"Mouseton" in the FantaGraphics Gottfredson books

[Matilda]

Just a related note: in the Stefan Petrucha-scripted Mickey's Inferno, the first paragraph on p. 1 starts "A sunny day in Duckburg and our heroes are about to compete a charity performance of The Divine Comedy"; and on p. 2 it says "Instead of being absorbed into their reading, their reading absorbs them, taking them from cozy Duckburg into the real Inferno!" That "Duckburg" jumped out at me. Is it the Italian equivalent of Duckburg in the original? The only inhabitants shown on these pages are Mickey, Goofy, Minnie, Pete and his accomplice Morty, and dognoses. No Ducks at all.

[RobbK1]

Oct 7, 2016 0:59:46 GMT Matilda said:

Just a related note: in the Stefan Petrucha-scripted Mickey's Inferno, the first paragraph on p. 1 starts "A sunny day in Duckburg and our heroes are about to compete a charity performance of The Divine Comedy"; and on p. 2 it says "Instead of being absorbed into their reading, their reading absorbs them, taking them from cozy Duckburg into the real Inferno!" That "Duckburg" jumped out at me. Is it the Italian equivalent of Duckburg in the original? The only inhabitants shown on these pages are Mickey, Goofy, Minnie, Pete and his accomplice Morty, and dognoses. No Ducks at all.

In The Netherlands, we have all The Disney Universes centred around Duckstad (Duckburg), same for Scandinavia (Andeby et al), Finland, Germany and, apparently Italy (and, I guess Greece and Brazil?).  And in France, aren't The Mouse and Duck Universes both located in some kind of "Duckville" (Canardville?)  It seems to me that it is only USA (Canada, Australia) that have them separated (not sure about The UK when they had their own publications - maybe David can inform us about that?).

[Scrooge MacDuck]

Oct 7, 2016 4:22:06 GMT RobbK1 said:

Oct 7, 2016 0:59:46 GMT Matilda said:

Just a related note: in the Stefan Petrucha-scripted Mickey's Inferno, the first paragraph on p. 1 starts "A sunny day in Duckburg and our heroes are about to compete a charity performance of The Divine Comedy"; and on p. 2 it says "Instead of being absorbed into their reading, their reading absorbs them, taking them from cozy Duckburg into the real Inferno!" That "Duckburg" jumped out at me. Is it the Italian equivalent of Duckburg in the original? The only inhabitants shown on these pages are Mickey, Goofy, Minnie, Pete and his accomplice Morty, and dognoses. No Ducks at all.

In The Netherlands, we have all The Disney Universes centred around Duckstad (Duckburg), same for Scandinavia (Andeby et al), Finland, Germany and, apparently Italy (and, I guess Greece and Brazil?).  And aren't The Mouse and Duck Universes both located in some kind of "Duckville" (Canardville?)  It seems to me that it is only USA (Canada, Australia) that have them separated (not sure about The UK when they had their own publications - maybe David can inform us about that?).

No, in Italy they have Paperopoli (Duckburg) and Topolinia (Mouseton). In fact, they were the first to create that distinction. But they have Paperopoli and Topolinia be neighboring cities both located in Calidornia/Calisota.

[radef]

In Poland in all comics (Egmont, Disney Italia, Western) ducks live in Kaczogród (Duckburg) and mouses live in Myszogród (Mouseton.

[The KKM]

In Portugal we used to, like with Brazil, have everyone live in Duckburg, but the most recent last 6-year-or-so run of comics, since they translate more faithfully from the Italian, came up with a Mouseton translation (or Topolinia, more correctly).

[Scrooge MacDuck]

Out of sheer curiosity, what are the names of Duckburg and Mouseton in Portuguese?

[The KKM]

Duckburg's been Patópolis from the start as far as I know (Duckopolis? Another sign of Brazilian heritage- no city in Portugal is named "something-opolis"). When they needed to add a Topolinia, they just replaced the duck particle (pato) with a mouse particle (rato)- they're similar enough. So now it's Patópolis and Ratópolis.

[Baar Baar Jinx]

Heh, heh ... just realized there's a reference to "Mouseton Pier" in one of IDW's promos for their Mickey Animated Shorts title ... that's true dedication to the cause!

[drakeborough]

Oct 7, 2016 0:59:46 GMT Matilda said:

Just a related note: in the Stefan Petrucha-scripted Mickey's Inferno, the first paragraph on p. 1 starts "A sunny day in Duckburg and our heroes are about to compete a charity performance of The Divine Comedy"; and on p. 2 it says "Instead of being absorbed into their reading, their reading absorbs them, taking them from cozy Duckburg into the real Inferno!" That "Duckburg" jumped out at me. Is it the Italian equivalent of Duckburg in the original? The only inhabitants shown on these pages are Mickey, Goofy, Minnie, Pete and his accomplice Morty, and dognoses. No Ducks at all.

No city is mentioned in the Italian version, and for good reason: it couldn't be Paperopoli (Duckburg) because the story is set in the mouse universe rather than the duck universe, and it couldn't be Topolinia (Mouseton) because that name wasn't created until 1952, while Mickey's Inferno is from 1949.

Anyway, here are the first three pages of the comic in Italian:

[drakeborough]

Sept 30, 2016 5:24:32 GMT deb said:

Much like reading of Duckburg in reference to the Al Taliaferro strips, which to my knowledge didn't give Donald's hometown a name.

Sept 30, 2016 14:42:16 GMT Baar Baar Jinx said:

Did Taliaferro not eventually use "Duckburg" in his later strips?

I don't know if Taliaferro ever used "Duckburg" in his later strips or not, but I know that his successors on the Donald Duck newspaper comics did use Duckburg, as I have found three examples of that.

Daily strip of February 1, 1977 (I think the sign reads "Duckburg National Bank"):

Daily strip of 10 February, 1977:

Daily strip of March 10, 1987 (Inducks only has a link of the Norwegian version, but since it says "Andeby" I guess the original American version says "Duckburg"):

[drakeborough]

Sept 29, 2016 23:29:50 GMT Baar Baar Jinx said:

I am aware of one use of "Mouseville" in Gottfredson's work ... the Phantom Blot continuity. Was it used at any other time?

Oct 2, 2016 2:49:52 GMT Ramapith said:

I remember it appearing once or twice in 1950s strips. Unfortunately, I can't recall a specific one right at the moment.

In addition to the Phantom Blot continuity, Mouseville was also used in the Dr. X continuity (1955), in which we can see a newspaper titled The Mouseville Monitor:

I don't know if there are other uses of Mouseville in the newspaper comics, but I see that an obscure W-coded Chip 'n' Dale story from 1980 (which does not feature the Mickey cast) is titled The Sheriffs of Mouseville.

[phantomduck]

I put here a conversation we had about Mouseton on another thread, so we can discuss it more freely.

Apr 1, 2017 21:57:56 GMT drakeborough said:

[...]

*According to what we have said so far in this thread, the earliest known source to portray them as sibilings is this 1960 poetry. I don't have a great knowledge of Italian duck comics from 1960 to 1973, so I can't say how much the idea was popular at the time. All I know is that the idea appeared in at least two stories of that period: this Italian story from 1964 and this S-coded story from 1969, published in Italy in the same year. About the latter, I already said in a previous message that I don't know if the sibiling reference was already there in the original version or if it was added by the Italian translator.

Apr 1, 2017 23:19:16 GMT phantomduck said:

If this is the case, it doesn't surprise me. From this set of 6 pictures (which were given to subscribers if I'm not mistaken), we have also the first case of Italians giving their version of Mouseton an actual name. "A Topolinia gran turbamento", which was then used as an official name on the Romano Scarpa story. Totally unrelated and off-topic, but it surprised me nonetheless. I thought that the only "important" picture for this set was the one about Topolinia, but it seems that we have another one with historic value.

Apr 2, 2017 10:52:46 GMT drakeborough said:

Before we close the off-topic: the picture you linked ("A Topolinia gran turbamento", 1960) is NOT the first instance of Italians using the name Topolinia to identify Mickey's hometown. The name Topolinia was first used in the (badly written and badly drawn) 1952 story Topolino nella valle dell'incanto (text by Guido Martina, art by Rino Anzi), in a caption box on page 5:

Despite its poor quality, the story is notable for the first Italian appearances of Scrooge McDuck and Chief O'Hara (to Scrooge, it's also the first non-American appearance), for the first mention of Topolinia, and for a mention of the Maharajah of Howduyustan being broke because of Scrooge.

I don't know which is the second use of Topolinia and when it was published; all I know is that in the 1955 story Topolino e la doppia vigilia di Natale (text by Guido Martina, art by Luciano Bottaro) the name was changed to Topolinopoli...

... and the name Topolinopoli was used again in (at least) one other story: Topolino e il sentiero degli elefanti from 1959 (text by Guido Martina, art by Giuseppe Perego):

Of course, the name became Topolinia again in later stories. I don't know when, but browsing thorugh Inducks scans of the first pages of each story I see that in 1960 (the same year of the picture you linked) the name Topolinia was used in at least three stories: Topolino e la droga diabolica (text by Gian Giacomo Dalmasso, art by Giulio Chierchini)...

... Topolino e la rivolta delle ombre (text by Ennio Missaglia, art by Giovan Battista Carpi)...

... and Prologo ai Gialli di Topolino (text by Gian Giacomo Dalmasso, art by Giuseppe Perego):

Since the exact release date of the 6 pictures given to subscribers is unknown, I can't say if these pictures came before, after or inbetween these three stories. Anyway, Inducks scans of the first pages of the stories show that the name Topolinia was used again in 1961 stories, including the Scarpa story you linked.

That said, the idea of Donald and Mickey living in separate cities wasn't set in stone in Italian stories of the 1950's: for example, two of the stories mentioned above ("Topolino nella valle dell'incanto" and "Topolino e la doppia vigilia di Natale") use Topolinia/Topolinopoli not only as Mickey's hometown, but also as Donald's. Conersely, other Italian stories from the same period had Mickey live in Paperopoli (Duckburg), a name that was even used in the translation of at least one Gottfredson story. Some other story of the time had Donald and Mickey live together in an unnamed city.

Apr 2, 2017 11:08:14 GMT phantomduck said:

Valuable pieces of historical information right there, thanks! Unfortunately I don't speak Italian so I couldn't have searched on all those stories (especially since they haven't been published in my country), so I based my research on translated articles that assumed that picture was the first appearance of the Italian name of the city.

I think the story Topolino nella valle dell'incanto has great historic value and it's a shame that we haven't seen it outside of Italy. I know it may not stand up very well today, but it would be worth it for archival purposes. What I didn't know, was that appeared the name "Topolinia" in there as well, something that makes it even more valuable, in my eyes at least

And here goes the new part.

Apr 2, 2017 15:27:23 GMT drakeborough said:

Apr 2, 2017 11:08:14 GMT phantomduck said:

so I based my research on translated articles that assumed that picture was the first appearance of the Italian name of the city.

Do you remember which articles said that?

I got it from a site about information for rare coins. Most likely they have copy / pasted parts from various other sites (like this), including geocities that are not accessible any more. The part that we are interested about is:

In Italy, Mickey's hometown was lovingly developed by Romano Scarpa. He named this imaginary city “Topolinia”. The first mention of this town may have been in a 1-page illustration/print from 1960 (layout by Scarpa with lyric by Guido Martina) entitled A Topolinia gran turbamento. Described as an “Omaggio Abbonati”, it was one of the 6 Romano Scarpa prints made in 1960 especially as a giveaway for the subscribers of Topolino magazine. According to Mr. Gilles R. Maurice, the first actual story to feature Topolinia was Topolino imperatore della Calidornia (“Mickey, Emperor of Calidornia”; part 1 was in issue 274 of Topolino 274 — from February 26, 1961 — and part 2 was in issue 275 — from March 5, 1961): “In the rough copies he made for the script of” that story “we can see that Romano Scarpa is searching a name close to California, to make Mickey reign on it. Ruling out ‘Canidornia’ and ‘Calicorbia’ (he probably didn't know that 9 years before, Barks had already created Calisota). He finally chose Calidornia, and draws a map of it on first panel.” Scarpa's map also shows a third city, named “Giuncavilla”, which means “Junkville” (it was later changed to Ocopoli/Ocaville, which means “Goosetown”). Topolino imperatore della Calidornia was reprinted numerous times in Europe, including in France, where as Mickey empereur de Calidornie, it first appeared in issue 723 of Mickey Parade (April 3, 1966). “After Mickey Parade's article, ‘Romano Scarpa put “Topolinia” (Mouseton) where actually stands Los Angeles, then comes “Paperopoli” (Duckburg) where is San Francisco.’ But on this map, Duckburg would rather be San Francisco, Mouseton would be more Bakersfield and Goosetown would be L.A…Calidornia would be the actual California in a parallel Disney universe. We could assume that it's the Italian translation for Barks' Calisota…” According to another source (an Italian Web-site) Topolinia is located at the mouth of the Mouse River, and its first inhabitants were the Spanish buccaneers who arrived there in 1690; it also claims that according to Romano Scarpa, in the XIX century, the city was named “Spavent City”.

MAY have been, but it's not as it seems. I just saw it and thought of it as a fact, it's time to reconsider.

[drakeborough]

Apr 4, 2017 7:09:31 GMT phantomduck said:

I put here a conversation we had about Mouseton on another thread, so we can discuss it more freely.

Good idea.

Apr 2, 2017 10:52:46 GMT drakeborough said:

The name Topolinia was first used in the (badly written and badly drawn) 1952 story Topolino nella valle dell'incanto (text by Guido Martina, art by Rino Anzi), in a caption box on page 5:

It seems the image disappeared while you quoted this message, so I'll post it again:

Apr 4, 2017 7:09:31 GMT phantomduck said:

Apr 2, 2017 15:27:23 GMT drakeborough said:

Do you remember which articles said that?

I got it from a site about information for rare coins. Most likely they have copy / pasted parts from various other sites (like this), including geocities that are not accessible any more.

Ok, so you didn't read it in printed articles but in online articles. And now that I think about it, I remember reading both articles you linked.

In Italy, Mickey's hometown was lovingly developed by Romano Scarpa. He named this imaginary city “Topolinia”. The first mention of this town may have been in a 1-page illustration/print from 1960 (layout by Scarpa with lyric by Guido Martina) entitled A Topolinia gran turbamento.

Well, they were cautious enough to write "may have been". I don't blame them for not knowing  a 1952 Italian story whose only non-Italian edition was a Turkish edition from 1954. Even in Italy, the story has only been reprinted once (in 2011) and both articles probably predate that.

According to Mr. Gilles R. Maurice, the first actual story to feature Topolinia was Topolino imperatore della Calidornia

In this case, their mistake is that Maurice never said that "Topolino imperatore della Calidornia" is the first mention of Topolinia.

I'll close the message with two pieces of trivia:

*This 2001 Italian story takes place when Mickey was a boy and is titled "Topolino, ragazzaccio di Mouseville" ("Mickey Mouse, bad boy of Mouseville"). I am not sure why the name Mouseville was used instead of Topolinia: maybe the author regarded it as a different city?

*In the Mickey Mouse Sunday page of March 12, 1967 (written by Roy Williams and drawn by Manuel Gonzales), Mickey's city is called OURTOWN. Weird name:

[phantomduck]

Apr 4, 2017 8:11:06 GMT drakeborough said:

Ok, so you didn't read it in printed articles but in online articles. And now that I think about it, I remember reading both articles you linked.

Yes, it's really difficult to find English printed articles on those subjects. So we need to be extra careful when we read about them online, because it might lead in examples such as that one I took for granted.

Apr 4, 2017 8:11:06 GMT drakeborough said:

According to Mr. Gilles R. Maurice, the first actual story to feature Topolinia was Topolino imperatore della Calidornia

In this case, their mistake is that Maurice never said that "Topolino imperatore della Calidornia" is the first mention of Topolinia.

I think the keyword here is "feature". I haven't read the Maurice's source to know, but I guess it could say something along the lines "Topolinia was mentioned earlier, but the first time it was depicted as a place with actual origin, was Topolino imperatore della Calidornia". Or maybe something like that.

Apr 4, 2017 8:11:06 GMT drakeborough said:

I'll close the message with two pieces of trivia:

*This 2001 Italian story takes place when Mickey was a boy and is titled "Topolino, ragazzaccio di Mouseville" ("Mickey Mouse, bad boy of Mouseville"). I am not sure why the name Mouseville was used instead of Topolinia: maybe the author regarded it as a different city?

I have the story and just read it since you mentioned it. It takes place in Mouseville of Alabama in 1931. I guess the creators wanted to depict the Alabama of that time. I searched for some photographs of the state during that period, and they match the art of the story. The page of the second part you see on Inducks, is the New York of the same period. I guess they preferred to replace "Topolinia" with a more generic "Mouseville" that helped them more for the purpose of the story.

It features "bad boy" Mickey, an honest boy from the south, trying to impress Minnie. Along with his friend Ellsworth, they try to expose Phantom Blot, as he tries to win Minnie's heart, but in the end, he is interested only on her jewels.

[drakeborough]

Apr 4, 2017 9:09:49 GMT phantomduck said:

Apr 4, 2017 8:11:06 GMT drakeborough said:

Ok, so you didn't read it in printed articles but in online articles. And now that I think about it, I remember reading both articles you linked.

Yes, it's really difficult to find English printed articles on those subjects. So we need to be extra careful when we read about them online, because it might lead in examples such as that one I took for granted.

Regardless of English printed articles, it seems a more general problem: Disney comics fandom has several areas that still need reasearch.

Apr 4, 2017 9:09:49 GMT phantomduck said:

Apr 4, 2017 8:11:06 GMT drakeborough said:

In this case, their mistake is that Maurice never said that "Topolino imperatore della Calidornia" is the first mention of Topolinia.

I think the keyword here is "feature". I haven't read the Maurice's source to know, but I guess it could say something along the lines "Topolinia was mentioned earlier, but the first time it was depicted as a place with actual origin, was Topolino imperatore della Calidornia". Or maybe something like that.

When I said that Maurice never said that I was referring to this Maurice article you linked.

Apr 4, 2017 9:09:49 GMT phantomduck said:

Apr 4, 2017 8:11:06 GMT drakeborough said:

I'll close the message with two pieces of trivia:

*This 2001 Italian story takes place when Mickey was a boy and is titled "Topolino, ragazzaccio di Mouseville" ("Mickey Mouse, bad boy of Mouseville"). I am not sure why the name Mouseville was used instead of Topolinia: maybe the author regarded it as a different city?

I have the story and just read it since you mentioned it. It takes place in Mouseville of Alabama in 1931. I guess the creators wanted to depict the Alabama of that time. I searched for some photographs of the state during that period, and they match the art of the story. The page of the second part you see on Inducks, is the New York of the same period. I guess they preferred to replace "Topolinia" with a more generic "Mouseville" that helped them more for the purpose of the story.

It features "bad boy" Mickey, an honest boy from the south, trying to impress Minnie. Along with his friend Ellsworth, they try to expose Phantom Blot, as he tries to win Minnie's heart, but in the end, he is interested only on her jewels.

I also read that story, and I can't say if Mouseville, Alabama was meant to be the classic Mouseville/Mouseton/Topolinia or a different city. The fact that the city is in Alabama rather than in Calisota seems to indicate it was meant to be a different city, but we can't be sure of that: Calisota was created as the state Duckburg is in, and in 2001 it wasn't set in stone yet that Mouseton is also in Calisota. We also have to consider this: even in 2017 an Italian writer looking for the English name of Mickey's city will find many mentions of Mouseton, but few mentions of Mouseville, so we can imagine how little sources were available in 2001 about Mouseville. Maybe the writer thought he was inventing a new name and didn't realize there was a Mouseville already. The situation reminds me of "Duckburg" being use twice in Italian stories instead of its Italian equivalent Paperopoli: in this 1968 story Duckburg is said to be the old name of Paperopoli, which may be fine as an inside-joke, but in this 2014 story Paperopoli and Duckburg are said to be two different cities existing at the same time, and I don't like that.

By the way, "Topolino, ragazzaccio di Mouseville" ignored many established facts in the mouse continuity: for example, in that story Mickey already knows Ellsworth before meeting Goofy.