Anyway, the change from "Unca Donald has raised us well and cared for us all along!" to "It was Unca Donald who took it upon himself to raise his three orphaned nephews." is more than just replacing "us" with "his three orphaned nephews", so I guess the first line was reworded by the publisher, and the latter was identical to his original script. And it's intersting to note that this story was produced shortly after "Return to Xanadu", in which he wanted to show their parents alive but then changed his mind because he couldn't find a suitable way to have them return. Only two stories ("Incident at McDuck Tower" and "The Island at the Edge of Time") were produced between "Return to Xanadu" and "Super Snooper Strikes Again".
Do we know for a fact that Rosa intended for the boys' parents to still be alive in "Return to Xanadu"? IIRC, the High Lama merely hints that their parents have some connection with Tralla-La. They could have died there. Since Rosa originally wanted the "three orphaned nephews" line included in "Super Snooper Strikes Again," I would guess that he probably considers them dead.
Do we know for a fact that Rosa intended for the boys' parents to still be alive in "Return to Xanadu"? IIRC, the High Lama merely hints that their parents have some connection with Tralla-La. They could have died there. Since Rosa originally wanted the "three orphaned nephews" line included in "Super Snooper Strikes Again," I would guess that he probably considers them dead.
I can't say for sure, but I don't think Don wanted to tell how they died in Tralla La, so it seems more likely that he wanted them to show up alive in there, and that's why he did that sequence. However, he couldn't find a suitable way to bring them back without breaking the status quo.
This is something Rosa wrote in 2009, but there are several similar messages he wrote both before and after it:
>>>>>Have you ever think what happened to della duck? In fan fiction many people wrote about her too much! Is maybe one of the character that you're not allowed to use?
I don't know if they'd allow me to use Della Duck (the Nephews' mother). I always had it in my notes to do a story about the Nephews' search for their parents because it was always the TOP request from fans. But I could never figure out how to do it. There could only be 4 possible endings: 1) They search and never find their parents -- pointless and sad. 2) They search and find that their parents are dead -- sad and pointless. 3) They find their parents and go to live with them, leaving Unca Donald --clearly unacceptable, and very very sad. 4) They find their parents and stay with Unca Donald -- illogical, probably illegal (lawsuits would ensue), and sad.
So I never even attempted to suggest the story to Egmont. But I have *always* had an idea where their parents have been. I figured I'd make them naturalists and intrepid explorers, perhaps the Dad was a Junior Woodchucks leader, and that they have been lost in a Himalayan valley after leaving their triplets with Donald, supposedly for only a few weeks. I even included a sequence in a script I once wrote that indicated this, but we decided to leave that part out of the final story when I completed the art.
It's possible that after leaving out that bit from "Return to Xanadu" Don figured he could never finid a way to bring them back alive, and so he decided to imply they are dead in "Super Snooper Strikes Again".
There's also the fact that the face of HDL's father is covered by a bird in the family tre. Could it be that the bird's purpose was to allow Don to show the father in a story without revealing right away that it's him? I guess it depends on the production date of the family tree.
Changing the subject a little, but staying in the topic of HDL's parent, I will post the scans of three pages of an Italian story from 2010. It's one of the only three stories I know to mention Della, and there's even a complete explanation of her fate, but it's a big trolling since the explanation happens off-screen.
Translation of the interesting parts:
NEPHEW: Ehi, uncle...
NEPHEW: ...everybody here knows about their family, even if they have lots of relatives!
NEPHEW: Why don't you talk about our family?
SCROOGE: Actually...
NEPHEW: Come on, uncle! There are too many things we don't know!
SCROOGE: Since we have to wait... all right!
NEPHEW: Great!
SCROOGE: Well... as you know, I am your uncle! Actually, great-uncle, to be exact! I have two sisters, Matilda and Hortense McDuck, and we are of Scottish descent...
[...]
SCROOGE: ...and that's why your mother, Della Duck, sent you to live with your uncle Donald Duck!
NEPHEW: But this story is... beautiful!
NEPHEW: I am moved!
NEPHEW: Me too!
NEPHEW: Thanks for telling it to us!
NEPHEW: We like you!
SCROOGE: Ehi! Stop with these pointless signs of affection!
Last Edit: Jan 12, 2017 8:13:23 GMT by drakeborough
Here's the panel with the dialogue. No mention of it in Rosa's Behind the Scenes comments.
Thanks for the image. I see that only the dialogue in the first balloon has been changed, while the dialogues in the other two ballons are left intact. The colouring and the lettering are both changed (and improved), though with this lettering the balloons are bigger and cover a bigger part of the art.
Anyway, the question now is which version has the old dialogue and which version the new one. Accoring to Inducks, the story has been published five times in the USA:
•Donald Duck Adventures (Disney Comics) 34 (1993) Super Snooper Strikes Again [panels 2-5/7-8 page 5 mirrored] •Walt Disney Giant 3 (1996) idem [panels 2-5/7-8 page 5 mirrored] •The Barks / Rosa Collection 2 - Donald Duck Adventures (2008) idem •Walt Disney Treasury 2 - Donald Duck Vol 2 p. 069 (2011) idem •Don Rosa Library 3 - Treasure Under Glass p. 147 (2015) idem
Here's a scan of what Donald says in that Bradbury story: However, both Scrooge and Donald soon confirm that Donald just made his story up:
So let me get this straight: Donald tried to tell Scrooge that he and HD&L were all orphans? That's bizarre. Whether they are or not, it doesn't seem like something Scrooge would need to be told. You'd think Scrooge would at least know the basics of his own family's history! Since Donald was ultimately revealed to be lying, though, this story can't be cited as evidence of anything (or is it evidence that none of them actually are orphans?). And anyway, Donald is a grown man, and HD&L are being cared for by Donald, so do any of them meet the technical definition of "orphan" even if all their parents are dead?
Clearly, Donald and his nephews were NOT dressed up in rags to try to pretend to be some other people that Scrooge wouldn't recognise. Donald addresses Scrooge as "Uncle" Scrooge. Donald had them all dress in rags to emphasize how poor they were, and so, needy enough to be "worthy" of the handout he hoped to get. He was using his and his nephews' traditionally pitiable status as true orphans, to try to get some sympathy from Scrooge, which otherwise would not be possible. It wasn't that Donald thought that Scrooge didn't know that they had all been orphaned when they were young. Of course, Scrooge had known that all along. Donald was playing to Scrooge's knowledge of that fact, hoping (against all hope) that Scrooge, dwelling on that fact, would, somehow, realise that they deserve something good to happen, and the stingy old Duck's heart would melt a bit. He knew there was almost no chance of that. But, he was desperately grasping at straws.
Clearly, Donald and his nephews were NOT dressed up in rags to try to pretend to be some other people that Scrooge wouldn't recognise. Donald addresses Scrooge as "Uncle" Scrooge. Donald had them all dress in rags to emphasize how poor they were, and so, needy enough to be "worthy" of the handout he hoped to get. He was using his and his nephews' traditionally pitiable status as true orphans, to try to get some sympathy from Scrooge, which otherwise would not be possible. It wasn't that Donald thought that Scrooge didn't know that they had all been orphaned when they were young. Of course, Scrooge had known that all along. Donald was playing to Scrooge's knowledge of that fact, hoping (against all hope) that Scrooge, dwelling on that fact, would, somehow, realise that they deserve something good to happen, and the stingy old Duck's heart would melt a bit. He knew there was almost no chance of that. But, he was desperately grasping at straws.
It may be, but the whole thing seems poorly executed. I can understand an author coming to the conclusion that HDL are orphans, since they live with their uncle and not with their parents, but Donald? Apart from the question of whether a grown adult living on his own can call himself an orphan if he has no living parents, why would the writer introduce this idea (Donald's parents are dead) as an incidental and well-known fact, instead of introducing it as a new fact that readers are learning for the first time?
And if I am allowed a small off-topic: Robb, are there any news of your young Scrooge story you talked about last July?
Do we know for a fact that Rosa intended for the boys' parents to still be alive in "Return to Xanadu"? IIRC, the High Lama merely hints that their parents have some connection with Tralla-La. They could have died there. Since Rosa originally wanted the "three orphaned nephews" line included in "Super Snooper Strikes Again," I would guess that he probably considers them dead.
I can't say for sure, but I don't think Don wanted to tell how they died in Tralla La, so it seems more likely that he wanted them to show up alive in there, and that's why he did that sequence. However, he couldn't find a suitable way to bring them back without breaking the status quo.
This is something Rosa wrote in 2009, but there are several similar messages he wrote both before and after it:
>>>>>Have you ever think what happened to della duck? In fan fiction many people wrote about her too much! Is maybe one of the character that you're not allowed to use?
I don't know if they'd allow me to use Della Duck (the Nephews' mother). I always had it in my notes to do a story about the Nephews' search for their parents because it was always the TOP request from fans. But I could never figure out how to do it. There could only be 4 possible endings: 1) They search and never find their parents -- pointless and sad. 2) They search and find that their parents are dead -- sad and pointless. 3) They find their parents and go to live with them, leaving Unca Donald --clearly unacceptable, and very very sad. 4) They find their parents and stay with Unca Donald -- illogical, probably illegal (lawsuits would ensue), and sad.
So I never even attempted to suggest the story to Egmont. But I have *always* had an idea where their parents have been. I figured I'd make them naturalists and intrepid explorers, perhaps the Dad was a Junior Woodchucks leader, and that they have been lost in a Himalayan valley after leaving their triplets with Donald, supposedly for only a few weeks. I even included a sequence in a script I once wrote that indicated this, but we decided to leave that part out of the final story when I completed the art.
It's possible that after leaving out that bit from "Return to Xanadu" Don figured he could never finid a way to bring them back alive, and so he decided to imply they are dead in "Super Snooper Strikes Again".
There's also the fact that the face of HDL's father is covered by a bird in the family tre. Could it be that the bird's purpose was to allow Don to show the father in a story without revealing right away that it's him? I guess it depends on the production date of the family tree.
Changing the subject a little, but staying in the topic of HDL's parent, I will post the scans of three pages of an Italian story from 2010. It's one of the only three stories I know to mention Della, and there's even a complete explanation of her fate, but it's a big trolling since the explanation happens off-screen.
Translation of the interesting parts:
NEPHEW: Ehi, uncle...
NEPHEW: ...everybody here knows about their family, even if they have lots of relatives!
NEPHEW: Why don't you talk about our family?
SCROOGE: Actually...
NEPHEW: Come on, uncle! There are too many things we don't know!
SCROOGE: Since we have to wait... all right!
NEPHEW: Great!
SCROOGE: Well... as you know, I am your uncle! Actually, great-uncle, to be exact! I have two sisters, Matilda and Hortense McDuck, and we are of Scottish descent...
[...]
SCROOGE: ...and that's why your mother, Della Duck, sent you to live with you uncle Donald Duck!
NEPHEW: But this story is... beautiful!
NEPHEW: I am moved!
NEPHEW: Me too!
NEPHEW: Thanks for telling it to us!
NEPHEW: We like you!
SCROOGE: Ehi! Stop with these pointless signs of affection!
Sort of a trolling, yes, but not bad. Personally, I'll take it as taking place before 80 is Praachtig, and Scrooge was telling him what everybody so far knew: Della courageously started the first great space mission ever and was a martyr of science. This would naturally appeal to Huey, Dewey and Louie's Junir Woodchuck side. Not a perfect fit, but I can see it work.
Sort of a trolling, yes, but not bad. Personally, I'll take it as taking place before 80 is Praachtig, and Scrooge was telling him what everybody so far knew: Della courageously started the first great space mission ever and was a martyr of science. This would naturally appeal to Huey, Dewey and Louie's Junir Woodchuck side. Not a perfect fit, but I can see it work.
It may be. Anyway, I notice that in my previous message I wrote "one of the only three stories I know to mention Della". This is an obvious mistake, as I meant to wrote "one of the only three ITALIAN stories I know to mention Della".
I'll close this message with two trivias related to Della:
*Taliaferro named her after his maternal uncle's wife, Della Hirt (that's her married surname; her maiden surname is unknown). *In animation, she is only mentioned (as "Dumbella") in Donald's Nephews. However, she has an unofficial appearance in Robot Chicken. Not something we would see in an official Disney production:
Last Edit: Jan 11, 2017 15:49:05 GMT by drakeborough
Clearly, Donald and his nephews were NOT dressed up in rags to try to pretend to be some other people that Scrooge wouldn't recognise. Donald addresses Scrooge as "Uncle" Scrooge. Donald had them all dress in rags to emphasize how poor they were, and so, needy enough to be "worthy" of the handout he hoped to get. He was using his and his nephews' traditionally pitiable status as true orphans, to try to get some sympathy from Scrooge, which otherwise would not be possible. It wasn't that Donald thought that Scrooge didn't know that they had all been orphaned when they were young. Of course, Scrooge had known that all along. Donald was playing to Scrooge's knowledge of that fact, hoping (against all hope) that Scrooge, dwelling on that fact, would, somehow, realise that they deserve something good to happen, and the stingy old Duck's heart would melt a bit. He knew there was almost no chance of that. But, he was desperately grasping at straws.
It may be, but the whole thing seems poorly executed. I can understand an author coming to the conclusion that HDL are orphans, since they live with their uncle and not with their parents, but Donald? Apart from the question of whether a grown adult living on his own can call himself an orphan if he has no living parents, why would the writer introduce this idea (Donald's parents are dead) as an incidental and well-known fact, instead of introducing it as a new fact that readers are learning for the first time?
And if I am allowed a small off-topic: Robb, are there any news of your young Scrooge story you talked about last July?
A grown adult can call himself or herself an orphan if he or she had been orphaned during childhood. According to The Disney Studios and Disney Comic books, Donald had been raised by his grandmother on her farm, and no cartoon, film or US comic book has shown Donald growing up with his birth parents. So, why shouldn't he refer to himself as an orphan? Every person who had been orphaned in childhood I've ever met, that I knew during his or her adulthood, still referred to him or herself as an orphan for the rest of their lives. Most of them are proud of how well they had done in life, despite having been given that setback.
My story about Scrooge's childhood is among a group of several of my co-productions with Jan Gulbransson, that have been held up because of the annual end-of-the-year freeze on acceptance of new submitted stories. We hope that freeze will be lifted by the end of January (as is the usual procedure). But that is uncertain.
RobbK1 said: no cartoon, film or US comic book has shown Donald growing up with his birth parents.
So, I know you can't stand Rosa's art and thus haven't read most of his stories, which is totally your right, but Rosa did show Donald and Della with their parents at child-Gladstone's birthday party at Grandma's farm in "The Sign of the Triple Distelfink," and Hortense and Quackmore have Donald and Della with them when Scrooge comes home to Duckburg in "The Empire Builder from Calisota." Of course those came out long after the story where Donald and the boys dress up as orphans, so maybe you meant no US comic book *had* shown Donald growing up with his birth parents before that story was written.
But what you say about the use of the word "orphan" is of course true. I had not included that possibility in my previous statement. If an adult was orphaned in childhood, s/he may well continue to refer to her/himself as an orphan. Other people are unlikely to call that person an orphan, though, unless speaking of that person's childhood. And even then, I'd be more likely to say "She was orphaned in childhood" than to say "She's an orphan."
On Della/Dumbella's name... (drakeborough mentioned this on another thread, but I thought this comment belonged here better)
In 1998 I wrote to Don Rosa, saying that Duckfan Lowell Handy (some of you have seen his name in Disney comics letter columns in the past) "has an explanation for the name 'Dumbella'; he suggests that it was Donald's nickname for Della in childhood. In proof that an adult sister could sign a letter with such a name, he submits a note from his own adult younger sister, which she signed affectionately with the slightly insulting name he bestowed on her in childhood." Don responded to that part of my email: "Yes, that's very good. I'll remember that."
Not claiming that he necessarily does still remember that, just saying that he liked the idea when told about it! If anyone cares about including the "Dumbella" note in their continuity, this is a satisfying way of explaining the name. I find it very believable that child-Donald would call his sister Della "Dumbella."
RobbK1 said: no cartoon, film or US comic book has shown Donald growing up with his birth parents.
So, I know you can't stand Rosa's art and thus haven't read most of his stories, which is totally your right, but Rosa did show Donald and Della with their parents at child-Gladstone's birthday party at Grandma's farm in "The Sign of the Triple Distelfink," and Hortense and Quackmore have Donald and Della with them when Scrooge comes home to Duckburg in "The Empire Builder from Calisota." Of course those came out long after the story where Donald and the boys dress up as orphans, so maybe you meant no US comic book *had* shown Donald growing up with his birth parents before that story was written.
But what you say about the use of the word "orphan" is of course true. I had not included that possibility in my previous statement. If an adult was orphaned in childhood, s/he may well continue to refer to her/himself as an orphan. Other people are unlikely to call that person an orphan, though, unless speaking of that person's childhood. And even then, I'd be more likely to say "She was orphaned in childhood" than to say "She's an orphan."
Sorry, I haven't read those stories, so I didn't know those scenes were portrayed in them. And yes, you are correct that I meant that no official Disney source had been released to the public stating that Donald had been brought up by his birth parents, by the time Bradbury's story had been written in 1953 or 1954.
A grown adult can call himself or herself an orphan if he or she had been orphaned during childhood. According to The Disney Studios and Disney Comic books, Donald had been raised by his grandmother on her farm, and no cartoon, film or US comic book has shown Donald growing up with his birth parents. So, why shouldn't he refer to himself as an orphan?
But as far as I know the earliest source of this idea (Donald being raised by his grandmother) dates to 1960 (animated and comic version of "This is Your Life, Donald Duck"), while the comic you linked is from 1954. Back then, the idea of Donald being orphaned since childhood was not obvious at all. I'm not saying it is necessarily a bad idea (though I think it is), but if the writer wanted to use this idea, at least he should have pointed out he was giving the reader a new information, instead of mentioning it incidentally as if it was common knowledge (it was not).
My story about Scrooge's childhood is among a group of several of my co-productions with Jan Gulbransson, that have been held up because of the annual end-of-the-year freeze on acceptance of new submitted stories. We hope that freeze will be lifted by the end of January (as is the usual procedure). But that is uncertain.
Rosa did show Donald and Della with their parents at child-Gladstone's birthday party at Grandma's farm in "The Sign of the Triple Distelfink,"
Incidentally, Della's cameo in that story is so well hidden that Don seems to have forgotten about it, as in at least a couple of occasions he has provided an explanation for her absence!
On Della/Dumbella's name... (drakeborough mentioned this on another thread, but I thought this comment belonged here better)
In 1998 I wrote to Don Rosa, saying that Duckfan Lowell Handy (some of you have seen his name in Disney comics letter columns in the past) "has an explanation for the name 'Dumbella'; he suggests that it was Donald's nickname for Della in childhood. In proof that an adult sister could sign a letter with such a name, he submits a note from his own adult younger sister, which she signed affectionately with the slightly insulting name he bestowed on her in childhood." Don responded to that part of my email: "Yes, that's very good. I'll remember that."
Not claiming that he necessarily does still remember that, just saying that he liked the idea when told about it! If anyone cares about including the "Dumbella" note in their continuity, this is a satisfying way of explaining the name. I find it very believable that child-Donald would call his sister Della "Dumbella."
I don't know if Don remembers that specific 1998 e-mail or not (though I would bet against that), but I know that he has expressed the same idea (Dumbella being the nickname of Della) in many other messages.
Anyway, my idea is that Don doesn't really care for the name Dumbella, and that his "it's a nickname" explanation is basically a way of saying: I like to ignore it and pretend I just read Della when I read Dumbella, but if I really have to explain the name Dumbella in that cartoon, I will say it's just a nickname. This is the idea I got from reading Don's various messages on this topic, and I think it's no wonder his family tree just says Della Duck instead of Della "Dumbella" Duck, even though many characters in the tree are listed with both their names and nicknames. I think that if he ever used adult Della and had her writing a letter to Donald, the letter would not have been signed Dumbella.
Of course this is just my idea and I can't prove it, but I think it's interesting to see what Don wrote in this DCML message dated 21 January 1995. Instead of mentioning the nickname explanation as he usually does, he said:
Whatever you speculate that the names of the Ducks are, be sure of one thing -- Donald's sister's name is NOT "Dumbella". Even though I always say that my versions of these characters and their histories are just MY versions, and no one is expected to accept it over any other, I still wish to say that I won't sit still whenever I hear that anyone would suggest that a character in the Duck Family would have such a stupid name as "Dumbella". Della is not short for Dumbella... if it has to be short for something, it's short for... Dellaaaaa. (?)
Last Edit: Jan 11, 2017 15:46:30 GMT by drakeborough
I don't know if Don remembers that specific 1998 e-mail or not (though I would bet against that), but I know that he has expressed the same idea (Dumbella being the nickname of Della) in many other messages.
Anyway, my idea is that Don doesn't really care for the name Dumbella, and that his "it's a nickname" explanation is basically a way of saying: I like to ignore it and pretend I just read Della when I read Dumbella, but if I really have to explain the name Dumbella in that cartoon, I will say it's just a nickname. This is the idea I got from reading Don's various messages on this topic, and I think it's no wonder his family tree just says Della Duck instead of Della "Dumbella" Duck, even though many characters in the tree are listed with both their names and nicknames. I think that if he ever used adult Della and had her writing a letter to Donald, the letter would not have been signed Dumbella.
Of course this is just my idea and I can't prove it, but I think it's interesting to see what Don wrote in this DCML message dated 21 January 1995. Instead of mentioning the nickname explanation as he usually does, he said:
Whatever you speculate that the names of the Ducks are, be sure of one thing -- Donald's sister's name is NOT "Dumbella". Even though I always say that my versions of these characters and their histories are just MY versions, and no one is expected to accept it over any other, I still wish to say that I won't sit still whenever I hear that anyone would suggest that a character in the Duck Family would have such a stupid name as "Dumbella". Della is not short for Dumbella... if it has to be short for something, it's short for... Dellaaaaa. (?)
I see. Don Rosa references the alternate theory, one that has been used by whoever answered the letters column of Uncle Scrooge when L&Twas first printed in it: it was suggested that she'd been named Dumbella, but hated the name and wanted everyone to call her Della; and, also, that she eventually changed it to Thelma, explaining why she's referred to as Thelma in Carl Barks's first Duck Family Tree and Mark Worden's rendition of it.
I see. Don Rosa references the alternate theory, one that has been used by whoever answered the letters column of Uncle Scrooge when L&Twas first printed in it: it was suggested that she'd been named Dumbella, but hated the name and wanted everyone to call her Della; and, also, that she eventually changed it to Thelma, explaining why she's referred to as Thelma in Carl Barks's first Duck Family Tree and Mark Worden's rendition of it.
Well, I don't know which one is the "mainstream theory" and which one is the "alternate theory" according to you, I also don't know which is the earliest mention made by Don of the theory that Dumbella is a nickname, and I don't even know the text of that letters column.
On the other hand, I do know that the 21 January 1995 DCML message I linked in my previous message was a direct answer to another DCML message (dated 18 January 1995) by user Wilmer Rivers, which icluded the following text:
I for one would like to think that the ducklings were given legitimate names at birth and then called informally by the diminutive versions. (Just like Donald/Don and Dumbella/Della in the previous generation on their family tree.)
After Rivers' message and before Don's message, there was also another message (dated 19 January) on the same subject by David Gerstein:
Also, no matter what anyone says, I imagine that "Dumbella" must be Donald's pet name for his sister from when they were kids. A nickname for Della (not the other way around). No one could really name their poor daughter Dumbella. (Note to non-English speakers: a dumb-bell means a total idiot.)
As for the name Thelma, I prefer to ignore it completely: it didn't come from either the newspaper comic or the animated short, and it just served as sort of a placeholder name to compensate for the fact that Barks didn't have access to either the comic or the short to check the name. In fact, I think Picsou Wiki's incipit of Della's article is misleading:
"Della Thelma Duck de son nom de baptême, appelée communément Della Duck et surnommée « Dumbella », appelée Margot dans d'anciennes traductions, était une cane anthropomorphe de l'univers de Donald Duck."
Since Thelma has never been officially confirmed to be her middle name, I think a better incipit would be:
"Della Duck, aussi connu sous le nom Thelma Duck et surnommée « Dumbella », appelée Margot dans d'anciennes traductions, était une cane anthropomorphe de l'univers de Donald Duck."
I am not sure about the grammar or choice of words, but I think I made my idea clear.
