Post by TheMidgetMoose on May 14, 2019 5:15:45 GMT
This a question I've actually had for quite some time, and it's been discussed briefly on the Keno Korner thread. Because of this, I decided to open this thread. The premise of this thread is: Who is Pete? When I ask that, I'm not asking for a description of Pegleg Pete. The question is meant to be more so directed at Pete's origins.
As I'm sure a lot of us know, a character called Bootleg Pete debuted in Alice Solves the Puzzle in 1925. He was a bear with a peg-leg and was a recurring antagonist throughout the series. When the Oswald the Lucky Rabbit series began, a bear character named Pete would appear yet again. This Pete had a very similar design to the one from the Alice series, though it seemed to be updated slightly. Also, the peg-leg was only in some shorts. For example, in Sky Scrappers, Rival Romeos, and Great Guns!, characters who strongly resemble and possibly are Pete appear with no peg-leg in sight. Ocean Hop and Hungry Hobos, however, would depict him with a peg-leg. During this era, Pete seems to have gained something of a signature hat: a crooked top hat.
It's also worth noting that in Hungry Hobos, Pete and Oswald actually seem to be friends with each other, hinting that their rivalry has ended.
Just as this Pete the Bear (not an official name) character was developing, an antagonistic cat character was also developing in the same shorts. The first major Disney cat character was Julius the Cat, who debuted in 1922's Little Red Riding Hood and would be introduced to the Alice Comedies in 1924. Of course, Julius was not antagonistic. Rather, he was depicted as a more childish character.
Our very own Scrooge MacDuck recently made a blog post where he reviewed Alice the Whaler and pointed out that it featured a feline cook on a ship assisted by a mouse. This cat is clearly a separate character from Julius, however.
During the time Disney spent working on Oswald shorts, the idea of an antagonistic cat would continue to be developed. In Oh Teacher, there is an antagonistic cat who I would say has a design similar to that of the cat cook from Alice the Whaler, but was also depicted in a more childish manner along the lines of Julius. An even more childish cat would appear in All Wet.
I've read before that a mouse character called Ike Mouse was present in some Alice Comedies as a foil to Julius.
Mouse characters would continue to appear throughout the Oswald series in shorts such as Great Guns!
When Disney and the Oswald series parted ways in 1928, as we all know, Disney created Mickey Mouse. Not only does his name sound similar to Ike Mouse, but his initial design looks kind of like what one would get if they crossed Oswald the Lucky Rabbit and the mouse from Alice the Whaler (who I assume is none other than Ike). While Mickey was technically a new character, I wonder if he was seen as and supposed to be a redesign or something of a reboot of the mouse from the Alice and Oswald shorts.
What happened to the antagonistic cat(s) and Pete? Well, Mintz, who took over the Oswald shorts, and later Lantz, still continued to use Pete the Bear, and not always as an antagonist! In Hell's Heels, for example, he and Oswald appear to be part of a gang to together. The idea of an annoying little kitten was also used during the Mintz and Lantz era. Apparently, they gave him various names such as "Homer" or "Pussy Willie."
While Pete and Homer continued to live on, Disney also continued the idea of a cat antagonist. As I'm sure we all now, as early as The Gallopin' Gaucho and Steamboat Willie, an antagonistic cat appeared. This cat had a design very similar to the chef in Alice the Whaler. According to the first strip in the Mickey Mouse in Death Valley series, this cat was named Terrible Tom, but he would later be referred to as "Pegleg Pete", clearly a call-back to Pete the Bear, even though the two characters look very alike! Actually, it would seem that Disney comic strip character Sylvester Shyster inherited Oswald Pete's crooked top hat, indicating that the former might have been inspired by the latter.
Things get more confusing when you watch some of the shorts of that era. The cat in When The Cat's Away is often said to be the same as the cat from The Karnival Kid, who is also said to be the same as Kat Nipp from Gottfredson's Mickey Mouse vs. Kat Nipp, which portrays Nipp as clearly a separate character from Pete. However, the name of the cat in When The Cat's Away is Tom Cat, a name very similar to "Terrible Tom", and Terrible Tom is the same character as Pegleg Pete, at least based on Mickey Mouse In Death Valley.
Also worth noting here is that Tom/Pete/Nipp has a rivalry with Mickey that could be described as akin to that of Julius and Ike's, even though Tom/Pete/Nipp is depicted as much more villainous than Julius.
My question is: Was Terrible Tom originally supposed to be Pete, or was he supposed to be the cook from Alice the Whaler or even the cat from Oh Teacher? The whole thing is very confusing. Also, how did Terrible Tom even get the name of Pete? Was Pete the original name and someone forgot along the way and came up with "Terrible Tom"? Also, how do we know the guy in The Karnival Kid is Kat Nipp, and how do we know that guy is the same as "Tom Cat"?
To add on, to all of this, it seems that later Oswald shorts invented a character named Welsh Rabbit. I've seen some sources say that he was a redesign of Pete, but I'm not too sure about that. Also, at some point along the way (I'm not sure when), Oswald was given a bear friend named Toby. I looked at Toby's design in the recent comic Just Like Magic, and he has a striking resemblance to Oswald Pete. Since we already have sources showing that Pete and Oswald are sometimes friends, is Toby just a further evolution of Pete?
This whole situation is confusing. What do you guys think? Is Toby Bear an evolution of Pete? What's the difference between Tom, Pete, and Kat Nipp? Also, is the cat version of Pete the same character as the bear version? Were they intended to be the same character, or was Cat-Pete supposed to be an evolution of a different cat character from Alice Comedies or Oswald the Lucky Rabbit.
Perhaps to illustrate my thoughts, I hastily put together a chart that shows which characters seem to have inspired another. It starts with non-Disney character, Felix the Cat, whose design inspired Julius, and leads to modern-day Pete as well as other character. It's not the best looking thing in the world, but hopefully it can sort of illustrate what I'm imagining here with how these characters have evolved over time.
imgur.com/a/erxkJUA
Edit: I noticed that several characters may be missing from my chart (such as Tom Cat, who shares a name with Terrible Tom but is supposedly the same as Kat Nipp). Like I said, it was put together quickly and was done to illustrate my thoughts, not so much what's canonical or makes sense.
Also, to clarify the questions, just in case they didn't make sense: What is the real-world explanation for all this confusion between Toby, Pete, Tom, Kat Nipp, and others? What was the intention of the creators? What is the in-universe explanation? How many characters branching from the original Bootleg Pete exist in-universe?
As I'm sure a lot of us know, a character called Bootleg Pete debuted in Alice Solves the Puzzle in 1925. He was a bear with a peg-leg and was a recurring antagonist throughout the series. When the Oswald the Lucky Rabbit series began, a bear character named Pete would appear yet again. This Pete had a very similar design to the one from the Alice series, though it seemed to be updated slightly. Also, the peg-leg was only in some shorts. For example, in Sky Scrappers, Rival Romeos, and Great Guns!, characters who strongly resemble and possibly are Pete appear with no peg-leg in sight. Ocean Hop and Hungry Hobos, however, would depict him with a peg-leg. During this era, Pete seems to have gained something of a signature hat: a crooked top hat.
It's also worth noting that in Hungry Hobos, Pete and Oswald actually seem to be friends with each other, hinting that their rivalry has ended.
Just as this Pete the Bear (not an official name) character was developing, an antagonistic cat character was also developing in the same shorts. The first major Disney cat character was Julius the Cat, who debuted in 1922's Little Red Riding Hood and would be introduced to the Alice Comedies in 1924. Of course, Julius was not antagonistic. Rather, he was depicted as a more childish character.
Our very own Scrooge MacDuck recently made a blog post where he reviewed Alice the Whaler and pointed out that it featured a feline cook on a ship assisted by a mouse. This cat is clearly a separate character from Julius, however.
During the time Disney spent working on Oswald shorts, the idea of an antagonistic cat would continue to be developed. In Oh Teacher, there is an antagonistic cat who I would say has a design similar to that of the cat cook from Alice the Whaler, but was also depicted in a more childish manner along the lines of Julius. An even more childish cat would appear in All Wet.
I've read before that a mouse character called Ike Mouse was present in some Alice Comedies as a foil to Julius.
Mouse characters would continue to appear throughout the Oswald series in shorts such as Great Guns!
When Disney and the Oswald series parted ways in 1928, as we all know, Disney created Mickey Mouse. Not only does his name sound similar to Ike Mouse, but his initial design looks kind of like what one would get if they crossed Oswald the Lucky Rabbit and the mouse from Alice the Whaler (who I assume is none other than Ike). While Mickey was technically a new character, I wonder if he was seen as and supposed to be a redesign or something of a reboot of the mouse from the Alice and Oswald shorts.
What happened to the antagonistic cat(s) and Pete? Well, Mintz, who took over the Oswald shorts, and later Lantz, still continued to use Pete the Bear, and not always as an antagonist! In Hell's Heels, for example, he and Oswald appear to be part of a gang to together. The idea of an annoying little kitten was also used during the Mintz and Lantz era. Apparently, they gave him various names such as "Homer" or "Pussy Willie."
While Pete and Homer continued to live on, Disney also continued the idea of a cat antagonist. As I'm sure we all now, as early as The Gallopin' Gaucho and Steamboat Willie, an antagonistic cat appeared. This cat had a design very similar to the chef in Alice the Whaler. According to the first strip in the Mickey Mouse in Death Valley series, this cat was named Terrible Tom, but he would later be referred to as "Pegleg Pete", clearly a call-back to Pete the Bear, even though the two characters look very alike! Actually, it would seem that Disney comic strip character Sylvester Shyster inherited Oswald Pete's crooked top hat, indicating that the former might have been inspired by the latter.
Things get more confusing when you watch some of the shorts of that era. The cat in When The Cat's Away is often said to be the same as the cat from The Karnival Kid, who is also said to be the same as Kat Nipp from Gottfredson's Mickey Mouse vs. Kat Nipp, which portrays Nipp as clearly a separate character from Pete. However, the name of the cat in When The Cat's Away is Tom Cat, a name very similar to "Terrible Tom", and Terrible Tom is the same character as Pegleg Pete, at least based on Mickey Mouse In Death Valley.
Also worth noting here is that Tom/Pete/Nipp has a rivalry with Mickey that could be described as akin to that of Julius and Ike's, even though Tom/Pete/Nipp is depicted as much more villainous than Julius.
My question is: Was Terrible Tom originally supposed to be Pete, or was he supposed to be the cook from Alice the Whaler or even the cat from Oh Teacher? The whole thing is very confusing. Also, how did Terrible Tom even get the name of Pete? Was Pete the original name and someone forgot along the way and came up with "Terrible Tom"? Also, how do we know the guy in The Karnival Kid is Kat Nipp, and how do we know that guy is the same as "Tom Cat"?
To add on, to all of this, it seems that later Oswald shorts invented a character named Welsh Rabbit. I've seen some sources say that he was a redesign of Pete, but I'm not too sure about that. Also, at some point along the way (I'm not sure when), Oswald was given a bear friend named Toby. I looked at Toby's design in the recent comic Just Like Magic, and he has a striking resemblance to Oswald Pete. Since we already have sources showing that Pete and Oswald are sometimes friends, is Toby just a further evolution of Pete?
This whole situation is confusing. What do you guys think? Is Toby Bear an evolution of Pete? What's the difference between Tom, Pete, and Kat Nipp? Also, is the cat version of Pete the same character as the bear version? Were they intended to be the same character, or was Cat-Pete supposed to be an evolution of a different cat character from Alice Comedies or Oswald the Lucky Rabbit.
Perhaps to illustrate my thoughts, I hastily put together a chart that shows which characters seem to have inspired another. It starts with non-Disney character, Felix the Cat, whose design inspired Julius, and leads to modern-day Pete as well as other character. It's not the best looking thing in the world, but hopefully it can sort of illustrate what I'm imagining here with how these characters have evolved over time.
imgur.com/a/erxkJUA
Edit: I noticed that several characters may be missing from my chart (such as Tom Cat, who shares a name with Terrible Tom but is supposedly the same as Kat Nipp). Like I said, it was put together quickly and was done to illustrate my thoughts, not so much what's canonical or makes sense.
Also, to clarify the questions, just in case they didn't make sense: What is the real-world explanation for all this confusion between Toby, Pete, Tom, Kat Nipp, and others? What was the intention of the creators? What is the in-universe explanation? How many characters branching from the original Bootleg Pete exist in-universe?