Weekly Discussion Thread #1

[alquackskey]

The Feathery Society Weekly Discussion Thread

Week 1

Main Subject

The Last of the Clan McDuck - Don Rosa (1992)

I.N.D.U.C.K.S Link (D 91308)

The first chapter of Don Rosa's critically acclaimed series, 'The Life and Times of Scrooge McDuck'.

This chapter serves as an origin story for Scrooge's Number One Dime; we see his humble beginnings in Scotland, and get a look at his relationship with his family: his father (Fergus), his mother (Downy), his younger sisters (Matilda and Hortense) and his uncle (Jake).

Scrooge works as a shoeshine boy - after an especially difficult job on a ditchdigger's boots, he finds out that he was given an American dime instead of proper payment.

Rather than be discouraged, this only spurs Scrooge on to work harder; eventually, between some fruitful business ventures and a history-changing encounter with the ghost of Sir Quackly, he comes to the realization that he needs greater opportunities, and heads off to America to seek his fortune.

What would you say are the highlights of this chapter? Are there any moments, panels etc that you think are underappreciated? Perhaps overappreciated?

How do you feel about the story as a 'beginning' for Scrooge McDuck - are there any ideas that you feel could have been handled better? How do you feel about the story as an individual issue, rather than as one of twelve chapters?

What are your thoughts on the other characters? Sir Quackly, Burt, Scrooge's family... is there anyone that you have any thoughts or opinions on, positive or negative?

And, of course, any thoughts not covered here are welcomed and encouraged!

Secondary Subject

Of Ducks and Dimes and Destinies - Don Rosa (1995)

I.N.D.U.C.K.S Link (D 91249)

A different perspective on how Scrooge received his Number One Dime; this story serves as a 'Chapter 0' of 'The Life and Times of Scrooge McDuck'.

In a plot to get her hands on Scrooge's dime, Magica travels back to 1877 and tries to steal it when Scrooge is only a child.

Of course, between Fergus' iron will, Howard Rockerduck's well-intentioned interruptions and the usual comic book shenanigans, the task proves to be more difficult than Magica had anticipated.

In the end, Magica realizes that the dime means nothing without Scrooge, and has to give it to an unconscious Scrooge herself, before being returned to the present.

What are your thoughts on the story? Do you think it was a good addition to the original story, or do you take issue with how it was handled?

How about Magica? What are your thoughts on her scheme? How do you feel about the ending - does it bother you that Magica 'succeeds', only to realize that her plan was doomed to fail from the start?

Does the issue have its merits as its own story, or is it too closely linked to 'Last of the Clan McDuck'? Is this closeness a good thing, or would the story have been better with more elements to stand out on its own?

Cover Art Discussion

           

From left to right: Anders And & Co. #1992B33, Uncle Scrooge #285, Uncle Scrooge #297

Character Discussion

Fergus McDuck and Downy O' Drake

Scrooge's parents.

Fergus and Downy are both integral figures in Scrooge's life - they root him to his family home, and inspire him to stay true to his ideals.

What are your thoughts on the presence of both characters in Rosa's works, and were they utilized properly?

How about other works? Does Fergus' status as the father of Rumpus McFowl in William Van Horn's works contradict how you see the character?

What are some underappreciated elements of these characters? How could the events of 'Life and Times' have turned out differently if they weren't the parents that they were to Scrooge?

Fanon Discussion

How do you feel about the rigidity of Don Rosa's timeline?

One of the most iconic elements of Rosa's work, particularly with 'Life and Times', is the specific timeline it builds for Scrooge McDuck. We have a specific timeframe for his life, beginning in 1867 and leading up to the 'present day' of 1947 onward.

However, some fans find this idea to be too restrictive - taking these timeless characters and, rather than applying cartoon logic, sticking them to a specific time period.

How do you feel? Is this timeline for the better or the worse as far as these stories are concerned?

Should this timeline be considered 'canon', or would it be better for each author to stick to their own version of events?

Is this timeline, perhaps, too restrictive? If it is taken into consideration, should it be held to the technological and social standards of that time period?

Any other thoughts that you have on these issues are more than welcome!

Next week's topics:

Main Subject: The Master of the Mississippi - Don Rosa (1992) [I.N.D.U.C.K.S Link]

Secondary Subjects: The Great Steamboat Race - Carl Barks (1955) [I.N.D.U.C.K.S. Link], The Fantastic River Race - Carl Barks (1957) [I.N.D.U.C.K.S Link]

Character Discussion: Ratchet Gearloose

Fanon Discussion: What are your thoughts on the different generations of Beagle Boys? How do the older ones differ from the newer ones, and how do those differences impact their presence in Scrooge McDuck comics?


(Apologies if this was posted in the wrong forum, I have a few things on so I figured I'd best get it done ASAP - if a new section is created for these discussion threads, I figure that we can either move it there when it's open, or start in the comics section to see how it fares to begin with.)

[That Duckfan]

Do we post in this thread or do we make separate threads for the separate discussions? I would would go for the latter, but I'll kick things off here.

The Last of the Clan McDuck
Oh, I remember what a treat it was to see a story about Scrooge's youth! It took me some time to get used to the design of Young Scrooge, but it's cute and memorable and that's what counts.
If I were to rate this story, it would probably be somewhere in the mid-range of Rosa's work. It's not the most exciting or cleverest adventure, but it doesn't feature any of Rosa's excesses either. The atmosphere makes for a rather somber and dreary beginning, and despite the attention to detail I can never quite shake off the feeling that I'm watching a costume drama rather than a historical setting.
It's not bad as far as origin stories go, but if I were to write my own version, I would be more interesting in exploring Young Scrooge as a character. The story is constructed in a way that Scrooge's is shaped by other McDucks, his dad and Sir Quackly. While it adds to the sense of mythos that Rosa wanted to convey, I think a headstrong wee Scrooge could've taken more agency. When I was little, Fergus' little plot struck me as wise and profound --- in retrospect, it's a miracle things packed out even remotely the way he envisioned it.
Total: 6 or 7 out of 10

Of Ducks and Dimes and Destinies
Rosa is known for his great plot ideas, and this one is excecuted masterfully. It evokes that fantastic "Back to the Future II" spirit by taking familiar events and portraying them from a different angle. It also makes great use of the Scrooge-Magica relationship in both its comedy and its drama.
There's a lot of great visuals in this story, from the melting candle and Matilda's petals. It's also a great spotlight for Fergus.
When it comes to Magica, Rosa isn't my favorite artist (his art is too stiff and she looks more crazy than alluring), but I like his wisecracking characterization of her.
Howard Rockerduck is an interesting character --- I'm not a fan of his phonetic accent, and I wish we had some established Rockerduck parent before this story, but he's fun for the short time he appears. Too bad Rosa didn't grow up with Rockerduck, the resemblance between father and son is a distant one. (He doesn't even wear a bowler hat!)
Total: 8 or 9 out of 10

Reading these comics, I am reminded of how short Egmont stories are! Over in 15 pages, such a shame!

[Matilda]

The Last of the Clan McDuck

What works really well for me: everything that happens in and around Castle McDuck. The beginning with Fergus showing Scrooge the castle and introducing him to some of the history, and especially the core of the story with the ghost of Sir Quackly. I love how this takes off from and dovetails with "The Old Castle's Secret"--even to the extent of the Whiskervilles' nearly discovering the tunnel. I think Byron Erickson was right to tell Rosa not to start the story with pages of McDucks-through-Scottish-history. The parts of that history that are relevant are much better revealed to young Scrooge and us by Sir Quackly. Sir Quackly serves in part as a personification of McDuck Clan history and pride, and it feels right that he would be the one to inspire Scrooge to restore the lost luster to the name McDuck. For me that doesn't mean that Scrooge himself is deprived of agency. It's natural that it would be hard to dream big when one's family is in straitened circumstances. And it's often the case that coming to know more about and have pride in one's ancestors can help a person aspire beyond their current situation. That's what I see happening for Scrooge in the castle. Young Scrooge *does* get to have sole agency in driving the Whiskervilles away (and keeping them from finding the tunnel!), as he both has the idea for the fake ghost--using the peat he has gathered--and implements it on his own.

I like Matilda's "you know how Scroogey is", the visual jokes with Hortense's thumb-sucking, the goodbye scene with Fergus and Jake handing over the heirlooms, Hortense surprising everyone by making words, Scrooge being embarrassed by his mother's hug-and-kiss.

What doesn't work as well for me: the plot point that Fergus sets up Scrooge's encounter with Burt. The part about wanting Scrooge to experience the necessity of hard work was believable. But the whole dime thing doesn't feel convincing to me. First, we haven't seen Scrooge being too trusting. Second, it feels more likely to me that Scrooge, on receiving a "worthless" American dime after so much hard work, would bean Burt with it, as Matilda predicts, or would be angry and disgusted with his new birthday gift and resolve never to shine another shoe, or would even decide that business is all about taking advantage of softies. His conclusion that his life will be filled with tough jobs makes sense. But his conclusion that he'll make his money square seems insufficiently motivated by the event. Third, if the problem is that Scrooge is too trusting, then Fergus must want him to know he can be cheated. Such an odd thing for a parent to set up--you don't really have to arrange for your child to have an occasional experience of getting cheated. And again, Scrooge's conclusion that "there'll always be sharpies" does follow from the experience...but his further decision that he will make it square does not necessarily follow.

In any case, when I first read this--on its very first printing in the USA, when I was in my 30's--this plot point felt contrived as a way to explain why Scrooge got paid with an American dime in Scotland. Having Fergus give him a shoeshine box is fine. But I would have been happier if he had been paid with the dime by someone who had had it from a relative/friend who had gone to America--not cheating him, but "here's a special coin all the way from America" and Scrooge accepting it out of curiosity and thinking "maybe someday I'll go there--no, that's ridiculous, we McDucks don't get to do anything exciting any more"--until Sir Quackly helps him think otherwise. If he did feel cheated by the dime-payer, I'd rather have him get to the pledge to "make his money square" by hearing about Captain Seafoam from his dad and deciding never to be like Swindle McSue.

[Matilda]

Fanon discussion:

Rosa's timeline was utterly necessary to this lifestory project as he conceived it, and it's brilliant and I'm glad he did. I believe I would say this even if I didn't personally also prefer to imagine the "present" of the Duck stories as taking place in the mid-20th century. There's no way Rosa's project could have been done without the story's being tied to history throughout; it's part and parcel of Rosa's research-based way of working. That's true even outside of the personal history of Scrooge: Rosa researched everything. This is a big part of the convincing nature of the stories, their lifelike texture and depth. And while Barks was certainly not committed in the same way to keeping Scrooge fixed in time, it is nonetheless the power of Barks' Klondike backstory that made Scrooge so real and so grounded in history to Rosa.

People who do not want Scrooge to be located in history in this way naturally view Rosa's take as too restrictive. But Rosa could not have done the Scrooge biography in any other way, and I think his Life & Times is a thoroughly enjoyable masterpiece. The very fact that its historical grounding makes it feel more convincing means that it can have the effect of making people feel they should go along with it, I suppose--but the alternative would have been not to have Rosa write a biography. I do not feel that Rosa's L&T should be used as "canon" more broadly. If creators want to go along with it, great; if they don't, that's equally fine. Rosa's L&T did not forestall the Italians from publishing Vitaliano's Tutti i milioni di Paperone series. That's the way it should be, in my opinion. It seems to me that the fans who are bothered by Rosa's restrictive timeline shouldn't really complain about Rosa; their beef is with Egmont, to the extent that Egmont requires creators to accord with Rosa's view of Scrooge's personal history. But even that is not that rigid: Egmont published Van Horn's Rumpus stories and reprints lots of Italian stuff that conflicts with Rosa's world in one way or another, including the Vitaliano series. And Egmont certainly doesn't require that stories of the Ducks' "present" be set in the mid-20th century with mid-20th century technology. I find Korhonen's stories to do a very nice job of filling in parts of the story that Rosa didn't cover, using a lot of Rosa's story and yet showing the freedom to develop a different version of the Scrooge lifestory.

I myself am committed to Rosa's biography and to Scrooge's location in the past. I don't at all think everyone should go along with this. Before Rosa wrote anything there were already parallel universes in Duck comics, such as the universe where Scrooge and Grandma Duck are siblings and the universe where the presumption is that they are not blood relations. I personally enjoy and value the fact that there are all these different takes on the lives of the Ducks. It's one of the most unique things about the multinational, multicultural narrative-making of Disney comics. Is there any other example of such diversity in "official" narratives using common characters? This is So Cool! I feel this at the same time as I construct my own personal headcanon incorporating only stories which I can fit into my largely Barks-through-Rosa timeline and family tree, in which Scrooge and Elvira are not blood relatives and Gideon and Rumpus and a gazillion one-shot relations do not exist.

[alquackskey]

May 27, 2021 21:22:02 GMT That Duckfan said:

Do we post in this thread or do we make separate threads for the separate discussions? I would would go for the latter, but I'll kick things off here.

An interesting question - I think it's best kept in the main thread, but if people feel that's too restrictive, we could broaden it a bit. I'd say, unless it becomes an issue, we should probably keep it to one thread per week.

Main Subject
Honestly, one thing I adore about this issue is the family dynamic. You know that everyone loves each other, but there's a depressing atmosphere in their home that isn't shied away from.
Page 4 alone gives us a lot to work with - Fergus' shame and his desire to give his children something better, Jake's pessimism and his snipe at Fergus' attempts to inspire Scrooge, Downy just trying to keep things together... the adults are certainly not perfect, but you know that they ultimately want what's best for their family.

To an extent, I'd agree with Matilda on the dime situation; I think it works okay, but it's a little bit presumptuous on Fergus' part and hinges a lot on variables that he couldn't really have predicted.
We see that Scrooge is struggling to get business, and that Burt is his first customer. For Scrooge to then spend a half-hour cleaning, only to be cheated in the end... honestly, coupled with his recent feeling of shame in his family, I'd expect it to be extremely demoralizing. I feel like it might have worked a little better if Scrooge had some success first - as Matilda says, Fergus' lesson isn't necessarily a bad one, but it's a little odd to get your child started on hard work and immediately thinking "Hmm, the first thing he'll need is a lesson in being cheated!"
Like, Scrooge has no resistance whatsoever; he just takes it as a lesson, and barely even spares a second thought to how unfair the experience was. No grumbling or griping, he just accepts the lesson immediately.
Still, ultimately, I'm okay with it; while I think it's resolved a little too quickly, it's not impossible to believe or anything.
It's a nice little start for Scrooge - I like the way his sense of business develops; it's mainly used as comedy, but the comedy makes me laugh and it still works in-universe, so it's pretty solid all around.

As for the resolution to the Hound arc... I love Sir Quackly so much.
His appearance is brief, but we learn so much about him from his mannerisms and the way he talks.
He's very quick to temper Scrooge's expectations, and to remind him that there were many McDucks that sullied the family name through unchecked greed. He shows the good and the bad, and lets Scrooge come to his own conclusions on how he should move forward.
Of course, he still steers Scrooge in a specific direction; towards America, to build his fortune. Part of me wonders if it was a test of character - the pride on his face when Scrooge says that he needs to thrash the Whiskervilles first speaks volumes.
And, while the twist of it being Sir Quackly might be a little clichéd, I absolutely adore how it was done. The question dodging, the lack of a shadow - it's all pretty obvious in hindsight, but it threw me for the loop when I first read it! 
I'd love to see more of the Clan McDuck - the banter between them is fun to read. I'll discuss that when we get to it, of course, but it was a great scene in this issue.

The ending scene is a solid ending to the issue; a heartfelt goodbye, but with the hope of something greater in the future.
Scrooge isn't going in with total wonder - he's aware that it could all end up being a waste of time. Still, he looks forward and hopes for the best, knowing that he'll do what he can to make his family and his clan proud.

There's a gag on the second page that I adore - a bird eating a worm, while another comes up to attack it with a club. It communicates the point of Dismal Downs being a place that's 'untamed', but it's still a great laugh that doesn't distract too heavily from the otherwise grim scene.
And, while the Hortense sucking her thumb gags are funny, the one with the horse is my favourite - those four panels are just brilliant.

All in all, it's a solid issue - it suffers a little due to the metanarrative.
A lot of it does feel like Rosa is saying "This needs to be shown here, these members of the clan need to be referenced", but it's done sincerely enough that it's not a huge issue. It's distracting, but not wholly immersion breaking.
Still, the realistic family dynamics (and fantastic family members), the wonderful character of Sir Quackly and the development that Scrooge undergoes all outshine any issues I have with it - it's a great start to Scrooge's journey.


Secondary Subject
I'm not hugely fond of the premise of this one, but Magica makes up for it.
I think that the "Villain somehow playing an integral part in the hero's origins through time travel" plot is usually more trouble than it's worth. Usually, it feels as though the story is giving you a 'nudge-nudge, wink-wink' and telling you that, without the villain's intervention, the hero wouldn't be who they are today, but they don't know that.
It sort of... detracts from the character in a way, I suppose? It's hard to describe, but it never really sits right with me.
Off-hand, the only time I actually liked it was in Duck Dodgers, but that has the advantage of relatively loose continuity, and the fact that it ultimately didn't change anything about the characters because the change was ultimately not a hugely significant one.

Still, taking the story for what it is, it does what it wants to pretty well.
I'd fully agree with That Duckfan on Howard Rockerduck; I really like him as a character here, but the phonetic accent is infuriating to look at. I understand why it was done, but it's really distracting and doesn't really add anything.

The visual gags in this comic are great - like Matilda thinking of the boots while Hortense thinks about her thumb, or Magica's speech being upside down when Fergus takes the dime back, or (my personal favourite) the guy seeing Magica change and immediately emptying his beer bottle. Between gags like those and Magica's antics, the laughs are pretty frequent in this one.

Speaking of Magica, she's amazing in this one.
For one, her antics are great - there's a lot of energy in what she does, and she's a great villain here; she's not a genocidal maniac or anything, but she's spiteful enough to snatch a coin from a child or mock young Scrooge despite having gotten what she wanted. She's the antagonist, no doubt, but it stays in the category of being funny - she's not irredeemably evil or anything.
In fact, despite her actions, it's hard not to feel a little bit of sympathy for her in this one - her plan actually makes a lot of sense (Seeing as magic is often loose in its interpretations), and her realization that it won't work is legitimately pitiable. Obviously, she shouldn't win, but she gets full points for trying!

All in all, it's a bit of a mixed bag for me - I don't really like the premise, but it's handled pretty well for what it is, and the comedy is great.

Cover Art Discussion
The Anders And cover will probably be reused next week, seeing as it's mostly focused on Chapter 2 - I'll save my thoughts on that one til then.
US #285 is a bit of an odd one for me - it's nice, but the horse and armour is a strange thing to focus on. Especially since the armour isn't on fire - maybe to avoid spoilers, but showing the armour on the horse anyway kind of gives it away. It's well drawn, of course, and I like the image of Scrooge reminiscing and the photo of young Scrooge, but the thought bubble doesn't really work for how prominent it is.
US #297, while not very relevant to the story, is a great cover - though I do wonder if Scrooge would be willing to risk getting all of that candle wax on his money 

Character Discussion
Downy doesn't offer much for discussion as a character herself; she's a typical struggling mother figure, and a lot of her impact on Scrooge comes from what he feels and says - we don't get to see her in action too much.
She obviously loves her children, and does what she can for her family - I do wish that she had been given a little more prominence in the way that Fergus was, though.

Fergus is a character I've gone on about at length before.
He may not be the perfect father, but he does everything he can to help his son to prosper. He doesn't do anything unreasonable, but he wants Scrooge to live a good life - to do what he himself wasn't able to.
As is mentioned above, his methods are a little questionable, but his heart is definitely in the right place - and hey, it works.
Fergus is an integral part of Rosa's Scrooge - he's the one person that always had Scrooge's back, no matter what. The person who served as an inspiration to him, who motivated him to keep moving forward, and the person who tethered him to his morality - it's very telling that Scrooge's point of no return (Until he meets Donald, of course) has him ignore what Fergus taught him.
He may not have been able to give Scrooge a lavish lifestyle, but he did everything that he could to keep Scrooge, Matilda and Hortense happy, and on the right path in life.
He's a fantastic father figure, and a very integral part of Scrooge's life.

And I don't want to devolve into Ducktales bashing, but I still can't forgive how terribly they mishandled his character.
Fergus wanted to teach Scrooge self-reliance - to help him to become his own man.
Scrooge had so many opportunities that Fergus didn't, and got to go on all kinds of exciting adventures while the rest of the family stayed in Scotland - Fergus wasn't always happy about that, but he never interfered unless it was necessary, and he fully believed that Scrooge deserved everything that he earned.
The fact that Fergus in DT17 not only hates Scrooge, but claims to have given Scrooge his dime... ugh. It's such a painful, fundamental misunderstanding of the character, and it legitimately bothers me.

Fergus, in Rosa's works, was a flawed man, but a loving parent, and someone who did as much as he could for his children with what he had - and that's what I love about him.

Fanon Discussion
Honestly, Matilda says basically everything I'd think here perfectly. Most of what I could say would just be echoing her sentiments.

I, personally, subscribe to Rosa's timeline - I allow for some flexibility myself (I like the existence of characters like Rumpus - I'm not familiar enough with Gideon to really comment on him, though), but Rosa's canon is typically what I stick with.
That being said, LP's Duck family tree has gotten me to reconsider some of my views - I view Rosa's overall canon as more of a basis, rather than rigid fact; his timeline for Scrooge, I'm pretty happy with, though.

I agree that it's better to have people telling the stories that they want to tell - whether that means they conform to Rosa, they take inspiration from him, or whether they tell different stories entirely.

[That Duckfan]

Stories
I agree with both of you on Fergus and his little plan. I'd go so far as to say that it paints Fergus in a bad light, as manipulative, just because Rosa is so intent on dressing up this momentous occasion. Any other time we see Fergus, he's a plain, humble, and mild-mannered man. A welcome departure from the rest of the family, surely.

Did Rosa trap himself by creating two origin stories for Scrooge, one in either story? The Magica one came first, and it's a much more dramatic story as a result of it. Say what you want about villains and heroes and origin story, I live for this stuff. It is does overshadow Fergus' little plan --- as well as making Burt a downright dishonest man.

Another thing I noticed is that Scrooge's recollection of the event is perfectly accurate. He did indeed work at those boots for half an hour: no more, no less. That's something Rosa relies quite a lot in his back-up stories, Scrooge's near-photographic memory. Rosa doesn't like unreliable narration, even if it might have been perfectly in-character for Scrooge. Rosa prefers the omniscient narrator over different viewpoints. Ironic for a man who draws so much from Citizen Kane.

I'm surprised the America angle wasn't played up more. This is the era of the unfettered immigrant, after all. It would be perfectly in keeping for Scrooge to dream of America after hearing the (wildly exaggerated) tales of his Uncle Angus. I know I was enamored with America at that age. I suppose it wouldn't be in keeping with Rosa to make Scrooge such a dreamer, and either way --- most 'flaws' I can point out in these stories just show that I would likely pen a different story altogether! What we have is more than solid.


Cover Art Discussion
US 285 is a classic cover as far as I'm concerned. The flames on the horse were edited out, I believe, for American sensibilities. (Yes, this is silly.)
US 297 has a nice cover, but it really doesn't fit this story.


Character Discussion
Downy is really too underused to say anything about her. You can tell she's buckling under the pressure of the era. I wish we had a better idea of what she was like and how this is reflected in her children, as the family resemblances are much closer between Scrooge, his siblings, and the generations that follow. Where did Hortense's temper come from, anyway?

Fergus makes for an interesting 'what-if' Scrooge, although I can't quite make out where that what-if lies. What did Fergus lack that's held him back so much? A much later story shows us that Fergus did have a little adventurous streak in him after all, although that conflicts a little with the feeble old man we see in The Billionaire of Dismal Downs.


Fanon Discussion
Rosa's timeline was fundamental to my growing up on Disney comics. I've dampened my love a little, after some criticism on other forums, but it's still rock solid in my opinion. I don't have a single unified canon as such, but I owe a deep debt to the timeline Rosa set out. For me, what's more interesting are the stories Rosa didn't tell --- my fanon takes place in the cracks and gaps in his timeline.

I fully agree with Matilda on the timeline, too. Rosa himself was quick to say that his timeline shouldn't be taken as gospel, and I've taken him very literally on that. This is ROSA's timeline, and seeing newer artists work in that framework feels wrong. Particularly because the Dutch editors have long taken something of an anti-Rosa stance, which has only been reversed in recent years. Rosa is his own category, in my view. May the Duck universes long reign, from Bottaro to Bradbury and from Rota to Vicar.
None of this is something Rosa can do anything about, of course. (If he distanced himself from DuckTales before, imagine how he feels now!)

[Matilda]

Cover art: It is my recollection also that the flames were edited out of the American cover art on the theory that that picture out of narrative context would be too scary for children (as if a person were being burned alive, I suppose). Also, on the L&T covers generally: I *loved* the inset portraits of Scrooge at different ages. I was glad to later get the Gladstone trading cards that featured four of the twelve, with the others shown in miniature on the back--but I really wished to have a set of 12 trading cards with the 12 portraits. I was pleased to get a (Danish, I think) issue from a traveling friend which had the ch. 1 portrait of child-Scrooge enlarged to fill the cover.

Secondary subject: I didn't write about this because I have a pretty deep aversion to time travel stories generally. I don't mind time travel as a way to get to an interesting place, but I generally dislike time travel plots that deal with the interaction between what the traveler does in the past and the situation in the present. I do agree with alquackskey, though, that Magica's character is well portrayed, with the kind and degree of villainy I prefer her to have; and that some of the visual jokes are great. (And in L&T 1, when I praised the visual jokes around Hortense's thumb-sucking, I was definitely including the panels with the horse.)

Characters: I agree with alquackskey that Fergus is a great character: defeated to some extent, but proud of clan history, a moral compass for his children, a loving, proud and supportive father. That Duckfan, I've always assumed that Matilda takes after Downy (as eldest daughters often do take after their mothers), so that Matilda's kindness and care for baby Hortense and insight into personality and strong family-feeling later towards Scrooge give us a sense of Downy's character.

Rosa doesn't give us an ancestral origin for Hortense's and Donald's temper--though Donald inherits argumentativeness from *both* parents, so that explains why he has temper². Does anyone else provide any Duck or McDuck ancestors who display this temper in earlier generations?

[alquackskey]

Jun 1, 2021 21:07:12 GMT That Duckfan said:

Stories
I agree with both of you on Fergus and his little plan. I'd go so far as to say that it paints Fergus in a bad light, as manipulative, just because Rosa is so intent on dressing up this momentous occasion. Any other time we see Fergus, he's a plain, humble, and mild-mannered man. A welcome departure from the rest of the family, surely.

Did Rosa trap himself by creating two origin stories for Scrooge, one in either story? The Magica one came first, and it's a much more dramatic story as a result of it. Say what you want about villains and heroes and origin story, I live for this stuff. It is does overshadow Fergus' little plan --- as well as making Burt a downright dishonest man.

Another thing I noticed is that Scrooge's recollection of the event is perfectly accurate. He did indeed work at those boots for half an hour: no more, no less. That's something Rosa relies quite a lot in his back-up stories, Scrooge's near-photographic memory. Rosa doesn't like unreliable narration, even if it might have been perfectly in-character for Scrooge. Rosa prefers the omniscient narrator over different viewpoints. Ironic for a man who draws so much from Citizen Kane.

I'm surprised the America angle wasn't played up more. This is the era of the unfettered immigrant, after all. It would be perfectly in keeping for Scrooge to dream of America after hearing the (wildly exaggerated) tales of his Uncle Angus. I know I was enamored with America at that age. I suppose it wouldn't be in keeping with Rosa to make Scrooge such a dreamer, and either way --- most 'flaws' I can point out in these stories just show that I would likely pen a different story altogether! What we have is more than solid.


Cover Art Discussion
US 285 is a classic cover as far as I'm concerned. The flames on the horse were edited out, I believe, for American sensibilities. (Yes, this is silly.)
US 297 has a nice cover, but it really doesn't fit this story.


Character Discussion
Downy is really too underused to say anything about her. You can tell she's buckling under the pressure of the era. I wish we had a better idea of what she was like and how this is reflected in her children, as the family resemblances are much closer between Scrooge, his siblings, and the generations that follow. Where did Hortense's temper come from, anyway?

Fergus makes for an interesting 'what-if' Scrooge, although I can't quite make out where that what-if lies. What did Fergus lack that's held him back so much? A much later story shows us that Fergus did have a little adventurous streak in him after all, although that conflicts a little with the feeble old man we see in The Billionaire of Dismal Downs.


Fanon Discussion
Rosa's timeline was fundamental to my growing up on Disney comics. I've dampened my love a little, after some criticism on other forums, but it's still rock solid in my opinion. I don't have a single unified canon as such, but I owe a deep debt to the timeline Rosa set out. For me, what's more interesting are the stories Rosa didn't tell --- my fanon takes place in the cracks and gaps in his timeline.

I fully agree with Matilda on the timeline, too. Rosa himself was quick to say that his timeline shouldn't be taken as gospel, and I've taken him very literally on that. This is ROSA's timeline, and seeing newer artists work in that framework feels wrong. Particularly because the Dutch editors have long taken something of an anti-Rosa stance, which has only been reversed in recent years. Rosa is his own category, in my view. May the Duck universes long reign, from Bottaro to Bradbury and from Rota to Vicar.
None of this is something Rosa can do anything about, of course. (If he distanced himself from DuckTales before, imagine how he feels now!)

Maybe it's just my own experience with the word, but I don't know if I'd quite call Fergus' plan manipulative.
I think that the whole thing stemmed from what he could see in Scrooge; at only ten years old, he was starting to feel disillusioned by the fact that he felt powerless.
They couldn't visit their ancestral home, they couldn't fight back... it just seems like a hopeless situation.
Fergus' idea, in my head, is to show him that some things do seem hopeless - and while you can't necessarily fight back in a conventional way, you can still fight back and be someone that you can be proud of.

Part of it, in my mind, comes from what little we know (In Rosa's stories) of Dirty Dingus and Molly - they both look miserable in their family portraits, and in "History of the Clan McDuck", which Rosa intended to include, we see that Dirty Dingus was miserably working a difficult job for little pay.
I imagine that that would have had an effect on the three kids - and that affects how they approach the younger generations.
Fergus, the way I see it, wants to give Scrooge a hopeful, but realistic point of view - you should always do your best and try to do the right thing. That being said, people will take advantage of that, and you have to be prepared for that. Ultimately, whether things are good or bad, you should never lose your 'spark'.

I can agree that his methods to achieve this are questionable, but I don't think it's necessarily 'manipulative'.
I think it's more the case that there were lessons he felt that Scrooge needed to learn, but felt that there were better ways to teach them than simply saying them directly.
Of course, this is drawing somewhat significantly from my own headcanons, so how valid it is as an argument is open to interpretation 

I do agree that "Of Ducks and Dimes and Destinies" somewhat overshadows Fergus' plan - it's the sort of thing that I dislike in these stories. It's not so much that it attributes something to one character (Magica, in this case), but also that it takes away from the agency of other characters. One could argue that a lot of the story would be the same without Magica's intervention, but it's only through her presence that the dime enters the equation - if she didn't have her little meeting with Howard, he wouldn't have thrown the coins out to the kids.
For me, it's Rosa's "Magic Hourglass" - I like the story, but it doesn't mesh well enough with the canon for me to include it for the most part.

The specific time details are actually a bit ridiculous, now that you say it.
I could live with it in most cases, but he was a passed-out ten year old about eighty years prior - the fact that he remembers down to the finer details a is a bit hard to buy 

I think what Fergus lacked was hope - he didn't really have anything to inspire him, from what we can see.
We know that Dirty Dingus (In Rosa's canon) was a 'lowly miner'. His and Molly's appearances on Rosa's family tree look miserable - some members look a bit grouchy or confused, but they're the only ones who actively seem so miserable.
Ultimately, I imagine that Fergus didn't really have the drive to really do much - his ancestors brought shame to the clan, his parents were miserable, he had very few prospects, and he could hardly even visit his ancestral home because of the Hound.
Angus is the only one that managed to leave Scotland - leaving Fergus and Jake behind. It doesn't help that, from what we see, Jake doesn't really do much to promote positivity ("Aye! And with equipment like that, he'll someday become a millionaire!").
All in all, it looks to me like Fergus never had his "Tougher than the toughies and sharper than the sharpies" moment; he resolved to make it square, but never really had anything in particular that pushed him to shoot for the stars.

I can relate to how you view Rosa's timeline - it's a lot of fun to imagine what goes into the missing places, so to speak!
Plus, it was an integral part of why I got into Disney comics, too - it was that cohesive narrative that opened the door to everything else for me!
 

Jun 2, 2021 0:36:10 GMT Matilda said:

Cover art: It is my recollection also that the flames were edited out of the American cover art on the theory that that picture out of narrative context would be too scary for children (as if a person were being burned alive, I suppose). Also, on the L&T covers generally: I *loved* the inset portraits of Scrooge at different ages. I was glad to later get the Gladstone trading cards that featured four of the twelve, with the others shown in miniature on the back--but I really wished to have a set of 12 trading cards with the 12 portraits. I was pleased to get a (Danish, I think) issue from a traveling friend which had the ch. 1 portrait of child-Scrooge enlarged to fill the cover.

Secondary subject: I didn't write about this because I have a pretty deep aversion to time travel stories generally. I don't mind time travel as a way to get to an interesting place, but I generally dislike time travel plots that deal with the interaction between what the traveler does in the past and the situation in the present. I do agree with alquackskey, though, that Magica's character is well portrayed, with the kind and degree of villainy I prefer her to have; and that some of the visual jokes are great. (And in L&T 1, when I praised the visual jokes around Hortense's thumb-sucking, I was definitely including the panels with the horse.)

Characters: I agree with alquackskey that Fergus is a great character: defeated to some extent, but proud of clan history, a moral compass for his children, a loving, proud and supportive father. That Duckfan, I've always assumed that Matilda takes after Downy (as eldest daughters often do take after their mothers), so that Matilda's kindness and care for baby Hortense and insight into personality and strong family-feeling later towards Scrooge give us a sense of Downy's character.

Rosa doesn't give us an ancestral origin for Hortense's and Donald's temper--though Donald inherits argumentativeness from *both* parents, so that explains why he has temper². Does anyone else provide any Duck or McDuck ancestors who display this temper in earlier generations?

Wow, I had no idea about the cover art.
I'm still wrapping my head around it - some censorings are so bizarre to me 
The portraits are great; it really does have a sense of progression for Scrooge - it's amazing to me that twelve images manage to tell a story all by themselves!

I think you're spot on about Downy - I just wish that we had gotten the opportunity for her to show her personality a little more directly.
She's an integral figure in Scrooge's story, and, as you say, most likely a major influence on Matilda - I feel like that should have warranted a little more prominence.

Also, while Rosa doesn't explicitly offer much, there is Black Donald in "History of the Clan McDuck".
Not much to go on, but it's probably a start?