Elroy, Ellsworth, Pluto, Goofy, what's an animal and what's a person

[drakeborough]

Jun 28, 2017 8:56:13 GMT Scrooge MacDuck said:

Jun 27, 2017 21:50:20 GMT drakeborough said:

I think the few instances suggesting that the Looney Tunes characters are just actors playing roles in their cartoons should be taken with a grain of salt, just like when the same suggestion is made for Disney characters.

Well, it's a tad more complicated, but what pops up very often is a mild fourth-wall-breaking that seems to imply the "films" are just being done by putting the Toons in a set, giving them a vague idea who they are supposed to be, getting the cameras rolling, and then letting them be themselves. Though of course a grain of salt is always welcome, the idea is much more solid about the Looney Tunes, since it is, in several cases, featured (more or less prominently) in the cartoons themselves, whereas the Disney cartoons being films was only invented for comics and anthology TV specials. 

Well, as I said an not a big expert on Looney Tunes, so I don't know how often they used this idea of characters playing roles, but if you said they used it more often than Disney ever did then I have no reason to doubt this. Maybe I will read TV Tropes' article about "Animated Actors" one of these days.

Jun 28, 2017 8:58:04 GMT Scrooge MacDuck said:

Jun 27, 2017 21:50:33 GMT RobbK1 said:

A few cartoon shorts had Goofy having a wife and a son (both of whom were unnamed (I think they used "Mrs. Goofy" once).

We discussed those already, and drakeborough's reading is that those definitely fall in the "the characters are playing a role" category, where the Goofy we see is just one Goofy lookalike in a world full of Goofy lookalikes, and not actually the Goofy we're used to seeing. Mind you, I disagree, but the point is, this argument won't convince him.

I am curious about something: I can understand why you would accept Goof Troop and derivates, and Max' character in general, as being part of your headcanon. But what is your objection to the idea of George Geef not being the real Goofy? I think the producers of these shorts made the idea clear in many ways, including giving him a different name.

Unrelated to what I said above, but related to the subject of this thread: who came up with the terms "dognose" and "dogface" (which I guess are fan-made words) and when? And what is the exact definition of them? I thought they were used to indicate characters who were basically 4-fingered humans with a round black nose (and, sometimes, dog ears) in opposition to the more generic term "anthropomorphic dog"... and yet I see that Wikipedia regards them as having the same meaning, since the article Dogface (comics) claims that "The most famous Dogface is probably Goofy".

[drakeborough]

Jun 28, 2017 10:19:27 GMT Scrooge MacDuck said:

Jun 28, 2017 10:16:16 GMT drakeborough said:

Actually, the wife was known as "Mrs. Geef", since she wasn't really Goofy's wife but rather the wife of a Goofy lookalike named "George Geef". And the son was named "Junior". We already discussed this on this very thread, but the subject was quickly dropped because it was OT; maybe we could open a separate thread about it. 

Yeah, maybe we should do another thread. To be honest, after seeing the cartoons, I simply thought of George Geef as the "real name" of Goofy. After all, "Goofy" is probably just a nickname…

It seems that our messages are overlapping, as by the time I finish writing a message with a question you have already published a message that coincidentally contains the answer. Good to see that the you liked the idea of opening another thread.

As for Goofy's name: "Goofy" started as a nickname of "Dippy Dawg", so if the producers of Goofy cartoons of the 50's and 60's wanted a full name they could have used that. No, I think "George Geef" wasn't meant to be Goofy real name but just one of the many clues to the audience that we weren't supposed to think of him as the real Goofy but rather as just a Goofy lookalike. I guess that finding an interview to the producers, or reviews from animation historians, would help clarify the issue.

[Baar Baar Jinx]

Jun 27, 2017 21:50:33 GMT RobbK1 said:

a few cartoon shorts had Goofy having a wife and a son (both of whom were unnamed (I think they used "Mrs. Goofy" once.

The Big Bad Wolf was named "Zeke" (Short for Ezekial) in the English language Disney Comics.

Donald had a son too, in one 1959 cartoon, "How to Have an Accident at Work". You could argue he's playing an actor here, and Daisy and one of the nephews are playing his wife and son, respectively, but it's not clear what the producers really intended, since he's called "Mr. Duck".

Perhaps we can move some of these messages to a thread about the portrayal of Duck and Mouse characters in the cartoons?

[Zantaf]

Jun 28, 2017 10:16:16 GMT drakeborough said:

Jun 25, 2017 20:46:03 GMT drakeborough said:

... All was left is to determine which issue used the name Zeke first, and the candidates were WDC&S #65, #66 and #67.

I think we can safely say that the name Zeke was first used in W WDC 65-04. It first appears on baby Zeke's high chair on page 3.

[drakeborough]

Jun 28, 2017 12:11:44 GMT Baar Baar Jinx said:

Perhaps we can move some of these messages to a thread about the portrayal of Duck and Mouse characters in the cartoons?

I opened a new thread: George Geef and Junior, Goofy and Max, Donald's son. I also copied there the relevant messages from this thread.

Jun 28, 2017 13:03:18 GMT Zantaf said:

I think we can safely say that the name Zeke was first used in W WDC 65-04. It first appears on baby Zeke's high chair on page 3.

Thanks for the answer: I'll repost the image below:

I guess the name is used in other parts of the story in addition to the panel with the high chair, right? And was the name quickly picked up in the following stories, or did it took a while before the name was used again?

Also, was the middle name Midas a one-time thing, or was it used multiple times? And are there other stories with Zeke's parents? They appear in W WDC 65-04 (the story from which you took the scan) according to Inducks, and whatevs added that "As an aside, Zeke is referred to as "Ezekiel Wolf" in W WDC 73-04 by his mother". However, Inducks doesn't list her in that story: does she appear? And if so, does she look like the previous version of Zeke's mother?

[Zantaf]

Jun 28, 2017 13:47:55 GMT drakeborough said:

Jun 28, 2017 12:11:44 GMT Baar Baar Jinx said:

Perhaps we can move some of these messages to a thread about the portrayal of Duck and Mouse characters in the cartoons?

I opened a new thread: George Geef and Junior, Goofy and Max, Donald's son. I also copied there the relevant messages from this thread.

Jun 28, 2017 13:03:18 GMT Zantaf said:

I think we can safely say that the name Zeke was first used in W WDC 65-04. It first appears on baby Zeke's high chair on page 3.

Thanks for the answer: I'll repost the image below:

I guess the name is used in other parts of the story in addition to the panel with the high chair, right? And was the name quickly picked up in the following stories, or did it took a while before the name was used again?

Also, was the middle name Midas a one-time thing, or was it used multiple times? And are there other stories with Zeke's parents? They appear in W WDC 65-04 (the story from which you took the scan) according to Inducks, and whatevs added that "As an aside, Zeke is referred to as "Ezekiel Wolf" in W WDC 73-04 by his mother". However, Inducks doesn't list her in that story: does she appear? And if so, does she look like the previous version of Zeke's mother?

The name Zeke is used another four times in the story. In the following stories (up to W WDC 73-04) The Big Bad Wolf is not referred to by any name. Then, in W WDC 73-04, as mentioned by whatevs, he is referred to as "Ezekiel Wolf" by his mother. Regarding Zeke's mother, I think it's obvious that the Inducks characters "BW's mother" and "Grandma Wolf" are the same person. "Grandma Wolf" has been portrayed in many different ways by different artists, but whenever she appears, she is clearly referred to and/or acts as Zeke's mother.

[Matilda]

Just ran across a unique instance of anthropomorphized dogs in a Don Christensen story, "The Poodle People" in Mickey Mouse 52. Mickey, Morty & Ferdie, and Pluto are on a boat on a jungle river, with Mickey filming nature movies. They run into the Poodle People, who are "of canine origin" but "very advanced"--they look quite dog-like, but walk on two legs, wear skirt-like clothing, live in houses, keep cats as pets, etc. They are initially fooled into thinking that Pluto is a very wise dog-person whose barking is "the tongue of the ancients"--but Pluto's true nature as a regular dog is revealed when he chases one of their cats. Happily, they are distracted from attacking Mickey & Co. by deciding to try some cat-chasing themselves: "Perhaps it wouldn't hurt if we retained at least a few of our old doggy ways! / Aye! Just for old times' sake!"

Of course, Mickey, Morty & Ferdie have to be thought of as regular humans...and it's Very Noticeable that Morty & Ferdie are accompanying Mickey on this adventure rather than Goofy! The presence of Goofy would have made this story about nearly-human anthropomorphic dogs even more surreal. This story may not be that different in its approach to the anthropomorphism issue than the stories where the Ducks meet enhanced, talking, civilized penguins, but the fact that Goofy is in the back of this reader's mind made it weirder.

My favorite lines: Mickey (first encounter with spear-wielding Poodles): "Wait! Wait! Friends! We come seeum! You heap peaceful...savvy?" Poodle People: "Will you listen to his crude chatter! / No wonder they ventured among the sacred crocodiles! Fools! / Aye! No look of intelligence such as we dogs possess!" I just loved that mocking of the way Indians/"savages" were depicted as speaking broken English. Pretty good for a kids' comic in 1957!

[sirredknee]

Some of the strangest sights I've come across in Disney comics have been Pluto as a king's guard on two legs in "The Brave Little Tailor" and Bolivar as a judge in "Topolino e il cobra bianco", both talking, too! The Mickey-sized Gus and Jaq in "Mousepotemia" took some getting used to as well, although that made kind of sense.

[Baar Baar Jinx]

A precursor to Kinney/Hubbard's infamous duck-hunting tale ...

[Scrooge MacDuck]

Aug 1, 2017 13:57:32 GMT Baar Baar Jinx said:

A precursor to Kinney/Hubbard's infamous duck-hunting tale ...

Not nearly as problematic, though. The animal-duck doesn't look the least bit sentient, at least.

[Baar Baar Jinx]

Aug 1, 2017 14:04:58 GMT Scrooge MacDuck said:

Not nearly as problematic, though. The animal-duck doesn't look the least bit sentient, at least.

Yes, and Donald and the nephew are not having an existential crisis at the idea of duck-hunting. I just thought it was interesting given our recent discussion about "The Retriever".
Might be fun to open a thread about stories where the Ducks hunt ducks (drakeborough stated earlier that there were a few).

[drakeborough]

Aug 1, 2017 13:57:32 GMT Baar Baar Jinx said:

A precursor to Kinney/Hubbard's infamous duck-hunting tale ...

I had that in mind while we were discussing the Kinney/Hubbard tale, though I couldn't find it on Inducks. What is the date of the strip? It seems to be "2/25/12", which of course doesn't make sense, and it's not even "2/25/42". Anyway, the scene is not problematic at all for me, unlike that Kinney scene.

And since the title of the thread mentions Pluto and Goofy, this was Disney's take on them: "Goofy was created as a human character, as opposed to Pluto, who was a pet, so he walked upright and had a speaking voice". A bit obvious and self-explanatory, but then again, the Pluto-Goofy "issue" is a non-issue.

[drakeborough]

Aug 1, 2017 14:17:38 GMT Baar Baar Jinx said:

Might be fun to open a thread about stories where the Ducks hunt ducks (drakeborough stated earlier that there were a few).

Sunday page of January 27, 1952:



Daily strip of October 17, 1952:



Sunday page of December 8, 1957:

 

Sunday page of April 25, 1965:



Maybe the image I had in mind was not the one you posted but one of these.

[Baar Baar Jinx]

Aug 1, 2017 14:44:44 GMT drakeborough said:

Maybe the image I had in mind was not the one you posted but one of these.

I like how there's not a trace of irony about Donald, Daisy and Scrooge hunting ducks in any of these strips, despite the potential for humor. Taliaferro obviously thought of his Ducks as humans ... the idea that there was something strange or disturbing about them going duck-hunting never seems to have crossed his mind. Which is how it should be.

[RobbK1]

Jun 28, 2017 12:11:44 GMT Baar Baar Jinx said:

Jun 27, 2017 21:50:33 GMT RobbK1 said:

a few cartoon shorts had Goofy having a wife and a son (both of whom were unnamed (I think they used "Mrs. Goofy" once.

The Big Bad Wolf was named "Zeke" (Short for Ezekial) in the English language Disney Comics.

Donald had a son too, in one 1959 cartoon, "How to Have an Accident at Work". You could argue he's playing an actor here, and Daisy and one of the nephews are playing his wife and son, respectively, but it's not clear what the producers really intended, since he's called "Mr. Duck".

Perhaps we can move some of these messages to a thread about the portrayal of Duck and Mouse characters in the cartoons?

We can either assume that Donald, Daisy and Huey were actors just playing roles, OR that these generic "Ducks" are NOT Donald, Daisy and Huey, but just are people that resemble them, as many of the anthropomorphic "ducks" look similar.