Worth noting that according to at least one story, Peg-Leg Pete's true full name is Percy P. Percival or Percival Pete, which is not without issues if one takes this Percival to be his brother.
I double-checked Percival's story, and his English name is Blackstone P. Percival. He refers to Pete as "Black Peter". Later, Pete's full name is indeed revealed to be Percy P. Percival (I assume the P is short for Peter.)
After re-checking the story, did you find that Blackstone is indeed Pete's brother or just a generic relative?
No matter what I say or do, know that Jesus loves you.
Clarabelle has a brother named Clovis, who is the father of her nieces Clroinde and Cloberte. No idea what story (presumably Italian) they’re from, but a few images of the characters can be seen here: www.donaldisme.dk/Goofytree.pdf
Neighbor Jones has two sisters (INDUCKS counts them as the same character, but they aren’t) One who looks a lot like a female version of him: inducks.org/story.php?c=D+2010-113 And another one who is skinny and has curlers in her hair: inducks.org/story.php?c=D+97082
Thanks for all of this great info! I had no idea about Clovis or about Jones's sisters, though I had planned to write about Clarabelle Cow's and Horace Horsecollar's potential siblings, opting not to due to lack of information. I might write later about a headcanon/theory I have about Clarabelle's and Horace's siblings after doing some more research.
No matter what I say or do, know that Jesus loves you.
I double-checked Percival's story, and his English name is Blackstone P. Percival. He refers to Pete as "Black Peter". Later, Pete's full name is indeed revealed to be Percy P. Percival (I assume the P is short for Peter.)
After re-checking the story, did you find that Blackstone is indeed Pete's brother or just a generic relative?
I've checked, myself, and it seems that Blackstone is not Pete's brother - he's only ever referred to as his relative, with no specifics given.
I tend to think of Cartoon-Donald and Comics-Donald as separate characters anyway, but even with that stipulation, I've always looked at the "Donald's Diary" short as a self-contained "imaginary" tale, with no consequence outside itself; a "costumed" story if you will, with Donald and Daisy being actors playing characters (although confusingly with the same names as themselves). The dulcet-toned narrator and Donald joining the Foreign Legion at the end add to this impression. Thus, HD&L are actors here as well, portraying Daisy's brothers. and Daisy's family structure as seen here does not reflect what it is in actuality. Using this short's designs for Daisy's parents is probably okay, if only because no competing versions exist (well her father anyway, never did like the Whistler's Mother-inspired design for her mother).
I tend to think of Cartoon-Donald and Comics-Donald as separate characters anyway, but even with that stipulation, I've always looked at the "Donald's Diary" short as a self-contained "imaginary" tale, with no consequence outside itself; a "costumed" story if you will, with Donald and Daisy being actors playing characters (although confusingly with the same names as themselves). The dulcet-toned narrator and Donald joining the Foreign Legion at the end add to this impression. Thus, HD&L are actors here as well, portraying Daisy's brothers. and Daisy's family structure as seen here does not reflect what it is in actuality. Using this short's designs for Daisy's parents is probably okay, if only because no competing versions exist (well her father anyway, never did like the Whistler's Mother-inspired design for her mother).
We may have been shown Daisy's mother by Barks in the 1949 story about Gladstone's love letters. The older woman that happened to be home at Daisy's house, could have been her mother, just visiting. Daisy shouldn't be wealthy enough to afford a live-in maid. She could have been Daisy's aunt (a DIFFERENT one from her Aunt Druisilla. But, I prefer to think she was Daisy's mother.
We may have been shown Daisy's mother by Barks in the 1949 story about Gladstone's love letters. The older woman that happened to be home at Daisy's house, could have been her mother, just visiting. Daisy shouldn't be wealthy enough to afford a live-in maid. She could have been Daisy's aunt (a DIFFERENT one from her Aunt Druisilla. But, I prefer to think she was Daisy's mother.
Yes, I think of that character as Daisy's mother as well. It fits nicely.
As an aside, Angones has clarified that Daisy will *not* be HD&L's father's sister, as Rosa has suggested (because he wanted to justify HD&L's referring to Daisy as "Aunt" although it appears they never did that in any Barks stories) in DuckTales '17.
We may have been shown Daisy's mother by Barks in the 1949 story about Gladstone's love letters. The older woman that happened to be home at Daisy's house, could have been her mother, just visiting. Daisy shouldn't be wealthy enough to afford a live-in maid. She could have been Daisy's aunt (a DIFFERENT one from her Aunt Druisilla. But, I prefer to think she was Daisy's mother.
Yes, I think of that character as Daisy's mother as well. It fits nicely.
As an aside, Angones has clarified that Daisy will *not* be HD&L's father's sister, as Rosa has suggested (because he wanted to justify HD&L's referring to Daisy as "Aunt" although it appears they never did that in any Barks stories) in DuckTales '17.
I agree with Angones' decision. HD&L could call Daisy "Aunt" because she is almost Donald's "wife", as she is more or less a 10 years' plus "ladyfriend", almost a "common law marriage" by the way they act, despite their not living together all the time. She is more or less a "Duck Family" member, by default. They call her "Auntie" as a term of endearment and respect, as children often do to their parents' best friends, or non-blood Godparents.. At least lots of families I knew, both in Canada and The Netherlands back during the 1940s and 1950s, when I was young. People don't do that so much anymore, at least in USA. Several families I know in The Netherlands still do that, even today.
People don't do that so much anymore, at least in USA. Several families I know in The Netherlands still do that, even today.
Yes, it does seem unusual in American culture. HD&L don't refer to Daisy as "Aunt" in the work of Barks, Van Horn, or even Rosa himself AFAIK (to name a few prominent American authors), although it was discussed on another thread that they occasionally do in Taliaferro strips.
I tend to think of Cartoon-Donald and Comics-Donald as separate characters anyway, but even with that stipulation, I've always looked at the "Donald's Diary" short as a self-contained "imaginary" tale, with no consequence outside itself; a "costumed" story if you will, with Donald and Daisy being actors playing characters (although confusingly with the same names as themselves). The dulcet-toned narrator and Donald joining the Foreign Legion at the end add to this impression. Thus, HD&L are actors here as well, portraying Daisy's brothers. and Daisy's family structure as seen here does not reflect what it is in actuality. Using this short's designs for Daisy's parents is probably okay, if only because no competing versions exist (well her father anyway, never did like the Whistler's Mother-inspired design for her mother).
On its own, Donald's Diary does feel a little bit out there, but, to me, its place in canon is validated by the This Is Your Life, Donald Duck television special which plays the short as the characters read Donald's actual diary. For me, that's enough evidence to support it being at least semi-canonical. The appearance of portraits of Daisy's parents in The Danger Caves which greatly resemble the designs seen in Donald's Diary add even more support to my stance, at least in the way I view it.
However, while I do view it as technically canonical, I'm willing to believe that Donald's Diary isn't a wholly accurate source. I wrote the following in my personal notes a few months back, "I headcanon that 'Donald's Diary' portrays Donald's perception of his romantic relationship with Daisy after he broke up with her, i.e., what we see is the way he saw it retrospectively after their break-up portrayed in the short." The "break-up" mentioned is Donald's running away to join the Foreign Legion at the end of the short. In other words, I believe that most of the things which happened in the short did indeed happen, but not necessarily in the way we see them. Daisy's father probably isn't as wacky as he seems, Daisy's mother is probably less Whistler's Mother-esque, Daisy's brothers are probably less of hooligans, Daisy probably hasn't dated as many guys as the short implies, and so on and so forth with all of these being exaggerations by a post-break-up Donald.
No matter what I say or do, know that Jesus loves you.
Post by TheMidgetMoose on Feb 8, 2020 22:06:01 GMT
Clarabelle Cow & Horace Horsecollar I'm grouping these two together because I don't really have much to say about Horace's siblings that my writings on Clarabelle's siblings don't already cover, though I do have some things to say about my theories about Horace's possible siblings.
First of all, let me thank Scroogerello for informing me about the first character I will write about, Clovis (?). Clovis is Clarabelle Cow's brother and is apparently the father of her nieces Clorinde and Cloberte. I know nothing about this fellow and would love to hear from anyone who does know about him. I'm not even sure which story he comes from, but this is his picture: Clovis isn't the only sibling of Clarabelle that the Internet is aware of. I've also seen a few sites and fanmade trees mentioning a certain Sarabelle Cow (?), Clarabelle's sister apparently. She can be seen on this tree and this tree and is mentioned on both the Mickey Mouse Athletics site and the Disney Wiki. Most of these sources agree that Sarabelle debuted "in the quarterly children's activity book, 'Mickey Mouse Magazine'". Does anyone know which issue of the Mickey Mouse Magazine she appeared in? Did she make a physical appearance, or was she just mentioned?
Anyways, the Disney Wiki, Mickey Mouse Athletics, and the explanatory table to one of the trees I linked to all make the claim that Sarabelle looks identical to Clarabelle except she wears a blonde wig. It is also stated that she may have appeared in the Mickey Mouse Club theme song and in This Is Your Life, Donald Duck (cartoon). Now, the Mickey Mouse Club theme does indeed feature a Clarabelle-lookalike who I guess could be Clarabelle's sister. Here's an image to prove it:
However, she is not wearing a blonde wig. Furthermore, here is the blonde cow seen in This Is Your Life, Donald Duck:
I am 99% sure that this cow is Clarabelle herself, not some elusive sister of hers. Why? Well, this scene is at the end of the This Is Your Life, Donald Duck special, but it is not Clarabelle's only appearance in the cartoon. She had previously appeared in a segment of the cartoon containing footage from Mickey's Amateurs. Do you know what Clarabelle looked like in Mickey's Amateurs? See for yourself:
That's right, she wore a blonde wig. Now could this be an early appearance of Sarabelle? No. This character is introduced to the in-universe audience by Mickey Mouse as one of the "two Claras --- Cluck and Belle." I feel pretty confident that the blonde-haired cow at the end of This Is Your Life, Donald Duck was supposed to be a reference to the blonde Clarabelle of Mickey's Amateurs. Now could Sarabelle still be the cow seen in the Mickey Mouse Club? I suppose so, though I would like to know more about Sarabelle in general. That some of the sources for her existence mention the This Is Your Life, Donald Duck thing and use what appears to be an image of Clarabelle from that special to represent her makes me skeptical of all information provided by them.
Anyways, while I do disagree with some of the information floating around about Sarabelle and am skeptical about her existing at all, I feel it's worth mentioning that Mickey Mouse Club isn't the first time a Clarabelle lookalike appeared onscreen with her doppelganger. Actually, Clarabelle lookalikes have been around for almost as long as Clarabelle herself. The reason for this, I suspect, is a desire from the Walt Disney Studios to cut down on costs for their shorts, thus causing them to reuse character models, with two characters with the exact some model sometimes appearing in the same frame. The earliest instance of Clarabelle and a character with the exact same appearance of her is in The Birthday Party in 1931. See the picture below. As you can see, nearly every character in this short has a doppelganger appearing with them. I'm sure this made since from a cost-cutting perspective, but it looks pretty surreal and has raises some questions about what this means in-universe. Both Clarabelle and Horace have lookalikes here. Are these "doubles" possibly the siblings of the more well-known characters? Does Horace have an unnamed lookalike brother (?)?
A pair which consists of one Clarabelle lookalike and one Horace lookalike also appear in On Ice (1935). See the picture below, where Clarabelle and Horace are in the foreground but then, just behind them, are a couple of mammals that look exactly like them. Once again, I imagine that the real-world explanation for this weirdness is pretty straightforward, with that explanation likely being that Walt Disney and co. reused models and animation to save money. In-universe, however, I wonder if these examples can be used as evidence that both Horace and Clarabelle have lookalike siblings. Does anyone think this is a possibility? Should we read into the appearance of Horace and Clarabelle clones, or should we just assume that the clones actually look much different in-universe and are totally unrelated to Horace and Clarabelle?
If you chose the former, then I suppose we should come up with names for these siblings. We already have a name suggested for Clarabelle's doppelganger, that name being "Sarabelle", a name that apparently originates from the Mickey Mouse Magazine, though I'd love for someone to confirm that. What about Horace's lookalike? May I put forward "Orace" as a potential name for him? Why, well there already is a character named Orace (?). Orace is not a Disney character but is creation of Ub Iwerks for his Flip the Frog series. Here he is with Flip and another character whose name I don't know:
Now I know very little about Flip the Frog, so I can tell you very little about Orace. I don't even know for sure which cartoon refers to him as "Orace". At any rate, he plays a role very similar to the role Horace played in his earliest animated appearances. He's a semi-anthropomorphic horse, though I believe Orace is actually referred to as a mule, capable of walking on both two legs and four legs who characters will often ride or get them to pull carriages and wagons as if they were just ordinary, non-anthropomorphic horses. Could Orace, despite being a non-Disney character, possibly be Horace's brother and the Horace lookalike seen in shorts like The Birthday Party and On Ice?
Alternatively, I'd like to suggest Carolyn Cow (?) and Henry Horse (?) (presumably short for Henry Horsecollar) as potential names for Clarabelle and Horace's siblings. These names appear in The Adventures of Mickey Mouse Vol 1., the same storybook probably most well-known for including a "Donald Duck" character in 1931, 3 years before Donald Duck appeared in The Wise Little Hen. I'm not sure if the names originated in that storybook. Anyways, the illustrations which depict Carolyn and Henry are clearly of Clarabelle and Horace. In other words, Carolyn Cow and Henry Horse seem to be nothing more than early names for Clarabelle Cow and Horace Horsecollar, but maybe, just maybe, we could headcanon that Carolyn and Henry are actually lookalike siblings of Clarabelle and Horace, despite the fact that Clarabelle is Carolyn and Henry is Horace in our real-world.
What do you think? Do you know anything about Clovis or Sarabelle's appearances? Do you think the Horace and Clarabelle clones could be siblings in-universe? What names do you prefer for Horace and Clarabelle's siblings?
Post by Scrooge MacDuck on Feb 8, 2020 23:03:33 GMT
As it happens, having just watched Preston Sturges' The Palm Beach Story, I am inordinately inclined towards accepting that Horace and Clarabelle do indeed each have a twin sibling and this is never mentioned. Not sure whether Clarabelle's twin would indeed be Sarabelle, mind. That rather depends on what the truth about the Sarabelle who actually appeared in Mickey Mouse Magazine was.
Very interesting, about this Orace. Were he not a mule, I'd be very inclined to believe that he's just a case of ol'Ub Iwerks porting over a character from his Disney work thanks to the loopiness of early copyright law when it came to cartoon characters, in quite the same way that Peg-Leg Pete kept showing up where he oughtn't. Iwerks was no stranger to this, having reused his Silly Symphony Skeleton characters in the non-Disney cartoon Skeleton Frolics, among other things. And as I'll get to in a moment, in the early days, secondary characters' names were highly variable, and their spelling even moreso; I'm not so sure that Iwerks would have thought "Horace" and "Orace" needed to be two different characters at all. After all, that line you quote from Mickey's Amateurs does rely on Clarabelle's name being spelled "Clara Belle"…
Alternatively, I'd like to suggest Carolyn Cow (?) and Henry Horse (?) (presumably short for Henry Horsecollar) as potential names for Clarabelle and Horace's siblings. These names appear in The Adventures of Mickey Mouse Vol 1., the same storybook probably most well-known for including a "Donald Duck" character in 1931, 3 years before Donald Duck appeared in The Wise Little Hen. I'm not sure if the names originated in that storybook. Anyways, the illustrations which depict Carolyn and Henry are clearly of Clarabelle and Horace. In other words, Carolyn Cow and Henry Horse seem to be nothing more than early names for Clarabelle Cow and Horace Horsecollar, but maybe, just maybe, we could headcanon that Carolyn and Henry are actually lookalike siblings of Clarabelle and Horace, despite the fact that Clarabelle is Carolyn and Henry is Horace in our real-world.
well, I'd argue against Carolyn Cow, at any rate, because Carolyn/Caroline Cow is already the name of a character. As best I can deivine, in the early days, "Clarabelle" and "Carolyn" were recurring, alternative names for "that recurring Cow character design", but eventually things stabilized to where the clothed anthropomorphic version was Clarabelle, and the four-legged barnyard variation on the same design was Carolyn.
As for Henry Horse for Horace's brother, I dunno. You still run into the issue of the different last name even then. Though of course, Horace Horsecollar is occasionally called Horace Horse even now.
…Oh, and also, what the Shakespeare is Mickey Mouse Athletics?
As it happens, having just watched Preston Sturges' The Palm Beach Story, I am inordinately inclined towards accepting that Horace and Clarabelle do indeed each have a twin sibling and this is never mentioned. Not sure whether Clarabelle's twin would indeed be Sarabelle, mind. That rather depends on what the truth about the Sarabelle who actually appeared in Mickey Mouse Magazine was.
Very interesting, about this Orace. Were he not a mule, I'd be very inclined to believe that he's just a case of ol'Ub Iwerks porting over a character from his Disney work thanks to the loopiness of early copyright law when it came to cartoon characters, in quite the same way that Peg-Leg Pete kept showing up where he oughtn't. Iwerks was no stranger to this, having reused his Silly Symphony Skeleton characters in the non-Disney cartoon Skeleton Frolics, among other things. And as I'll get to in a moment, in the early days, secondary characters' names were highly variable, and their spelling even moreso; I'm not so sure that Iwerks would have thought "Horace" and "Orace" needed to be two different characters at all. After all, that line you quote from Mickey's Amateurs does rely on Clarabelle's name being spelled "Clara Belle"…
Alternatively, I'd like to suggest Carolyn Cow (?) and Henry Horse (?) (presumably short for Henry Horsecollar) as potential names for Clarabelle and Horace's siblings. These names appear in The Adventures of Mickey Mouse Vol 1., the same storybook probably most well-known for including a "Donald Duck" character in 1931, 3 years before Donald Duck appeared in The Wise Little Hen. I'm not sure if the names originated in that storybook. Anyways, the illustrations which depict Carolyn and Henry are clearly of Clarabelle and Horace. In other words, Carolyn Cow and Henry Horse seem to be nothing more than early names for Clarabelle Cow and Horace Horsecollar, but maybe, just maybe, we could headcanon that Carolyn and Henry are actually lookalike siblings of Clarabelle and Horace, despite the fact that Clarabelle is Carolyn and Henry is Horace in our real-world.
well, I'd argue against Carolyn Cow, at any rate, because Carolyn/Caroline Cow is already the name of a character. As best I can deivine, in the early days, "Clarabelle" and "Carolyn" were recurring, alternative names for "that recurring Cow character design", but eventually things stabilized to where the clothed anthropomorphic version was Clarabelle, and the four-legged barnyard variation on the same design was Carolyn.
As for Henry Horse for Horace's brother, I dunno. You still run into the issue of the different last name even then. Though of course, Horace Horsecollar is occasionally called Horace Horse even now.
…Oh, and also, what the Shakespeare is Mickey Mouse Athletics?
Honestly, I don't find it wholly impossible that Horace and Orace are the same character, despite the apparent "mule" contradiction. A mule is a horse/donkey cross. Maybe Horace has some donkey ancestry but typically identifies as a horse.
Do you (or anyone, really) know at what point the distinction between Carolyn and Clarabelle became clear?
You can read more about Mickey Mouse Athletics here on this thread, which you responded to actually. I'm still not sure what exactly it is, but that thread is where I learned about it.
No matter what I say or do, know that Jesus loves you.
Post by swedishforesteagle on Feb 9, 2020 0:05:21 GMT
I have a strong memory of one issue of some comic having a story about one of Goofy's brothers/cousins (or another such relative) visit him as Mickey was tagging along. It conveyed a character that Goofy apparently was quite envious of because each time he'd visit he'd tell him of all his adventures and travels.
If I want to continue to recall correctly, there was also a resolution ending up showing that he was a bit fraudulent and that a lot of his claimed deeds were photo-edits and on-set shots.
I've tried using inducks to sniff them out, although with little success so far.
Swedish translations of everything until the day I die!
I have a strong memory of one issue of some comic having a story about one of Goofy's brothers/cousins (or another such relative) visit him as Mickey was tagging along. It conveyed a character that Goofy apparently was quite envious of because each time he'd visit he'd tell him of all his adventures and travels.
If I want to continue to recall correctly, there was also a resolution ending up showing that he was a bit fraudulent and that a lot of his claimed deeds were photo-edits and on-set shots.
I've tried using inducks to sniff them out, although with little success so far.
Very interesting, especially if it's a brother. The closest thing I can find on INDUCKS is this. The INDUCKS scan is too small for me to actually read the story, but it mostly fits your description as far as I can tell. The character in this story is a cousin according to the INDUCKS description.
No matter what I say or do, know that Jesus loves you.
You can read more about Mickey Mouse Athletics here on this thread, which you responded to actually. I'm still not sure what exactly it is, but that thread is where I learned about it.
Oh, yes, I remember. I was just restating my ongoing bafflement at this thing's sheer existence.
