Grandma Duck as Scrooge's sister: where does it come from ?

[sirtao]

May 5, 2017 7:38:28 GMT drakeborough said:

so there's no doubt as to whose grandmother she is meant to be.

Not really: there is no doubt whose RELATIVE she is meant to be.

She's Donald's relatives everybody call "Grandma". Therefore she's "HIS「Grandma」".
It's an informal addressing.

It's sufficiently vague to be interpreted both ways.

[RobbK1]

There is NO chance that Bob Karp and Al Taliaferro had even heard of Gideon McDuck and his being Scrooge's brother. Clearly, US Disney Studio's policy was to allow for Scrooge to have siblings. It was extremely abnormal for parents to have an "only child" in the later mid 1800s, and later 1800s. My father's parents had 11 and 10 siblings. THAT was more the norm.

[Baar Baar Jinx]

May 6, 2017 0:56:47 GMT RobbK1 said:

There is NO chance that Bob Karp and Al Taliaferro had even heard of Gideon McDuck and his being Scrooge's brother.

Oh, of course. I don't think anyone on the DCF seriously entertained the idea that Karp/Taliaferro had Gideon in mind when that gag was written. It was just an example of our attempting to fit everything retroactively into an overarching continuity, for the sheer fun and challenge of it. Still, Grandma's (and now that the gag has been reposted in the context of other Taliaferro art of the era, it is clear that is Grandma) comments here are strange; one the one hand she states that she "knows the family history", suggesting she is an observer of the McDuck family, not a member (this isn't a phrase a close family member would use), yet she says in the next panel that she "remembers" something from Scrooge's childhood, suggesting she knew him at that age. So it's unclear what relationship exactly Karp/Taliaferro were going for here.  

[RobbK1]

May 6, 2017 3:08:37 GMT Baar Baar Jinx said:

May 6, 2017 0:56:47 GMT RobbK1 said:

There is NO chance that Bob Karp and Al Taliaferro had even heard of Gideon McDuck and his being Scrooge's brother.

Oh, of course. I don't think anyone on the DCML seriously entertained the idea that Karp/Taliaferro had Gideon in mind when that gag was written. It was just an example of our attempting to fit everything retroactively into an overarching continuity, for the sheer fun and challenge of it. Still, Grandma's (and now that the gag has been reposted in the context of other Taliaferro art of the era, it is clear that is Grandma) comments here are strange; one the one hand she states that she "knows the family history", suggesting she is an observer of the McDuck family, not a member (this isn't a phrase a close family member would use), yet she says in the next panel that she "remembers" something from Scrooge's childhood, suggesting she knew him at that age. So it's unclear what relationship exactly Karp/Taliaferro were going for here.  

I think that they had NO plan for defining the family relationships, and, therefore, tried to keep it as ambiguous and flexible as possible, and still allow their jokes to work (just as Barks did).  The only times they tried to define family relationships was when The Disney Company ordered them to do so, as in the case of Professor Ludwig Von Drake.

[drakeborough]

May 5, 2017 21:49:24 GMT sirtao said:

May 5, 2017 7:38:28 GMT drakeborough said:

so there's no doubt as to whose grandmother she is meant to be.

Not really: there is no doubt whose RELATIVE she is meant to be.

She's Donald's relatives everybody call "Grandma". Therefore she's "HIS「Grandma」".
It's an informal addressing.

It's sufficiently vague to be interpreted both ways.

I am not sure if you are talking about the Paperino Paperotto series (since this part of our discussion started with a mention of Grandma and young Donald), or to the Italian stories in general, or to duck stories in general regardless of the country of origin. Anyway, it's true that everybody calls her "Grandma" or "Grandma Duck", but that's because it has been established since 1950 that "Grandma Duck" is sort of a public nickname that is also used by unrelated people (similar to the "Grandpa Beagle" nickname), and because she had no establshed first name until recently. Anyway, generic people who call her "Grandma (Duck)" never refer to her as "my grandmother", while Donald does: that's why I say it is obvious that she is meant to be Donald's grandmother.

May 6, 2017 0:56:47 GMT RobbK1 said:

There is NO chance that Bob Karp and Al Taliaferro had even heard of Gideon McDuck and his being Scrooge's brother.

I agree.

May 6, 2017 0:56:47 GMT RobbK1 said:

Clearly, US Disney Studio's policy was to allow for Scrooge to have siblings. It was extremely abnormal for parents to have an "only child" in the later mid 1800s, and later 1800s. My father's parents had 11 and 10 siblings. THAT was more the norm.

Surely Scrooge couldn't be an only child, since otherwise he couldn't become an uncle. And he obviously is Donald's maternal uncle since they have different surnames, but that doesn't rule out the possibility of him having one or more brothers. Anyway, I don't think Karp and Taliaferro had to ask Disney Studio the permission to mention a brother of Scrooge in a comic strip.

May 6, 2017 3:08:37 GMT Baar Baar Jinx said:

May 6, 2017 0:56:47 GMT RobbK1 said:

There is NO chance that Bob Karp and Al Taliaferro had even heard of Gideon McDuck and his being Scrooge's brother.

Oh, of course. I don't think anyone on the DCF seriously entertained the idea that Karp/Taliaferro had Gideon in mind when that gag was written. It was just an example of our attempting to fit everything retroactively into an overarching continuity, for the sheer fun and challenge of it.

I don't know about that DCF discussion, but the Disney Wiki quote I posted in my last message is a bit more ambiguous, and it isn't clear if they are suggesting that the brother may be retroactively identified as Gideon, or if they are suggesting that Karp/Taliaferro had Gideon in mind when this gag was written.

May 6, 2017 3:08:37 GMT Baar Baar Jinx said:

Still, Grandma's (and now that the gag has been reposted in the context of other Taliaferro art of the era, it is clear that is Grandma) comments here are strange; one the one hand she states that she "knows the family history", suggesting she is an observer of the McDuck family, not a member (this isn't a phrase a close family member would use), yet she says in the next panel that she "remembers" something from Scrooge's childhood, suggesting she knew him at that age. So it's unclear what relationship exactly Karp/Taliaferro were going for here.

My idea is simply that they were implied to have grown up in the same city/village and knew each other: if this were the case then she is old enough to remember something like Scrooge giving chicken pox to his brother. This would require ignoring the fact that Scrooge comes from Scotland, but it's not like there are not other stories ignoring it (not to mention, Scrooge from the newspaper comics has many differences from his comic book persona, like the fact that he lives in another city and smokes a pipe). Alternatively, we may assume that his Scottish origins are not ignored and he just came to the USA at a very early age (again, this is not the only story to use this idea).

[Baar Baar Jinx]

May 5, 2017 21:49:24 GMT sirtao said:

May 5, 2017 7:38:28 GMT drakeborough said:

so there's no doubt as to whose grandmother she is meant to be.

Not really: there is no doubt whose RELATIVE she is meant to be.

She's Donald's relatives everybody call "Grandma". Therefore she's "HIS「Grandma」".
It's an informal addressing.

It's sufficiently vague to be interpreted both ways.

BTW, in the ten-pager from WDC&S 83, Barks has Donald refer to Grandma as the boys' grandmother, not his grandmother. That's also the story where Barks strangely has Donald mention Mickey.

[drakeborough]

May 9, 2017 18:32:51 GMT Baar Baar Jinx said:

BTW, in the ten-pager from WDC&S 83, Barks has Donald refer to Grandma as the boys' grandmother, not his grandmother. That's also the story where Barks strangely has Donald mention Mickey.

Donald's line "send my nephews to their grandma's" sounds a little strange indeed. I guess it has to do with the fact that the English language requires a pronoun instead of an article as in other languages (an Italian would say "send my nephew to the grandma's", which wouldn't work in English); that, and the fact that "send my nephews to our grandma's" sounds even more awkward, may explain why Barks chose to use "their". I don't think the line denies the fact that "their grandma" is also Donald's grandmother, and unless Barks was referring to HDL's paternal grandmother then there is too much evidence that Barks saw GD as Donald's grandmother.

The Mickey reference is also strange, and I wonder if Barks decided to put it there or if the editor requested it. Well, he is not explicitly said to be Mickey Mouse, so he could be any other Mickey as far as we know.

[Baar Baar Jinx]

May 9, 2017 19:30:18 GMT drakeborough said:

May 9, 2017 18:32:51 GMT Baar Baar Jinx said:

BTW, in the ten-pager from WDC&S 83, Barks has Donald refer to Grandma as the boys' grandmother, not his grandmother. That's also the story where Barks strangely has Donald mention Mickey.

Donald's line "send my nephews to their grandma's" sounds a little strange indeed. I guess it has to do with the fact that the English language requires a pronoun instead of an article as in other languages (an Italian would say "send my nephew to the grandma's", which wouldn't work in English); that, and the fact that "send my nephews to our grandma's" sounds even more awkward, may explain why Barks chose to use "their". I don't think the line denies the fact that "their grandma" is also Donald's grandmother, and unless Barks was referring to HDL's paternal grandmother then there is too much evidence that Barks saw GD as Donald's grandmother.

The Mickey reference is also strange, and I wonder if Barks decided to put it there or if the editor requested it. Well, he is not explicitly said to be Mickey Mouse, so he could be any other Mickey as far as we know.

Donald could have easily said "send my nephews to Grandma's" which would have maintained the usual ambiguity. We know that Barks himself believed Grandma Duck was Donald's grandmother (based on his unofficial tree), so it's unclear why he chose to phrase this statement the way he did. 

The Mickey reference was discussed on another thread. As I mentioned there, I doubt Barks had another Mickey in mind, but as someone who believes that Mice and Ducks don't mix, I would prefer Donald be talking about any Mickey other than Mickey Mouse.

[drakeborough]

May 9, 2017 19:41:45 GMT Baar Baar Jinx said:

Donald could have easily said "send my nephews to Grandma's" which would have maintained the usual ambiguity. We know that Barks himself believed Grandma Duck was Donald's grandmother (based on his unofficial tree), so it's unclear why he chose to phrase this statement the way he did.

Indeed, it's unclear why he didn't say "send my nephews to Grandma's". I guess it had to do with the fact that the use of "Grandma (Duck)" as the character's nickname is an idea that wasn't invented until 1948 for illustrated stories and 1950 for comic book stories, while this story is from 1947: maybe Barks thought that it would have sounded strange to have no words between "to" and "grandma's".

May 9, 2017 19:41:45 GMT Baar Baar Jinx said:

The Mickey reference was discussed on another thread. As I mentioned there, I doubt Barks had another Mickey in mind, but as someone who believes that Mice and Ducks don't mix, I would prefer Donald be talking about any Mickey other than Mickey Mouse.

Thanks for linking that thread, I must have forgotten it (if I ever read it); now I'll read it after sending this message. I also like to think that it was some other Mickey, though like you said he was probably meant to be Mickey Mouse. He is also called Topolino (Italian name for Mickey Mouse) in the Italian edition of the story.

[Scroogerello]

May 2, 2017 15:54:49 GMT Baar Baar Jinx said:

Related question: in any universe where Grandma and Scrooge are siblings, is it automatically also assumed that Grandma is Donald's mother? Otherwise, Scrooge would be Donald's granduncle.

EDIT: Based on some of the trees above, I guess this isn't always the case.

As far as I know, Grandma has never been said to be Donald's mother, not even in productions where she's Scrooge's sister (her being listed as Donald's mother in that German family tree was a rather obviously mistake; see the couple of unknown characters next to her; they were supposed to be Donald's parents. This info is taken from the "Calisota online" description of the tree:

In this tree, she isn't Donald's grandma, neither is she her mother, she's just his aunt and Scrooge's sister. On the poster, there is a wrong link telling she is a Mr Wasserhuhn's wife and Donald's mother, but in the book, this part of the tree is reprinted in black and white, and we see that the link is in fact between the Mr Wasserhuhn and the Duck lady at his left (though, it doesn't explain why a Mr Wasserhuhn and a Mrs Wasserhuhn née Duck can have children named Duck, it must be still a mistake in the tree, that should be Mr Duck and Mrs Duck née Wasserhuhn). The "?" that stands before Grandma's name is a mistake too, and is removed in the book.

[drakeborough]

May 9, 2017 20:53:34 GMT Scroogerello said:

As far as I know, Grandma has never been said to be Donald's mother, not even in productions where she's Scrooge's sister

True, and this fact makes productions where she is Scrooge's sister really annoying because Scrooge is said to be Donald's uncle and HDL's greatuncle, not Donald's greatuncle and HDL's great-greatuncle. But I'll not expand on this point or we will end up running in circles and repeating the same things over and over.

[rasterax]

In Johnny Grote's book "Der Stammbaum der Ducks", where the German family tree comes from, Grandma is Donald's adoptive and assumed biological mother, and it's a family secret that Donald and his mentally disabled brother are actually her sister's kids. Grandma took them in after her sister committed suicide.

And no, this isn't based on an actual story. ;-)

[drakeborough]

May 10, 2017 9:39:31 GMT rasterax said:

In Johnny Grote's book "Der Stammbaum der Ducks", where the German family tree comes from, Grandma is Donald's adoptive and assumed biological mother, and it's a family secret that Donald and his mentally disabled brother are actually her sister's kids. Grandma took them in after her sister committed suicide.

And no, this isn't based on an actual story. ;-)

Really?

So, this Grote guy was so fond of the Grandma-and-Scrooge-are-sibilngs idea that, in order to defend it, he came to the point of inventing this contrived nonsense?

Plus, even assuming that you can somehow fool everyone into believing you sister's son is your son, why would Donald call her "Grandma" (he also does that in German translations and German stories), if they are trying to trick everybody into believing that she is his biological mother? And what advantage Grote got from this "secret adoption" idea that he couldn't get by saying she actually was her biological mother?

[Minotaur]

May 10, 2017 9:39:31 GMT rasterax said:

In Johnny Grote's book "Der Stammbaum der Ducks", where the German family tree comes from, Grandma is Donald's adoptive and assumed biological mother, and it's a family secret that Donald and his mentally disabled brother are actually her sister's kids. Grandma took them in after her sister committed suicide.

And no, this isn't based on an actual story. ;-)

...don't know how to comment on it. Besides, who is Donald's "mentally disabled brother"?

(I once saw some random guy wrote Hortense and her husband died from accident because "western people generally don't agree on the idea that a daughter of a noble family may marry a country boy", I thought that's the most eccentric idea I have heard, but apparently...)

[RobbK1]

May 10, 2017 10:12:38 GMT drakeborough said:

May 10, 2017 9:39:31 GMT rasterax said:

In Johnny Grote's book "Der Stammbaum der Ducks", where the German family tree comes from, Grandma is Donald's adoptive and assumed biological mother, and it's a family secret that Donald and his mentally disabled brother are actually her sister's kids. Grandma took them in after her sister committed suicide.

And no, this isn't based on an actual story. ;-)

Really?

So, this Grote guy was so fond of the Grandma-and-Scrooge-are-sibilngs idea that, in order to defend it, he came to the point of inventing this contrived nonsense?

Plus, even assuming that you can somehow fool everyone into believing you sister's son is your son, why would Donald call her "Grandma" (he also does that in German translations and German stories), if they are trying to trick everybody into believing that she is his biological mother? And what advantage Grote got from this "secret adoption" idea that he couldn't get by saying she actually was her biological mother?

Donald calling Grandma Duck "Grandma", on itself, wouldn't affect Grote's "theory", as she IS a Grandma to Huey, Dewey and Louie; and Donald could be calling her that so as to call her what everyone else calls her, so his nephews wouldn't be confused.  When I was young, lots of married couples, who had children, called each other "Mother" and "Father".  My own parents called their own parents "Bubbe and Zeyde", and "Oma and Opa" (Grandmother and Grandfather) in front of us kids.  However, you could counter with the argument that Donald called Elvira/Dora, "Grandma" while a child, being raised by her.  It's a silly theory, in any case, as Grote knows that Disney editors would never allow mention of suicide and mentally disabled characters.