Grandma Duck as Scrooge's sister: where does it come from ?

[sirtao]

Generally speaking, in Italy relatives beyond second grade older than you are uncles\aunts, same-aged are cousins and younger are nieces\nephews- even when they are actually something else. If anything: an older family friend might get called "uncle" and nobody would bat an eye.

Daisy might well be completely unrelated to Scrooge, but she's been with Donald so long she gets to call him Uncle by transitive property.

Similar situation with Grandma Duck: she's the elder female figure of the (extended)family group so she gets the title. Mickey&co get to use it because they're family friends

[RobbK1]

Jan 11, 2017 23:09:07 GMT sirtao said:

Generally speaking, in Italy relatives beyond second grade older than you are uncles\aunts, same-aged are cousins and younger are nieces\nephews- even when they are actually something else. If anything: an older family friend might get called "uncle" and nobody would bat an eye.

Daisy might well be completely unrelated to Scrooge, but she's been with Donald so long she gets to call him Uncle by transitive property.

Similar situation with Grandma Duck: she's the elder female figure of the (extended)family group so she gets the title. Mickey&co get to use it because they're family friends

I've been called "Gran'Pa by a lot of people I don't even know! 

[drakeborough]

Jan 10, 2017 22:28:12 GMT drakeborough said:

Anyway, the earliest source of this idea (Scrooge and Grandma Duck being sibilings) may be this 1960 combination of a poetry (by Guido Martina) + an illustration (by Romano Scarpa); this is the Inducks link. The illustration is called "Ignara Nonna Papera al fratello", meaning "Oblivious Grandma Duck to her brother".

The poetry says "Ignara Nonna Papera al fratello/un pezzetto ha venduto di orticello./L'astuto Paperone spicca il volo/i frutti nel mirar del... sottosuolo". The first two lines mean "Oblivious Grandma Duck sold a piece of her vegetable garden to her brother".

Maybe there is an even earlier source. This 2002 DCML message by Luca Boschi seems to suggest that this 1955 story by Martina/Carpi portrays Scrooge and Grandma as sibilings. However, I don't have the story so I can't check.

[drakeborough]

Jan 18, 2017 14:43:08 GMT drakeborough said:

Maybe there is an even earlier source. This 2002 DCML message by Luca Boschi seems to suggest that this 1955 story by Martina/Carpi portrays Scrooge and Grandma as sibilings. However, I don't have the story so I can't check.

Now I have the story, and after checking I can say that story does NOT portray Scrooge and Grandma as sibilings; quite the opposite, it implies they are not.

In fact, in part 2 Mickey asks Scrooge if he can see the diary of his first day of school, but Scrooge says that to save money he naver kept one. Grandma Duck says that it doesn't matter, as they attended the same class in their first year of primary school and so her diary can also be used to know what Scrooge did that day. This is what is written in Grandma's diary (my translation): "Our school was in a little rural center of the West, in which I lived together with the parents of young Scrooge McDuck..." By the way, the story also mentions Scrooge's father when young Scrooge says he was given 25 cents by his father (a big part of the flashback is about Scrooge looking for these 25 cents after losing them).

In part 3, Scrooge recalls an earlier line of Grandma Duck (spoken by her in part 2 at the start of the flashback) by thinking "Eh! Eh! I can't read but I can smell! That little girl was right! There's a bad smell here..."

Since this story doesn't portray them as sibilings, then the earliest known source to do so is still that 1960 combination of poetry+painting.

[Scroogerello]

I've read in an old post on a German Disney comics forum ( www.comicforum.de/showthread.php?15719-Wer-ist-der-%E4lteste-Duck/page3 ) that in these two S-coded stories, various references are made to Grandma and Scrooge being siblings, as well as their childhood together:
coa.inducks.org/story.php?c=S+81105&search=Alten%20zeiten%20%20GD
coa.inducks.org/story.php?c=S+80181&search=Das%20alte%20spiel%20%20G

Also, in the original English dialogue of this story, Grandma Duck supposedly refers to Scrooge as "Cousin Scrooge":
coa.inducks.org/story.php?c=W+VP++++4-07

[Matilda]

Mar 25, 2017 12:21:43 GMT Scroogerello said:

I've read in an old post on a German Disney comics forum ( www.comicforum.de/showthread.php?15719-Wer-ist-der-%E4lteste-Duck/page3 ) that in these two S-coded stories, various references are made to Grandma and Scrooge being siblings, as well as their childhood together:
coa.inducks.org/story.php?c=S+81105&search=Alten%20zeiten%20%20GD
coa.inducks.org/story.php?c=S+80181&search=Das%20alte%20spiel%20%20G

Also, in the original English dialogue of this story, Grandma Duck supposedly refers to Scrooge as "Cousin Scrooge":
coa.inducks.org/story.php?c=W+VP++++4-07

The two S-coded stories are both by Ed Nofziger. I wonder whether he was told that in certain other countries GD and Scrooge were assumed to be siblings, or whether he decided they were on his own.

It sounds from the title & description as if "Good Old Exciting Days" is probably the one with the memories of their purported childhood together. Has anyone seen it?

I suppose "Cousin Scrooge" could be another instance of applying a family title in a loose sense--shorthand for "he's the uncle of my grandson on Donald's mother's side but he lives nearby and I see him at family gatherings."

I cannot help but note OT that the Spanish, Italian and Brazilian colorists of "No Sale" do not seem to realize that leaves change color in autumn!

[drakeborough]

Mar 25, 2017 12:21:43 GMT Scroogerello said:

I've read in an old post on a German Disney comics forum ( www.comicforum.de/showthread.php?15719-Wer-ist-der-%E4lteste-Duck/page3 ) that in these two S-coded stories, various references are made to Grandma and Scrooge being siblings, as well as their childhood together:
coa.inducks.org/story.php?c=S+81105&search=Alten%20zeiten%20%20GD
coa.inducks.org/story.php?c=S+80181&search=Das%20alte%20spiel%20%20G

I can't check their original versions, so I have checked their Italian versions.

In the first story we see a brief flashback (six non-consecutive panels) of Grandma as a kid, and there's an unnamed silent kid with her in four panels, but he is not identified as Scrooge. We do see Scrooge in the present and he interacts with Grandma, but they are not identified as sibilings (at least, not in the Italian version).

In the second story, there are no flashbacks, and the interation between Scrooge and Grandma is all in the present. At one point Scrooge says "Credevo che tu mi fossi amica!" ("I though you were my friend!"), and Grandma replies "Anch'io credevo che tu mi fossi amico!" ("I too thought that you were my friend!"). No references to them being sibilings (unless they were removed by the Italian translator), and in the last page there is a strange scene with two hearts drawn near the two of them.

On the other hand, there is an S-coded story which, in the Italian edition at least, portrays Scrooge and Grandma as sibilings. I am talking about Strobl's Circle Of Evil (1969), which has this scene:

Scrooge calles her "nonna" ("grandma") as anyone else ususally does, but she calls him "fratello caro" ("dear brother"). I don't know if the "brother" reference is already present in the original version or if it's something added by the translator.

I have the same doubt about "cent portafortuna" ("lucky cent") in the next panel. I know that changing dime to cent is definitely something done by the translator, but I don't know if the original story says "lucky dime", or if it says "Number One Dime" and the luck reference is something added by the translator.

Incidently, I think these three S-coded stories are really bad.

Mar 25, 2017 12:21:43 GMT Scroogerello said:

Also, in the original English dialogue of this story, Grandma Duck supposedly refers to Scrooge as "Cousin Scrooge":
coa.inducks.org/story.php?c=W+VP++++4-07

We can remove the word "supposedly". The scan on Inducks is not very big, but I can see Grandma Duck mentioning "cousin Scrooge" in the third panel of the first page:

Even the Italian edition mentions "cugino Paperone" ("cousin Scrooge"):

However, Scrooge doesn't appear in this story. From an historical point of view, it should be noted that this story is from 1953, and so this strange idea (Scrooge and Grandma as cousins) came before the other strange idea (Scrooge and Grandma as sibilings), which according to this thread was first used in 1960.

Mar 25, 2017 13:40:22 GMT Matilda said:

The two S-coded stories are both by Ed Nofziger. I wonder whether he was told that in certain other countries GD and Scrooge were assumed to be siblings, or whether he decided they were on his own.

If there are indeed some S-coded stories which show them as sibilings, I wonder about the same thing: did the authors took that idea from Italian comics, or did they came up with the same idea on their own? I have the same question, of course, regarding how and when this idea ended up in Dutch and German comics.

Anyway, the strange thing is that Dutch and German comics appatrently still use this idea, while I don't recall any post-1999 Italian story to use it.

Mar 25, 2017 13:40:22 GMT Matilda said:

It sounds from the title & description as if "Good Old Exciting Days" is probably the one with the memories of their purported childhood together. Has anyone seen it?

I have seen it after Scroogerello mentioned it: the flashback of Grandma's youth is on pages 2 and 3 of the Italian version (which was edited to fit the 3-tier format). Do you want a scan?

Mar 25, 2017 13:40:22 GMT Matilda said:

I suppose "Cousin Scrooge" could be another instance of applying a family title in a loose sense--shorthand for "he's the uncle of my grandson on Donald's mother's side but he lives nearby and I see him at family gatherings."

I would like to think so, but it's more likely that the writer wasn't smart enough to figure out how Scrooge and Grandma are related, and so he made up that they are cousins.

[Matilda]

Sure, drakeborough, I'd be interested to see scans of the flashback to Grandma Duck's youth in "Good Old Exciting Days," thanks.

[Scrooge MacDuck]

Mar 25, 2017 17:03:04 GMT Matilda said:

Sure, drakeborough, I'd be interested to see scans of the flashback to Grandma Duck's youth in "Good Old Exciting Days," thanks.

Seconded.

[drakeborough]

Ok, so here are the scans of the first three pages of the Italian version (remember, this story was edited from 4-tier to 3-tier, so the Italian version has 14 pages instead of 10).

Page 1 (taken from Inducks):

DONALD: Our days are very exciting, grandma! In your times everything was much more boring!

GRANDMA: You are wrong, Donald!

Page 2:

GRANDMA: My times were full of life and cheerfulness!

DONALD: Really?

GRANDMA: I remember the Saturday night dances, for example! They were a real fun!

CAPTION BOX: "We kids danced with the adults!"

GRANDMA: And the violin contests were very exciting!

DONALD: Oh, really?

CAPTION BOX: "People even came from far away to listen to the players!"

CAPTION BOX: "I wasn't that bad either!"

Page 3:

DONALD: Too bad things are not like that anymore!

GRANDMA: So true! Many farmers moved to the city! Few of us remained!

GRANDMA: You should have seen what kind of big feeds we had!

CAPTION BOX: "The adult worked, and we kids..."

CAPTION BOX: "... only cared about filling our stomachs!"

CAPTION BOX: "At the end, we all got on the wagons and sang at the top of our lungs under the moon!"

The rest of the boring plot revolves around Donald and Daisy convincing Scrooge to provide funds for a Saturday party that serves as a revival of the old days in the countryside. They think that Scrooge will help them because he may also feel nostalgic abut his past, but he says he is not because at the time he worked days and night to become the world's richest duck. Anyway, they convince him to pay and to participate. Everybody goes away from the party because it starts to rain, and after that Scrooge says "The sun is setting and it stopped raining! We can do our walk under the moonlight!" Grandma says it's not the first time it rained (in these parties, I assume), and asks Scrooge to confirm it, but Scroge has felt asleep. Grandma says it's just like in the old times. So, the young duck with sideburns in the flashback may be Scrooge.

[RobbK1]

Mar 25, 2017 18:16:44 GMT drakeborough said:

Ok, so here are the scans of the first three pages of the Italian version (remember, this story was edited from 4-tier to 3-tier, so the Italian version has 14 pages instead of 10).

Page 1 (taken from Inducks):

DONALD: Our days are very exciting, grandma! In your times everything was much more boring!

GRANDMA: You are wrong, Donald!

Page 2:

GRANDMA: My times were full of life and cheerfulness!

DONALD: Really?

GRANDMA: I remember the Saturday night dances, for example! They were a real fun!

CAPTION BOX: "We kids danced with the adults!"

GRANDMA: And the violin contests were very exciting!

DONALD: Oh, really?

CAPTION BOX: "People even came from far away to listen to the players!"

CAPTION BOX: "I wasn't that bad either!"

Page 3:

DONALD: Too bad things are not like that anymore!

GRANDMA: So true! Many farmers moved to the city! Few of us remained!

GRANDMA: You should have seen what kind of big feeds we had!

CAPTION BOX: "The adult worked, and we kids..."

CAPTION BOX: "... only cared about filling our stomachs!"

CAPTION BOX: "At the end, we all got on the wagons and sang at the top of our lungs under the moon!"

The rest of the boring plot revolves around Donald and Daisy convincing Scrooge to provide funds for a Saturday party that serves as a revival of the old days in the countryside. They think that Scrooge will help them because he may also feel nostalgic abut his past, but he says he is not because at the time he worked days and night to become the world's richest duck. Anyway, they convince him to pay and to participate. Everybody goes away from the party because it starts to rain, and after that Scrooge says "The sun is setting and it stopped raining! We can do our walk under the moonlight!" Grandma says it's not the first time it rained (in these parties, I assume), and asks Scrooge to confirm it, but Scroge has felt asleep. Grandma says it's just like in the old times. So, the young duck with sideburns in the flashback may be Scrooge.

No doubt that the young male duck in the story is meant to be young Scrooge, Grandma's brother, who was raised with her.

[drakeborough]

Mar 25, 2017 19:15:00 GMT RobbK1 said:

No doubt that the young male duck in the story is meant to be young Scrooge, Grandma's brother, who was raised with her.

Even if he's meant to be Scrooge, and even if they grew up in the same place, this doesn't mean that they are meant to be brother and sister. See for example this old message of mine from this thread:

Feb 25, 2017 10:50:58 GMT drakeborough said:

Jan 18, 2017 14:43:08 GMT drakeborough said:

Maybe there is an even earlier source. This 2002 DCML message by Luca Boschi seems to suggest that this 1955 story by Martina/Carpi portrays Scrooge and Grandma as sibilings. However, I don't have the story so I can't check.

Now I have the story, and after checking I can say that story does NOT portray Scrooge and Grandma as sibilings; quite the opposite, it implies they are not.

In fact, in part 2 Mickey asks Scrooge if he can see the diary of his first day of school, but Scrooge says that to save money he naver kept one. Grandma Duck says that it doesn't matter, as they attended the same class in their first year of primary school and so her diary can also be used to know what Scrooge did that day. This is what is written in Grandma's diary (my translation): "Our school was in a little rural center of the West, in which I lived together with the parents of young Scrooge McDuck..." By the way, the story also mentions Scrooge's father when young Scrooge says he was given 25 cents by his father (a big part of the flashback is about Scrooge looking for these 25 cents after losing them).

In part 3, Scrooge recalls an earlier line of Grandma Duck (spoken by her in part 2 at the start of the flashback) by thinking "Eh! Eh! I can't read but I can smell! That little girl was right! There's a bad smell here..."

Since this story doesn't portray them as sibilings, then the earliest known source to do so is still that 1960 combination of poetry+painting.

By the way, Robb, are there any news on your young Scrooge story, or your story set in the past with lookalikes of Grandma Duck, Gus and Grandpa Duck?

[drakeborough]

Mar 25, 2017 16:50:06 GMT drakeborough said:

Mar 25, 2017 12:21:43 GMT Scroogerello said:

Also, in the original English dialogue of this story, Grandma Duck supposedly refers to Scrooge as "Cousin Scrooge":
coa.inducks.org/story.php?c=W+VP++++4-07

We can remove the word "supposedly". The scan on Inducks is not very big, but I can see Grandma Duck mentioning "cousin Scrooge" in the third panel of the first page:

I was looking at this scan again, and I think there is something strange in the third panel: does Grandma say "my nephew Donald"? Saying that Scrooge is her cousin is bad enough, but saying that Donald is her nephew rather than grandson is even worse. Does anyone have a bigger scan of this page so that the dialogue can be read without ambiguity?

[Scroogerello]

GD does indeed refer to Donald as her nephew in that story. In this sequence in the story "Too Much Mush", Grandma Duck's fiancé, Myron, also refers to Donald as GD's nephew.

It's kinda strange, especially since I believe that, in that same story, Myron also specifically refers to GD as Donald's grandmother. Also, the story mentions that Myron left GD to seek his fortune "58 years ago", which would probably make GD too old to be Donald's aunt...

[drakeborough]

Like you say, it's really strange. In Italy we use the same word ("nipote") to indicate the son/daughter of your son/daughter and to indicate the son/daughter of your brother/sister, but the English language does not have this ambiguity, and have a clear distintion between grandson/granddaughter and nephew/niece. So why would Donald be referred to as Grandma's nephew even though he is said to be Donald's grandmother in the same story? I am puzzled. I hope these are the only two stories where Donald is referred to as Grandma's niece.

By the way, I guess that after the appearance of this Myron guy there's no mention of Grandma's late husband, is it correct?