Donald calling Grandma Duck "Grandma", on itself, wouldn't affect Grote's "theory", as she IS a Grandma to Huey, Dewey and Louie; and Donald could be calling her that so as to call her what everyone else calls her, so his nephews wouldn't be confused.
The problem with this idea is that Donald calls her "Grandma" even when the kids are not around. Plus, he refers to her as "my grandmother", and people refers to her as "Donald's grandmother" or, when talking to him, "your grandmother". These facts alone contradict Grote's "theory" (though calling it "theory" sorts of gives it more dignity than it deserves).
Plus, if Grote wanted her to be HDL's grandma then he could have made her Donald's natural mother. This ide would still have the same problems mentioned above, but at least would have avoided that idiotic suicide idea.
When I was young, lots of married couples, who had children, called each other "Mother" and "Father".
Indeed, that's what I saw in Don Rosa's stories: Fergus and Downy, as well as Elvira and her husband, call themselves "pa" and "ma". At first it seemed strange to me, but then I learned it was a normal thing.
Given its copious use of copyrighted intellectual property, one would imagine that Disney would have to approve such a book or would have taken legal action to prevent its sale. Does anyone know if this book does, indeed, have Disney's blessings?
Given its copious use of copyrighted intellectual property, one would imagine that Disney would have to approve such a book or would have taken legal action to prevent its sale. Does anyone know if this book does, indeed, have Disney's blessings?
I haven't read the book, so I can't say if it makes copious use of copyrighted intellectual property or not. But if we assume the book is mostly an essay about Disney comics and includes very few images from the comics themselves, then this would not really violate any intellectual property: you don't need Disney's permission to write an essay about Disney comics.
Given its copious use of copyrighted intellectual property, one would imagine that Disney would have to approve such a book or would have taken legal action to prevent its sale. Does anyone know if this book does, indeed, have Disney's blessings?
I haven't read the book, so I can't say if it makes copious use of copyrighted intellectual property or not. But if we assume the book is mostly an essay about Disney comics and includes very few images from the comics themselves, then this would not really violate any intellectual property: you don't need Disney's permission to write an essay about Disney comics.
If the cover of this book, as depicted on the German Amazon site, is accurate, the cover art has images of the Disney Ducks drawn by Barks. Isn't there a legal barrier to using copyrighted images on the covers of unofficial books? That's why, for example, this scholarly book about Barks' Duck stories only has a silhouette of Donald on the cover:
If the cover of this book, as depicted on the German Amazon site, is accurate, the cover art has images of the Disney Ducks drawn by Barks. Isn't there a legal barrier to using copyrighted images on the covers of unofficial books? That's why, for example, this scholarly book about Barks' Duck stories only has a silhouette of Donald on the cover:
I am not an expert on copyright issues, but I think something as simple as imges of Barks' ducks (from the comics?) is an example of fair use and thus does not violate copyright, as long as the content of the book is mostly about original material, with limited use of copyrighted works. Of course, as the article I linked shows, the exact boundaries of fair use (and its variation from one country to another one) are not always easy to determine.
If the cover of this book, as depicted on the German Amazon site, is accurate, the cover art has images of the Disney Ducks drawn by Barks. Isn't there a legal barrier to using copyrighted images on the covers of unofficial books? That's why, for example, this scholarly book about Barks' Duck stories only has a silhouette of Donald on the cover:
I am not an expert on copyright issues, but I think something as simple as images of Barks' ducks (from the comics?) is an example of fair use and thus does not violate copyright, as long as the content of the book is mostly about original material, with limited use of copyrighted works. Of course, as the article I linked shows, the exact boundaries of fair use (and its variation from one country to another one) are not always easy to determine.
The publisher of Grote's book, Georg F. Tempel, has the franchise, given from Ehapa (publisher of German Micky Maus, and rights holder to publish all Disney comics-related material in Germany) to publish The Carl Barks Library in Colour (album series). And Grote's book is printed in exactly the same format, seemingly as an added appendix feature of that series. So, a priori, it HAS official approval from The Walt Disney Company, through its franchise holder, Ehapa Verlag GMbh.
Donald calling Grandma Duck "Grandma", on itself, wouldn't affect Grote's "theory", as she IS a Grandma to Huey, Dewey and Louie; and Donald could be calling her that so as to call her what everyone else calls her, so his nephews wouldn't be confused.
The problem with this idea is that Donald calls her "Grandma" even when the kids are not around. Plus, he refers to her as "my grandmother", and people refers to her as "Donald's grandmother" or, when talking to him, "your grandmother". These facts alone contradict Grote's "theory" (though calling it "theory" sorts of gives it more dignity than it deserves).
Plus, if Grote wanted her to be HDL's grandma then he could have made her Donald's natural mother. This ide would still have the same problems mentioned above, but at least would have avoided that idiotic suicide idea.
When I was young, lots of married couples, who had children, called each other "Mother" and "Father".
Indeed, that's what I saw in Don Rosa's stories: Fergus and Downy, as well as Elvira and her husband, call themselves "pa" and "ma". At first it seemed strange to me, but then I learned it was a normal thing.
So how did this Grote book get published? Or is it not an official Disney publication and Disney simply doesn't know or care?
I assume it's not an official book, so Grote could write anything he wanted.
It IS an official Disney book, published by Georg F. Tempel, a sub franchise holder, given his franchise through German Disney Comics publisher, Ehapa Verlag.
[...] According to what we have said so far in this thread, the earliest known source to portray them as sibilings is this 1960 poetry. [...]
I don't know if it's been mentioned here, but, according to a reliable Disney comic researcher, in Germany the sibling thing started with the German translation of "Scrooge's Second Childhood", published in Micky Maus in 1958.
UPDATE: I contacted the Disney comic researcher on the German forum and he posted the following image (three non-consecutive panels which he edited together) from the 1958 German edition of "Scrooge's Second Childhood" (the story also had a second German edition in 1997, and the researcher told me the two editions are identical). Anyway, in these panels Scrooge is referred to as Grandma's "bruder" (German word for "brother"):
Here are the first two panels from the original 1956 American version (I also edited them together):
Neither panel mentions a supposed siblinghood between them, so the bruder/brother reference is a gratuitous addition made by the German translator. I suppose the bruder reference in the third panel is also an addition by the translator, but I'd like to see an image of the same panel from the American version.
So, it is conclusively proven that this 1958 German translation of an American story from 1956 refers to Scrooge and Grandma as sibilings, predating by two years the earliest known Italian work which does the same thing. And since I don't think Italian writers had access to German translations of American stories, we must conclude that this is a case of different authors in different countries coming to the same conclusion independently from each other. The identity of the translator (Erika Fuchs? Someone else?) is still unknown, or at least the German researcher didn't mention it in his message. It's also unknown (at least to me) if the idea was used often in German translations from late 1950's/early 1960's, or if the idea was not used again for many years.
Now that we know when the sibiling thing was started in Germany and Italy, it would be interesting to check when it started in the Netherlands. Anyway, unless some other pre-1958 work with the sibiling idea shows up, I think the original question of this thread has now been answered.
Last Edit: May 15, 2017 15:48:10 GMT by drakeborough
Related question: in any universe where Grandma and Scrooge are siblings, is it automatically also assumed that Grandma is Donald's mother? Otherwise, Scrooge would be Donald's granduncle.
For Italian and Dutch stories we already answered this (long story short: Grandma is Donald's grandmother, Scrooge is Donald's uncle, and yet they are, or were, portrayed as sibilings even though it doesn't make sense). As for German stories, the discussion that is currently going on in that German form (following my initial question) seems to indicate that in old German translations Grandma Duck was Donald's aunt rather than grandmother, though it's not clear if this idea was inspired by Scrooge and Grandma being portrayed as sibilings, or vice versa.
Here are four examples from old German translations in which Donald is Grandma's "neffe" ("nephew"), Daisy is Grandma's "nichte" ("niece"), and HDL are Grandma's "neffen" ("nephews", the implication being that it is short for grandnephews):
The first panel is from an untitled story written by an unknown writer and drawn by Tony Strobl. American edition: One Shots #995 (May 1959); German edition: Die tollsten Geschichten von Donald Duck (Sonderheft) #39 (12 November 1974). There is an earlier German edition from 1960, but it seems it has nothing worth mentioning.
The second panel is from You Can't Guess by Carl Barks. American edition: Walt Disney's Christmas Parade #2 (November 1950); German edition: Micky Maus Sonderheft #8 (11 November 1953).
The third and fourth panels are from Grandma Duck Moves To The City, written by Ed Nofziger and drawn by Tony Strobl. First published in Italy on 12 June 1977; the German edition is from Donald Duck #190 (29 January 1982).
The fifth, sixth and seventh panels are from Grandma Duck And Her Stork, written by Ed Nofziger and drawn by Tony Strobl. First published in Brazil and Italy in December 1977; the German edition is from Donald Duck #170 (11 September 1981).
The German user also said, without adding details, that the "Grandma as Donald's aunt" idea is not universally accepted by modern German translators.
I don't know if it's been mentioned here, but, according to a reliable Disney comic researcher, in Germany the sibling thing started with the German translation of "Scrooge's Second Childhood", published in Micky Maus in 1958.
Now that we know when the sibiling thing was started in Germany and Italy, it would be interesting to check when it started in the Netherlands. Anyway, unless some other pre-1958 work with the sibling idea shows up, I think the original question of this thread has now been answered.
I'm not sure, because it was a long time ago. But, I think most of the early years of Dutch Disney comic books had Grandma being Donald's grandmother, and Scrooge as his uncle. I don't remember any mention of Scrooge and Grandma being siblings until the late 1980s or 1990s. Maybe that idea also came from Germany or Italy.
I was wondering; do the Brazilian stories also have a tradition of portraying Scrooge and Grandma as siblings? I came across this Brazilian story today: inducks.org/story.php?c=B+820168 , which shows Scrooge and Grandma together during their childhood on the farm, (with their grandmother "Hortensia", who looks identical to Grandma Duck) so I assume that they are brother and sister here as well. Does anyone know more about it?
Also, although perhaps not entirely befitting of this topic: Scrooge's mother in this story: inducks.org/story.php?c=I+TL++697-B , (which has a storyline that's very, very similar to that of Don Rosa's "Of Ducks, Dimes and Destines", by the way) looks quite a lot like Grandma Duck, although it is not specified whether she is also Grandma Duck's mother or not.
I was wondering; do the Brazilian stories also have a tradition of portraying Scrooge and Grandma as siblings? I came across this Brazilian story today: inducks.org/story.php?c=B+820168 , which shows Scrooge and Grandma together during their childhood on the farm, (with their grandmother "Hortensia", who looks identical to Grandma Duck) so I assume that they are brother and sister here as well. Does anyone know more about it?
Also, although perhaps not entirely befitting of this topic: Scrooge's mother in this story: inducks.org/story.php?c=I+TL++697-B , (which has a storyline that's very, very similar to that of Don Rosa's "Of Ducks, Dimes and Destines", by the way) looks quite a lot like Grandma Duck, although it is not specified whether she is also Grandma Duck's mother or not.
Scrooge's mother Oretta Paporetta in the Storia e Gloria also resembles a glass-less Grandma Duck:
But oh God, I want to read that you mention story so badly now. What role does Scrooge's mother play there? At what period of his life does Magica go back? Does it show Scrooge as growing up in the West?!
I was wondering; do the Brazilian stories also have a tradition of portraying Scrooge and Grandma as siblings? I came across this Brazilian story today: inducks.org/story.php?c=B+820168 , which shows Scrooge and Grandma together during their childhood on the farm, (with their grandmother "Hortensia", who looks identical to Grandma Duck) so I assume that they are brother and sister here as well. Does anyone know more about it?
Also, although perhaps not entirely befitting of this topic: Scrooge's mother in this story: inducks.org/story.php?c=I+TL++697-B , (which has a storyline that's very, very similar to that of Don Rosa's "Of Ducks, Dimes and Destines", by the way) looks quite a lot like Grandma Duck, although it is not specified whether she is also Grandma Duck's mother or not.
Scrooge's mother Oretta Paporetta in the Storia e Gloria also resembles a glass-less Grandma Duck:
But oh God, I want to read that you mention story so badly now. What role does Scrooge's mother play there? At what period of his life does Magica go back? Does it show Scrooge as growing up in the West?!
Scrooge's mother and father only appear in a few panels (see attachment). And yeah, the story does portray duckling Scrooge as living in the West.
Attachments:
Last Edit: Apr 15, 2018 23:31:11 GMT by Scroogerello
