Jones' first name?

[juicymcduck]

Hi everyone! I've seen, here and there, people accepting as a hard fact that Neighbor Jones' first name is "Jughead," but I'm having serious doubts about it. Now, hear me out, I know it’s not totally unfounded. Of course, I know about that one panel from Barks’ Outfoxed, in which Scrooge casually refers to a neighbor of Donald’s as "Jughead Jones"...

However...

We’re not sure it’s meant to be the same Jones as usual. I mean, it’s highly likely, but still unconfirmed, right? But more importantly, why would we assume it’s an actual first name, as opposed to Scrooge using a derogatory nickname in reference to this Jones’s buzz haircut on a flat head?

(Now of course, there’s also another elephant in the room: did Barks know about the other, more famous Jughead Jones, the one from Archie Comics?)

[sim]

Mar 18, 2024 18:02:50 GMT juicymcduck said:

Hi everyone! I've seen, here and there, people accepting as a hard fact that Neighbor Jones' first name is "Jughead," but I'm having serious doubts about it. Now, hear me out, I know it’s not totally unfounded. Of course, I know about that one panel from Barks’ Outfoxed, in which Scrooge casually refers to a neighbor of Donald’s as "Jughead Jones"...

However...

We’re not sure it’s meant to be the same Jones as usual. I mean, it’s highly likely, but still unconfirmed, right? But more importantly, why would we assume it’s an actual first name, as opposed to Scrooge using a derogatory nickname in reference to this Jone’s buzz haircut on a flat head?

(Now of course, there’s also another elephant in the room: did Barks know about the other, more famous Jughead Jones, the one from Archie Comics?)

I vividly remember him being called "Jimmy" in the '60s Italian stories drawn by Massimo De Vita. If I recall correctly, that is the name his mother calls him, so you might want to check Barks's story featuring her to see if the name originated there.

[LP]

Mar 18, 2024 18:47:17 GMT sim said:

I vividly remember him being called "Jimmy" in the '60s Italian stories drawn by Massimo De Vita. If I recall correctly, that is the name his mother calls him, so you might want to check Barks's story featuring her to see if the name originated there.

I just checked Feud and Far Between. Jones's mother appears in only one panel and she does not refer to her son by name.

If Jones's first name is "Jimmy" it must have originated later. In any case - it's funny how, like Jughead Jones, there's another fictional character named "Jim Jones" too. Or rather "Jimbo Jones", from The Simpsons.

[Ramapith]

At various points (including a chat with me!), Barks confirmed that the slightly-different-looking "Jughead" Jones in the US 6 story was intended as his usual Jones.

He drew him there without looking back at the earlier stories, and after years without having used him, he got him rather off-model; but he was meant as the same character.

As for his first name: we obviously can't call him Jughead Jones in new stories today, but at Fantagraphics we've called him Jugford, which is as close as we can get (and sounds more like what an actual name for him might be, quite honestly; I can't imagine "Jughead" as anything but a nickname).

"Jim," "Jimmy," and "Joe" are names that Italian writers seem to use endlessly for all manner of characters, seemingly just because they sound stereotypically American, and everybody knows (in Italy) that Disney is supposed to be iconically American. I've seen Egmont and S-coded stories where characters with more complex or unusual English names became Jim, Jimmy, Joe, and even combinations of them ("Joe Jim" as a full name!) in Italian localizations.

The moment a character is named Jimmy or Joe in Italian, my immediate assumption is to guess this wasn't his original name.

[RobbK1]

Mar 18, 2024 22:08:14 GMT Ramapith said:

At various points (including a chat with me!), Barks confirmed that the slightly-different-looking "Jughead" Jones in the US 6 story was intended as his usual Jones.

He drew him there without looking back at the earlier stories, and after years without having used him, he got him rather off-model; but he was meant as the same character.

As for his first name: we obviously can't call him Jughead Jones in new stories today, but at Fantagraphics we've called him Jugford, which is as close as we can get (and sounds more like what an actual name for him might be, quite honestly; I can't imagine "Jughead" as anything but a nickname).

"Jim," "Jimmy," and "Joe" are names that Italian writers seem to use endlessly for all manner of characters, seemingly just because they sound stereotypically American, and everybody knows (in Italy) that Disney is supposed to be iconically American. I've seen Egmont and S-coded stories where characters with more complex or unusual English names became Jim, Jimmy, Joe, and even combinations of them ("Joe Jim" as a full name!) in Italian localizations.

The moment a character is named Jimmy or Joe in Italian, my immediate assumption is to guess this wasn't his original name.

Yes, Carl told me that same account.  Therefore, I will always assume that "Jughead" IS his given "birth certificate name", and not a derogatory nickname.  It's not nearly as outrageous as naming a boy "Sue", or naming your children "Moon Unit", or "Dweezil".  Some parents are selfishly cruel in that regard, not thinking about poor treatment they might get from their unempathetic schoolmates.

[juicymcduck]

Mar 18, 2024 22:08:14 GMT Ramapith said:

At various points (including a chat with me!), Barks confirmed that the slightly-different-looking "Jughead" Jones in the US 6 story was intended as his usual Jones.

He drew him there without looking back at the earlier stories, and after years without having used him, he got him rather off-model; but he was meant as the same character.

As for his first name: we obviously can't call him Jughead Jones in new stories today, but at Fantagraphics we've called him Jugford, which is as close as we can get (and sounds more like what an actual name for him might be, quite honestly; I can't imagine "Jughead" as anything but a nickname).

"Jim," "Jimmy," and "Joe" are names that Italian writers seem to use endlessly for all manner of characters, seemingly just because they sound stereotypically American, and everybody knows (in Italy) that Disney is supposed to be iconically American. I've seen Egmont and S-coded stories where characters with more complex or unusual English names became Jim, Jimmy, Joe, and even combinations of them ("Joe Jim" as a full name!) in Italian localizations.

The moment a character is named Jimmy or Joe in Italian, my immediate assumption is to guess this wasn't his original name.

That's very interesting! I had never come across the name "Jugford," but now I'll keep my eyes peeled for it! For the record, I translate Disney stories of various origins for French magazines, and we don't have a universally accepted first name for Jones (who in French is called Lagrogne, basically "the Grumble"). Over the years, he's been called Léon, Alfred and Achille. As far as I'm concerned, I do prefer Achille, but that's not the point. It's actually a recurring problem (characters having multiple names in French), and I did suggest a way to try and solve it some time ago, but it hasn't come to fruition (yet?)

[megamau]

This discussion made me curious on how Anacleto Mitraglia (the "italian" DD neighbour) is translated in English.
Is he conflated with Jones ?

None of the stories in which he is the "hero" seems to have been translated to English.

inducks.org/comp2.php?code=&keyw=&keywt=i&exactpg=&pg1=&pg2=&bro2=&bro3=&exactparts=&parts1=&parts2=&kind=0&rowsperpage=0&columnsperpage=0&hero=Anacleto&xapp=&univ=&xa2=&creat=&creat2=&plot=&plot2=&writ=&writ2=&art=&art2=&ink=&ink2=&excludeCZ=on&excludeUseDifferentCode=on&pub1=&pub2=&ser=&xref=&mref=&xrefd=&repabbs=&reppub1=&reppub2=&repnum=&imgmode=1&vdesc2=on&vdesc=en&vau=on&vdc=on&vgy=on&vnz=on&vuk=on&vus=on&sort1=auto

[bats]

Mar 20, 2024 15:03:44 GMT megamau said:

This discussion made me curious on how Anacleto Mitraglia (the "italian" DD neighbour) is translated in English.
Is he conflated with Jones ?

Here in Norway, Anacleto Mitraglia is named "Adalstein Olsen", while Jones is "Jensen" ("Jens Jensen" in the de Vita stories mentioned earlier). So presumably Egmont as a whole treats them as two entirely separate characters. 

(both characters have had the occasional different name due to translators not remembering the earlier localizations, but the two mentioned above have been standardized for a very long time)

[Ramapith]

Mar 20, 2024 15:03:44 GMT megamau said:

This discussion made me curious on how Anacleto Mitraglia (the "italian" DD neighbour) is translated in English.
Is he conflated with Jones ?

Since there are occasional stories that show both of them together, I would never translate him as Jones.

A few old Egmont stories, including this one, give Donald a friendlier, more refined rival-neighbor named Smitty on one side of his house. When I used to work at Egmont (1997-2004), I was told that Smitty had begun as the result of artists inadvertently misdrawing Jones—much like Mitraglia's origin—until he was deliberately differentiated.

Smitty was used so infrequently that I notice he's not xapped, though one writer did use him alongside Jones in this later story that I edited while at Egmont.

While Smitty doesn't exactly resemble the slimmer Mitraglia, I'd absolutely localize Mitraglia as Smitty; it works with his personality quite nicely.

[Marshmarigoldie]

Mar 23, 2024 16:14:58 GMT Ramapith said:

Mar 20, 2024 15:03:44 GMT megamau said:

This discussion made me curious on how Anacleto Mitraglia (the "italian" DD neighbour) is translated in English.
Is he conflated with Jones ?

Since there are occasional stories that show both of them together, I would never translate him as Jones.

Funnily enough, the Polish translations do just that lol... They are both "Jones". I don't recall reading any story where both of them were playing a role, but my best guess would be the poor translators would have to either make them cousins or add a joke about what a coincidence their last names are 

[juicymcduck]

Speaking of Jones, does anyone know whether his house is always shown on the same side relative to Donald's? (I doubt Barks would've cared too much about that, I think he used to place the house depending on what was most convenient within a given story.)

[RobbK1]

Apr 19, 2024 12:17:06 GMT juicymcduck said:

Speaking of Jones, does anyone know whether his house is always shown on the same side relative to Donald's? (I doubt Barks would've cared too much about that, I think he used to place the house depending on what was most convenient within a given story.)

WDC #34 - (1st design-Black,Hound-faced Jones)-facing houses' street frontage, Donald's house is on left.

WDC #38 - Facing their respective houses' street frontage, Jones' house is to Donald's house's left.-So Donalds' on right.

WDC #47 - (Different Jones design) - Looking towards the street side, Jones' backyard is to the right, so Donald's house is on the left.

WDC #48 - Donald and Jones' backyards back ends are separated by a fence. Their houses must face different parallel streets.

WDC #63 - We only see the front of Jones' house, not which direction from which Donald arrived there from leaving his own front gate.

WDC #64 - Unissued first submittal (Christmas Caroling)-Not shown from which directions Donald goes to Jones' house from his own, and from which he returns.

US #6 - Facing the street frontage, Jones' house is to the right of Donalds'-so Donald's is on the left.

WDC #229 - Looking from the street towards the houses, Donald's backyard (and thus, house) is to the left of Mr. Pupp's (who Barks drew exactly like Jones (and surely intended him to be Jones, originally.  Perhaps his editor thought the new readers wouldn't know Jones, and he should just make him a new character.

WDC #281 - Looking from the street towards the houses, Donalds house is on the left of Jones'.

WDC #289 - Looking from the side of Donald's house towards both backyards, Donald's house is on the left of Jones'.

So, Donald's house is on the left side of Jones' looking from the street 6 out of 7 stories where they are adjacent facing the same street.  They had the backs of their properties separated by a wall , so they were oriented towards different streets and had addresses on different streets in one story.  Interestingly, Jones lived to Donald's left only in the first story he had his standard and final character design, in late 1943.  In that classic first story with his well-known character design, he had a 2-story house, as did Donald.  So, both moved after that story.  Donald moved to a one-storey house across Duckburg at the end of the story, and Jones lives next to him there.  We can assume that Jones also has a new one-story home there, because all future stories show Donald's house on the left, and both houses having only one storey (floor level).

[LP]

Interesting. I always think of Jones being on the left of Donald, but it seems that's not really how it is in Barks' stories. I grew up reading a lot of Rosa, so that's probably what has influenced me. Rosa only used Jones twice (in Recalled Wreck and Fit to be pied) and both stories place Jones on the left of Donald.