clan McDuck... That concept was already thrown out the window when Matilda was shown to still be alive. So I don't find it to be a super-problem if Gideon is around too. I haven't read too many Gideon-stories, but him being at boarding school during L&To$ works fine enough for me.
I mean I think the ghost of Quackly McDuck already told Scrooge that he, his father, and uncles were the last McDucks in Rosa's fittingly titled, The Last of the Clan McDuck. Matilda and Hortense were definitely alive during that story. It seems they just don't count due to being female. Also, I believe you, among others, have proposed that Matilda is married in the present-day. If this were true, her last name could very well no longer be "McDuck", even though she is a McDuck by birth.
No matter what I say or do, know that Jesus loves you.
I mean I think the ghost of Quackly McDuck already told Scrooge that he, his father, and uncles were the last McDucks in Rosa's fittingly titled, The Last of the Clan McDuck. Matilda and Hortense were definitely alive during that story. It seems they just don't count due to being female. Also, I believe you, among others, have proposed that Matilda is married in the present-day. If this were true, her last name could very well no longer be "McDuck", even though she is a McDuck by birth.
True, and in a non-patriarchal lineage, Donald, HD&L should also be considered of the Clan McDuck, which is never the case (occasionally Scrooge mentions how HD&L ... but never Donald ... have McDuck blood in them, but that's not the same thing).
Considering patriarchal lineage, I feel the only way Gideon works with "last of the Clan McDuck" is if he's adopted. He's named McDuck, so we have to assume he's Fergus' son, and as far as I know even if he were a bastard child, the fact he's Fergus' blood AND got the McDuck name would immediately make HIM the last of the Clan, not Scrooge. The only other alternative would be him being born AFTER that chapter, meaning at one point the title "last of the Clan McDuck" technically moves from Scrooge to Gideon.
Considering patriarchal lineage, I feel the only way Gideon works with "last of the Clan McDuck" is if he's adopted. He's named McDuck, so we have to assume he's Fergus' son, and as far as I know even if he were a bastard child, the fact he's Fergus' blood AND got the McDuck name would immediately make HIM the last of the Clan, not Scrooge. The only other alternative would be him being born AFTER that chapter, meaning at one point the title "last of the Clan McDuck" technically moves from Scrooge to Gideon.
I think another perhaps harder to swallow possibility is that rumors have swirled that Gideon is illegitimate and that Downy was the one who cheated. As to whether or not this is true is sort of irrelevant, I think. What's important is that there is a reason for some to view Gideon as not being a true McDuck. Maybe he, sort of like Scrooge in A Letter From Home, also had a moment in his life when, post-Fergus's death, he realized that Fergus really did love him despite Downy's affair. Maybe Gideon spent his whole life thinking that he was sent to boarding school because his family did not accept him, only to learn that Fergus sent him there so that he could make the most of himself and reach his fullest potential. Very fanfictiony, admittedly.
I must confess that I haven't read many Gideon McDuck stories, but is it also possible to spin him as being older than Scrooge, allowing Scrooge to still be the "last" but not getting into any sort of adoptions or adultery hullabaloo? I don't know for sure, but I guess it might as well be considered while we're laying all options on the table anyway.
Finally, he could be a stepchild, perhaps. Maybe Fergus or Downy had a marriage before their marriage to each other and Gideon is from that marriage. Heck, Downy may not be Scrooge's real mother for all we know. His true mother may have died during childbirth, and Fergus married Downy very shortly after as he wanted someone to raise his son (sons if you count Scrooge's twin). Gideon be the child of Downy and her pre-Fergus husband. If we want to get really crazy, we can throw Rumpus's mother and the Taliaferro strip about Scrooge's father marrying a rich widow. Maybe Downy was the rich widow. Maybe Fergus married Rumpus' mother in-between his first wife and Downy, falling for her sister, Downy. Fergus's first wife (mother of Scrooge and his twin) died in childbirth, his second wife (mother of Rumpus) divorced him, and his third wife (mother of Matilda and Hortense) died after years of marriage. This is all ridiculously crazy, but why not put it out there?
Also, I'd like to point out that all of this is just pure fan speculation. I'm not trying to insinuate that a single author, be it Barks, Rosa, Martina, Taliaferro, Scarpa, or Van Horn, intended this at all. I'm just trying to make options has to how we can fit Gideon into the McDuck family without violating too much of "canon", not that there really is any sort of official or strict canon.
No matter what I say or do, know that Jesus loves you.
See, I considered him being Downy's son out of marriage, but then he wouldn't be named McDuck, right? And in the same way, if he was Fergus' son out of marriage, he'd also not be named McDuck, like how Rumpus isn't. The only ways I see for him to have Fergus' name but not be counted as "Last of the Clan McDuck" is he's either not a blood relative, thus adopted, or young enough that when the comics said Scrooge was the last one they were right, and he was born after that event.
This going with the simplest answer, I mean. Otherwise we could have an entire yarn here about how he's Fergus son from out of wedlock, so he was named Gideon AnotherSurname, but then eventually at some point met either Fergus or Scrooge, and after some drama, accepted the name McDuck as part of his lineage or something
I differ from Rosa's published tree in where he places Fethry and Whitewater (neither are Donald's first cousins, and they're not siblings). He once showed Ludwig and Matilda as married on an unofficial tree that he made for a fan, and I disagree with that as well (Ludwig is, in my headcanon, the son of a maternal aunt of Elvira's. And he's a bachelor). I include Rumpus, and am still on the fence about Gideon (I was initially willing to accept him as a son of Pothole's, but that seems against the spirit of the character; maybe as a half-brother of Scrooge as discussed above?). True, I don't really like the Ducks being directly descended from the founder of Duckburg, but it's too established now for it not be part of my headcanon.
I think you're going to like my tree. I would also prefer to have Gideon as Pothole's son. But as you said, that would probably take something away from his character. And that Taliaferro-strip mentions that Scrooge had a brother, so that might as well be Gideon.
I just realized: The strip mentions that Scrooge gave his brother chicken pox when he was 9 years old. What if the illness killed him? That would explain why this brother doesn't show up in L&To$, which starts with Scrooge being 10! And it would also explain why it begins with Fergus and son at the McDuck cemetery. They're visiting Scrooge's brother's grave! Ooohoho, that was a dark theory. I like it, but I think I'll keep Gideon anyway.
Post by Baar Baar Jinx on Sept 5, 2019 15:42:27 GMT
Gah, I really hate the idea of Downy having been unfaithful. Fergus is one thing, but Downy? I realize it's an irrational feeling, and in fact, had Gideon been an illegitimate child of Downy's while she was married to Fergus (the most likely scenario in which it could have happened), he could very well have carried the McDuck name. It's possible Fergus may not have found out until much later (if ever). So the theory is possible. If it was later discovered that he was in fact not Fergus' son, would he lose claim to being "the Last of the Clan McDuck"? I don't know.
Still, I would like to include Gideon into my mainly Barks/Rosa-based headcanon, and from what I've read about the character, his identity as a McDuck is a critical part of his existence. So an illegitimate child of Downy's, or a stepson or adopted son of Fergus wouldn't quite cut it. So here's my current thinking: Downy was Fergus' first wife, and they begat Scrooge, Matilda and Hortense. At some point during his marriage to Downy, Fergus had an affair with her sister, and Rumpus' birth was the result. Rumpus' mother was married to Mr. McFowl at the time, so no one suspected Rumpus was anything other than a McFowl (not Mr. McFowl, not Downy, perhaps not even Fergus if Rumpus' mother didn't reveal it to him). Rumpus' mother put the revelation in a letter to her other sister Vera, which Rumpus found many decades later and confronted Scrooge with in "Travails" (Scrooge obviously somehow found out about it prior to "Travails" and was expecting that Rumpus might someday discover the truth as well). Now I know what you're going to say: Van Horn was quite clear that Fergus was *married* to Rumpus' mother, so we can't go against something officially established. You have a very valid point, and if so, you can consider it Fergus' second marriage (not sure where you would place it chronologically with regard to his relationship with Downy, but we've discussed that at length elsewhere). But personally, Scrooge's desperation at not having Rumpus' true parentage revealed, and the idea that Rumpus being Fergus' son is such a shock, which would not make sense if Fergus and his mother had indeed been married, allows me to give myself permission to consider the published version of "Travails" as sanitized to be family-friendly. Maybe someday I'll rewrite the dialog balloons to reflect what I think they should really say.
After Downy dies, Fergus remarries. Maybe he marries the "rich widow" that Taliaferro has Scrooge talk about (although that comment was made in explaining the wealth Scrooge inherited, which wouldn't work here, since Scrooge is a self-made man in Barks/Rosa canon). As a result of this second (in my headcanon) marriage, he has at least one other child, a son (Gideon). This marriage and Gideon's birth would have to happen after Chapter VIII of Life of Scrooge (when Scrooge learns Downy is dead). Fergus' new marriage probably happened soon after. So maybe Gideon was born in 1901 or so? So when Scrooge returns to Scotland in Chapter IX and meets his father and his sisters again, Fergus has already remarried and has an infant son (Gideon). Why aren't they there to greet Scrooge? There are several possible reasons. Maybe Fergus' new wife is estranged from the children from his previous marriage, including Scrooge whom she has probably never met. Maybe Hortense and Matilda (and Scrooge) don't want anything to do with Fergus' new family. Maybe Gideon's mother is already separated from Fergus. These scenarios would work well if there is any hint in the comics that Gideon didn't have a good relationship with Fergus, but of course the story where Scrooge and Gideon grew up together would be incompatible with it (but again, that story says that Elvira is their sibling, so I feel no hesitation in ignoring it; there's no way to reconcile it in my mind).
With regard to the idea that Scrooge's brother died of chickenpox: Grandma/Matilda seems far too cavalier about the episode for it to have ended so tragically, and in any case, it wouldn't help explain Gideon, who is alive and well in "present-day". Finally, I can't accept the idea of Cheeryble, simply because the idea of a secret identical twin is so cliched and hackneyed. So he doesn't exist in my headcanon, although I now see ways that Gideon could.
Post by Baar Baar Jinx on Sept 5, 2019 16:02:18 GMT
Oh, and the idea of Downy being the rich widow that Fergus married is negated, I think, by the fact that Scrooge's family does not seem well-off during his childhood. But who's to say Fergus didn't come into riches after his second (post-Downy) marriage? "Rich" being relative, of course; we're not talking about Scrooge-level wealth. That would mean that Gideon didn't have too impoverished a childhood, either. Do the comics suggest Gideon grew up poor?
Not as such (except for that same great but incompatible Scrooge-Gideon-Elvira story), but the English script of Shellfish Motives does go to great lengths to establish Scrooge and Gideon as having had parallel lives, one in business, the other in journalism — to paint Gideon as being as much of a self-made man as Scrooge.
See, I considered him being Downy's son out of marriage, but then he wouldn't be named McDuck, right? And in the same way, if he was Fergus' son out of marriage, he'd also not be named McDuck, like how Rumpus isn't. The only ways I see for him to have Fergus' name but not be counted as "Last of the Clan McDuck" is he's either not a blood relative, thus adopted, or young enough that when the comics said Scrooge was the last one they were right, and he was born after that event.
This going with the simplest answer, I mean. Otherwise we could have an entire yarn here about how he's Fergus son from out of wedlock, so he was named Gideon AnotherSurname, but then eventually at some point met either Fergus or Scrooge, and after some drama, accepted the name McDuck as part of his lineage or something
Gideon probably would be named McDuck even if his father was not a McDuck if Fergus adopted or if he was born during Fergus and Downy's marriage, in which case I doubt Downy would further the scandal by putting the name of her child's true father on his birth certificate as opposed to just simply pretending he's a true McDuck. If we have Gideon born out of another marriage between Downy and someone, maybe his father was just such a mean, nasty guy that Downy doesn't want his memory anywhere and doesn't want her son to have his last name. Maybe the fellow didn't die. Maybe Downy left him. Anyways, it's all the same as if he were adopted. The whole "affair" or "stepchild" stuff is just more convoluted, but they both lead to the same conclusion: Gideon is not a biological McDuck but was raised with the McDuck name.
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Personally, I don't care for the idea of Gideon being born after Downy's death. In addition to the fact that, as mentioned already on this thread, there is at least one story that shows the two McDuck boys growing up together, I feel like there's a certain fun to the idea that Scrooge and Gideon grew up together and their sibling rivalry goes all the way back to their childhood. I like the thought that, as I believe Scrooge MacDuck has suggested before, Scrooge grew up somewhat resenting the fact that a portion of the portion of his earnings he gave to his parents was going to fund Gideon's education. I also like the thought that Gideon was the brother given chickenpox by Scrooge.
The idea that chickenpox killed Scrooge's brother is a very interesting one and would work well in a dark and gritty interpretation of the Duck Universe. The issue with it has already been pointed out by Baar Baar Jinx. Grandma/Matilda/whoever-you-think-that-is is way too calm and cheery about it for it to had led to a death.
As far as this "rich widow" stuff, I think it's worth pointing out that the same strip that mentions this "rich widow" also refers to Scrooge's pops as a "spendthrift", does it not? That might be an explanation as to why the money doesn't seem to be there by The Last of the Clan McDuck. After all, I don't think we're to assume that this "rich widow" was anywhere near as rich as modern Scrooge. "Rich" means different things to different people and different contexts, so this widow may have been not rich enough to withstand Fergus's spendthrift ways.
Regardless, I do agree that this rich widow most likely wedded Fergus after Downy's death. It makes sense that a widow and a widower would marry. Also, YD 66-03-18 (a better scan be seen on its Scrooge McDuck Wiki page) has Scrooge say that his father left him 20 million. Not sure what this is 20 million of, but the use of the word "left" indicates that Scrooge received this sum after his father's death. Also, he says it was "to get started on." While Scrooge was already a billionaire at the time of Fergus's death (at least according to The Billionaire of Dismal Downs) an extra 20 million of any currency certainly would've helped his endeavors in the States. Also, being a billionaire is probably just "a start" compared to the massive fortune Scrooge would later compile which is so large it is measured in gibberish terms.
Anyway, one of the best ways I can think of for Fergus to even acquire twenty million to leave to Scrooge is through his marriage to the rich widow. It still doesn't make perfect sense as it might sort of contradict the whole thing from A Letter From Home about wanting Scrooge to make his own fortune and not feel like he had it handed to him, but then again, twenty million is just a fraction of what Scrooge had already acquired by the time of Fergus's death.
No matter what I say or do, know that Jesus loves you.
As far as this "rich widow" stuff, I think it's worth pointing out that the same strip that mentions this "rich widow" also refers to Scrooge's pops as a "spendthrift", does it not? That might be an explanation as to why the money doesn't seem to be there by The Last of the Clan McDuck.
Rosa's Fergus is depicted as every bit as stingy and a spendthrift as a McDuck would be expected to be. So it's doubtful he would have blown through his rich new wife's fortune that quickly. (When Scrooge refers to someone as a spendthrift, he probably means the person buys a newspaper every day.)