Elroy, Ellsworth, Pluto, Goofy, what's an animal and what's a person

[Orora]

Ah, Ellsworth. He used to be have a lot of France-exclusive stories, mostly 1-page gags on the back of "Le Journal de Mickey". Really fond memories.

Yes, his name in French is "Genius".

But for many years, he has completely disappeared from the magazine... and this is another reason why I don't read it anymore.

[hex]

Fun fact:
A lot of the French one-pagers with Ellsworth (and other French stories too) was printed in the British series The Disney Weekly and Disney's Planet!. There the translation actually kept the French name Genius.

[Scrooge MacDuck]

Jun 24, 2017 13:19:40 GMT Orora said:

Ah, Ellsworth. He used to be have a lot of France-exclusive stories, mostly 1-page gags on the back of "Le Journal de Mickey". Really fond memories.

Yes, his name in French is "Genius".

But for many years, he has completely disappeared from the magazine... and this is another reason why I don't read it anymore.

Notably, this French Ellsworth was much closer in design (and sometimes personality) to Ellroy.

[drakeborough]

I dislike the characters of Ellsworth and Ellroy because, in my opinion, there should be a clear distinction between anthropomorphic animals (i.e., humans drawn with animal features) and real animals, and there should be no hybrids.

[Baar Baar Jinx]

Jun 24, 2017 18:30:36 GMT drakeborough said:

I dislike the characters of Ellsworth and Ellroy because, in my opinion, there should be a clear distinction between anthropomorphic animals (i.e., humans drawn with animal features) and real animals, and there should be no hybrids.

I agree with you there. I have the same problem with Chip 'N Dale in Duck stories.
And speaking of anthropomorphic conundrums (and at this point we really should be starting a separate thread), there's a (probably S-coded) Al Hubbard-drawn story where Fethry is trying to convince Donald to go duck-hunting with him. It's bizarre in many ways, because (a) Donald actually gets offended that Fethry wants to hunt ducks, as if he himself is a duck (rather than a man whose last name is Duck) and (b) there are actually quasi-anthropomorphic ducks in the story that speak to each other, but swim in the lake and are unclothed, and clearly are not surprised that more human-like ducks (Donald and Fethry) are trying to murder them. This story set off an entire discussion on degrees of anthropomorphism on the DCF.  

[drakeborough]

Jun 24, 2017 19:39:39 GMT Baar Baar Jinx said:

Jun 24, 2017 18:30:36 GMT drakeborough said:

I dislike the characters of Ellsworth and Ellroy because, in my opinion, there should be a clear distinction between anthropomorphic animals (i.e., humans drawn with animal features) and real animals, and there should be no hybrids.

I agree with you there. I have the same problem with Chip 'N Dale in Duck stories.

I am not the biggest Chip 'N Dale fan, so I ask: are they ever shown talking to Donald, or do they only talk beween themselves? Because if it's the latter, it may be one of those examples of animals talking between themselves, with balloons providing the translation in a human language so that the reader can understand them.

Jun 24, 2017 19:39:39 GMT Baar Baar Jinx said:

And speaking of anthropomorphic conundrums (and at this point we really should be starting a separate thread), there's a (probably S-coded) Al Hubbard-drawn story where Fethry is trying to convince Donald to go duck-hunting with him. It's bizarre in many ways, because (a) Donald actually gets offended that Fethry wants to hunt ducks, as if he himself is a duck (rather than a man whose last name is Duck) and (b) there are actually quasi-anthropomorphic ducks in the story that speak to each other, but swim in the lake and are unclothed, and clearly are not surprised that more human-like ducks (Donald and Fethry) are trying to murder them. This story set off an entire discussion on degrees of anthropomorphism on the DCF.

I have no problems in Fethry wanting to go duck-hunting (since like you I consider them to be humans whose last name just happens to be Duck), but I have problems in Donald being offended by that, since he shouldn't be portrayed as really being a duck. I think there were also other duck-hunting stories prior to that.

I also have no problems in Minnie being scared by seeing a (real) mouse, as it happened in a Gottfredson story: things like that happen all the time when writers know what they are doing. When they don't know it, however, we have nonsense like Donald being offended in the example above, or a Donald lookalike having two real ducks as parents in a Guido Martina parody story, and similar examples.

[Scrooge MacDuck]

Jun 24, 2017 21:11:15 GMT drakeborough said:

Jun 24, 2017 19:39:39 GMT Baar Baar Jinx said:

And speaking of anthropomorphic conundrums (and at this point we really should be starting a separate thread), there's a (probably S-coded) Al Hubbard-drawn story where Fethry is trying to convince Donald to go duck-hunting with him. It's bizarre in many ways, because (a) Donald actually gets offended that Fethry wants to hunt ducks, as if he himself is a duck (rather than a man whose last name is Duck) and (b) there are actually quasi-anthropomorphic ducks in the story that speak to each other, but swim in the lake and are unclothed, and clearly are not surprised that more human-like ducks (Donald and Fethry) are trying to murder them. This story set off an entire discussion on degrees of anthropomorphism on the DCF.

I have no problems in Fethry wanting to go duck-hunting (since like you I consider them to be humans whose last name just happens to be Duck), but I have problems in Donald being offended by that, since he shouldn't be portrayed as really being a duck. I think there were also other duck-hunting stories prior to that.

I also have no problems in Minnie being scared by seeing a (real) mouse, as it happened in a Gottfredson story: things like that happen all the time when writers know what they are doing. When they don't know it, however, we have nonsense like Donald being offended in the example above, or a Donald lookalike having two real ducks as parents in a Guido Martina parody story, and similar examples.

My headcanon is that Donald Duck and Co. are an evolved form of ducks, that are to normal ducks what we are to lemurs; as a result, some ducks might get iffy about eating their animalistic relatives, even though most wouldn't. However, I am absolutely siding with you on the fact that said animalistic ducks shouldn't be talking animals themselves, which makes no sense whatsoever.

[drakeborough]

Jun 24, 2017 21:15:44 GMT Scrooge MacDuck said:

My headcanon is that Donald Duck and Co. are an evolved form of ducks, that are to normal ducks what we are to lemurs; as a result, some ducks might get iffy about eating their animalistic relatives, even though most wouldn't.

I really can't image Donald as actually being a duck, albeit evolved, but to each his own headon.

Jun 24, 2017 21:15:44 GMT Scrooge MacDuck said:

However, I am absolutely siding with you on the fact that said animalistic ducks shouldn't be talking animals themselves, which makes no sense whatsoever.

Indeed, it really makes no sense.

[Monkey_Feyerabend]

In Kinney-Hubbard's stories featuring Donald and Fethry animals can speak, but only to each other. They cannot talk to the humans (in the sense of anthropomorphic characters). So there is no real contradiction.
By the way, some fifteen years before the story by Kinney and Hubbard that Baar Baar mentioned, Carl Barks was the first to display the paradox of Donald having chills behind his spine for the idea of duck hunting (in a famous sequence of the gilded man). It is a way to get a laugh from the reader. Humor comics, you know, that's the job.

Anyhow, Donald is not just a man with last name Duck. He is a man with the body of a duck and the last name Duck. That should give him some more or less conscious problem with killing non-humans ducks (even if I guess it is morally ok in Disney universe to do that).

As concerns Ellsworth, I like the idea of hybrid characters. It would be cool to develop that further! Maybe representing hybrid persons as a discriminated group of people, and social stuff like that. Unfortunately that cannot be done in modern Disney comics. 

[Monkey_Feyerabend]

Jun 24, 2017 21:11:15 GMT drakeborough said:

Jun 24, 2017 19:39:39 GMT Baar Baar Jinx said:

I also have no problems in Minnie being scared by seeing a (real) mouse, as it happened in a Gottfredson story: things like that happen all the time when writers know what they are doing. When they don't know it, however, we have nonsense like Donald being offended in the example above, or a Donald lookalike having two real ducks as parents in a Guido Martina parody story, and similar examples.

I just named you a famous story by Barks doing that. Would you say that Barks did not know what he was doing?

And I think that even Gottfredson is being ironical, or playing with the meta-level, when shows Minnie afraid of a mouse. 

[Baar Baar Jinx]

The story in question is, "The Retriever".

There's a brilliant analysis of its horrific, multilayered implications in this blog post.

And I agree that we shouldn't really be seeing non-anthropomorphic animals talk among themselves. But there are several gray areas. What about when we have panels where Pluto's thoughts are displayed (for example, "Mickey's really mad this time, thinks Pluto"?) Where does that fall?

Also, Chip N' Dale talk to Donald in several Duck stories. I am, of course, not going to talk about the cartoons. 

[drakeborough]

Jun 24, 2017 21:23:12 GMT Monkey_Feyerabend said:

In Kinney-Hubbard's stories featuring Donald and Fethry animals can speak, but only to each other. They cannot talk to the humans (in the sense of anthropomorphic characters). So there is no real contradiction.

That's what I hoped. I have no problems in animals talking to each others, and I even think it happened in some Barks stories.

Jun 24, 2017 21:23:12 GMT Monkey_Feyerabend said:

By the way, some fifteen years before the story by Kinney and Hubbard that Baar Baar mentioned, Carl Barks was the first to display the paradox of Donald having chills behind his spine for the idea of duck hunting (in a famous sequence of the gilded man). It is a way to get a laugh from the reader. Humor comics, you know, that's the job.

If I remember correctly, it wasn't a sequence but a 1-panel scene with Donald looking at stuffed ducks. It wasn't a full scene of Donald having issues with the idea of duck hunting. In his 25 years of activity, Barks was very careful to avoid mixing anthropomorphic animals and real animals, and that's a good thing.

Jun 24, 2017 21:23:12 GMT Monkey_Feyerabend said:

Anyhow, Donald is not just a man with last name Duck. He is a man with the body of a duck and the last name Duck. That should give him some more or less conscious problem with killing non-humans ducks (even if I guess it is morally ok in Disney universe to do that).

It depends on the readers' (and auhtors') perception. Many people, including myself, regard Donald as being an actual human being who just happens to be drawn charicaturally with some animal features. Or, to put in another way, the comics tell the story of humans through a lens that gives people animal features (just like Simpsons stories are told through a lens that gives people yellow faces). That's why Teddy Roosevelt and other historical characters have round black noses.

 I don't think Donald should have objections to go duck hunting, and that's why I like stories or gag strips (whose titles I can't remember now) in which he goes duck hunting and regards it as a normal thing to do.

Jun 24, 2017 21:23:12 GMT Monkey_Feyerabend said:

As concerns Ellsworth, I like the idea of hybrid characters. It would be cool to develop that further! Maybe representing hybrid persons as a discriminated group of people, and social stuff like that. Unfortunately that cannot be done in modern Disney comics. 

I don't see what's cool about hybrid characters, but I am glad that the idea you mentioned cannot be done in modern Disney comics.

[The KKM]

Moved this stuff from the BR comics thread.

[Scrooge MacDuck]

Jun 24, 2017 21:36:33 GMT Baar Baar Jinx said:

Also, Chip N' Dale talk to Donald in several Duck stories. I am, of course, not going to talk about the cartoons. 

I always thought of Chip and Dale as anthropomorphic chipmunks, not animals — in the same sense as Gus and Jacq. 

[Scrooge MacDuck]

Jun 24, 2017 21:41:12 GMT drakeborough said:

Jun 24, 2017 21:23:12 GMT Monkey_Feyerabend said:

In Kinney-Hubbard's stories featuring Donald and Fethry animals can speak, but only to each other. They cannot talk to the humans (in the sense of anthropomorphic characters). So there is no real contradiction.

That's what I hoped. I have no problems in animals talking to each others, and I even think it happened in some Barks stories.

I do think there is a contradiction of sorts, though, in the sense that such a world plain doesn't make sense. As much as I love The Aristocats or 101 Dalmatians, those are worlds that absolutely could not exist. Even if they can only talk to each other, how could the fact that all these creatures are sapient have flown right over the humans' (or "pseudo-humans" in Disney comics)' heads? And you'd think that at some point, the animals would try to reach out to the humans somehow., or simply started setting up some kind of autonomous civilization with technology and such that the humans should, by all means, notice. (See Animal Farm for further information.) And in a world where they don't, the idea that all these sapient chickens are being slaughtered and so on is just plain depressing.