Ludwig Von Drake

[Scrooge MacDuck]

Jul 6, 2018 15:02:42 GMT Baar Baar Jinx said:

As to that screenshot of Ludwig from DuckTales '17, I don't mind the design, which is actually pretty good considering the way other characters look, but it's ridiculous that old Ludwig is being used with young(er) Scrooge.  They have always been portrayed as of the same generation. 

That's actually consistent with Scrooge's pseudo-immortality. Scrooge is only alive in the present-day thanks to his stay in Demogorgana, but would still have been an old man in the 1960's. So for Ludwig to also be old in the 1960's implies he is the same generation as Scrooge. 

[Baar Baar Jinx]

Jun 28, 2017 17:12:49 GMT Scrooge MacDuck said:

I am aware of this statement by Walt, and based my theory on it. My headcanon is that Humperdink Duck was briefly married to Mrs Von Drake, but divorced before Ludwig was born, with Humperdink soon remarrying with Elvira and having Quackmore (which makes them half-brothers). Ludwig was raised by his mother alone, hence his accent. 

Also, this is secondary in my theory, and the above can work without it, but I also mix in the idea of Ludwig as being on Daisy's side of the family (as seen in a French pre-Rosa tree) by having Daisy's father be Ludwig's brother Otto, who, having been born earlier, was still named "Duck". This makes Donald and Daisy "half-cousins", so to speak, sharing less than 1/8 of their DNA while still being related.

So what do you think of the theory that Ludwig is the son of one of Grandma's maternal aunts and a "certain Hofrat Von Drake" as apparently stated in "the German translation of Duckburg, U.S.A" ? That's the leading one in my personal headcanon as of now (Ludwig's father's name is negotiable).

[Scrooge MacDuck]

Jul 6, 2018 19:43:12 GMT Baar Baar Jinx said:

Jun 28, 2017 17:12:49 GMT Scrooge MacDuck said:

I am aware of this statement by Walt, and based my theory on it. My headcanon is that Humperdink Duck was briefly married to Mrs Von Drake, but divorced before Ludwig was born, with Humperdink soon remarrying with Elvira and having Quackmore (which makes them half-brothers). Ludwig was raised by his mother alone, hence his accent. 

Also, this is secondary in my theory, and the above can work without it, but I also mix in the idea of Ludwig as being on Daisy's side of the family (as seen in a French pre-Rosa tree) by having Daisy's father be Ludwig's brother Otto, who, having been born earlier, was still named "Duck". This makes Donald and Daisy "half-cousins", so to speak, sharing less than 1/8 of their DNA while still being related.

So what do you think of the theory that Ludwig is the son of one of Grandma's maternal aunts and a "certain Hofrat Von Drake" as apparently stated in "the German translation of Duckburg, U.S.A" ? That's the leading one in my personal headcanon as of now (Ludwig's father's name is negotiable).

I feel perfectly entitled to ignore foreign translations; Ludwig is supposed to be Donald's uncle, not his grandmother's cousin; Ludwig's mother is still alive, which makes her being Grandma's aunt all the more unlikely (though there is Quagmire as a precedent). 

So mostly I ignore it, or if anything, assume someone got the papers mixed up (not surprising where Ludwig is concerned). So a Hofrat Von Drake did marry Elvira maternal aunt but he wasn't Ludwig's father, but rather his great-uncle. 

[Baar Baar Jinx]

Jul 6, 2018 19:50:26 GMT Scrooge MacDuck said:

I feel perfectly entitled to ignore foreign translations; Ludwig is supposed to be Donald's uncle, not his grandmother's cousin; Ludwig's mother is still alive, which makes her being Grandma's aunt all the more unlikely (though there is Quagmire as a precedent). 

So mostly I ignore it, or if anything, assume someone got the papers mixed up (not surprising where Ludwig is concerned). So a Hofrat Von Drake did marry Elvira maternal aunt but he wasn't Ludwig's father, but rather his great-uncle. 

Can someone confirm that this is what the German translation actually says, and if so, does anyone know where they got it from? Also, I had asked this before, but does "Barn Dance Doctor" provide any further details (in what context is the relationship between Grandma and Ludwig brought up)? They are referred to as "cousins" in the INDUCKS entry for this story.

[Scroogerello]

www.comicforum.de/showthread.php?110740-Primus-von-Quack-Verwandtschaft

Here's some German fans discussions the German translation of "Duckburg, U.S.A." at the German Comicforum. I've never read the German translation myself (it's pretty obscure, since the story was only published once in Germany, during the 1960s).

In "Barn Dance Doctor", Grandma refers to Ludwig as her "cityfied cousin"



EDIT: I got the image from the INDUCKS, under the character gallery of either Grandma Duck or Ludwig. It's also cited on Ludwig's Wikipedia page.

[Scrooge MacDuck]

Where did you find that HQ scan?

[Baar Baar Jinx]

Jul 6, 2018 20:14:54 GMT Scroogerello said:

www.comicforum.de/showthread.php?110740-Primus-von-Quack-Verwandtschaft

Here's some German fans discussions the German translation of "Duckburg, U.S.A." at the German Comicforum. I've never read the German translation myself (it's pretty obscure, since the story was only published once in Germany, during the 1960s).

In "Barn Dance Doctor", Grandma refers to Ludwig as her "cityfied cousin"

I tried to translate most of the posts on that German thread, and was hard-pressed to find much new information about the German translation of "Duckburg USA"; there also appeared to be no reference to the exact relationship between Ludwig and Grandma as presented in that story, but it was a struggle for me as the character names are unfamiliar and the translator software messed up quite a few posts. Is the version posted above in this thread correct, according to the thread on the German forum? 

In any case, Grandma referring to Ludwig as her "cousin" in an English story ("Barn Dance Doctor") would support the German version that Ludwig is the son of one her maternal aunts. I don't think it's absolutely impossible age-wise; this "maternal aunt" of Grandma's need not be in one entire generation above Grandma, she could be just ten years older than her (or even younger), and could have had Ludwig at the age of twenty (or even younger), making Ludwig just ten years younger than Grandma (or an even narrower age gap), and the aunt could still conceivably be alive in "present day".

[Scroogerello]

Jul 6, 2018 21:16:05 GMT Baar Baar Jinx said:

there also appeared to be no reference to the exact relationship between Ludwig and Grandma as presented in that story,

Well, there is this quote from a post on the first page of the German thread (which indeed, doesn't supply any info that wasn't previously mentioned on this thread, but still confirms the exact relationship between Grandma and Ludwig according to this story):

In "Duckburg, U.S.A.", Grandma Duck defines her relationship with Ludwig more exactly: "my mother's sister was married to Hofrat Von Drake" (MM 35/62, p.3)

"Hofrat" is not a first name by the way, but a professional title (counselor, I believe).

There's also this quote that I found on another German forum: ( forum.donald.org/read.php?1,2392,2406,quote=1 ), by a member named "Das Schwartze Phantom:

In [Ludwig's] first appearance, Duckburg, U.S.A., Grandma Duck remembers: "my mother often told me about her sister's little boy!"

[Baar Baar Jinx]

It strikes me as remarkable that the German translators went to such lengths to include details about Ludwig's exact place in the Duck Family Tree in that story, while the original English version was typically vague and non-specific. I wonder what prompted them to do so, and where they got their information from? A panel-by-panel comparison of the relevant sections of the original and the German translation would be helpful from a historic/scholarly point of view, but it looks like that would be difficult given the obscurity of the German version.

Re: Ludwig being Donald's uncle rather than his grandmother's cousin, the term "uncle", at least in English, is fairly broad. HD&L, Gladstone and Fethry all call Scrooge their uncle, although technically he is none of theirs. What would Donald call Ludwig other than his uncle, even if Ludwig were his grandmother's maternal aunt's son? I wonder if Rosa would have adopted this place for Ludwig in his own Tree if he had known of it beforehand? Probably not, but it's a shame he didn't; we lost the opportunity of hearing why he thinks it's a terrible idea.

[Matilda]

Jul 7, 2018 0:25:47 GMT Baar Baar Jinx said:

It strikes me as remarkable that the German translators went to such lengths to include details about Ludwig's exact place in the Duck Family Tree in that story, while the original English version was typically vague and non-specific. I wonder what prompted them to do so, and where they got their information from? A panel-by-panel comparison of the relevant sections of the original and the German translation would be helpful from a historic/scholarly point of view, but it looks like that would be difficult given the obscurity of the German version.

Re: Ludwig being Donald's uncle rather than his grandmother's cousin, the term "uncle", at least in English, is fairly broad. HD&L, Gladstone and Fethry all call Scrooge their uncle, although technically he is none of theirs. What would Donald call Ludwig other than his uncle, even if Ludwig were his grandmother's maternal aunt's son? I wonder if Rosa would have adopted this place for Ludwig in his own Tree if he had known of it beforehand? Probably not, but it's a shame he didn't; we lost the opportunity of hearing why he thinks it's a terrible idea.

Scrooge is HDL's great-uncle, and I think most Americans would address their great-uncle as "Uncle Name." Gladstone and Fethry are another matter. I don't personally know anyone who addresses the brother of their aunt-by-marriage (their blood-uncle's brother-in-law) as "Uncle." I'm sure there are people who do this, but it's not a standard thing.

That said, I'm personally OK with Ludwig being Elvira's cousin, and I think it's actually more likely that an American would address their mother's or grandmother's cousin as "Uncle," since it is a blood relationship and there is no name for it. In the other direction, there is a name for that relationship: Donald would be Ludwig's first cousin twice removed. ("Once removed" is a generational step down.) But Ludwig to Donald is just "Grandma's cousin." Donald could call him "Cousin Ludwig," but due to the bi-generational difference, he might instead call him "Uncle Ludwig."

It is certainly possible to have an aunt younger than oneself, and was more likely back in the day before birth control, when a woman could bear children from age 18 to age 40 or so. Even more common if you count half-siblings of parents as aunts. Your mother dies (in childbirth at age 38!), your father marries again and has another set of kids, some of which are younger than your child. The only question is, how did Elvira's aunt meet an Austrian? Who took her to live with him in Austria (hence Ludwig's Viennese origin)? *That* doesn't seem very likely, given the nature of Elvira's family background, pioneer stock, farmers, not likely college-educated....and given the difficulty of trans-oceanic travel back in those days.

[Baar Baar Jinx]

Jul 7, 2018 1:35:18 GMT Matilda said:

The only question is, how did Elvira's aunt meet an Austrian? Who took her to live with him in Austria (hence Ludwig's Viennese origin)? *That* doesn't seem very likely, given the nature of Elvira's family background, pioneer stock, farmers, not likely college-educated....and given the difficulty of trans-oceanic travel back in those days.

Well, we know about Elvira's paternal side (the Coots), to whom the pioneer-stock/frontiersmen/farmer labels apply, but what do we really know about the Gadwalls? I admit that meeting someone from another continent would have been far less likely then, but perhaps Elvira's Grandpa Gadwall was in business (like Scrooge was) and traveled to Europe with his daughter (the "maternal aunt" in question) and she met Von Drake Sr. there, or perhaps Von Drake Sr., on a trip to North America, stayed at the Gadwall Family Inn (or some such) and fell in love with the innkeeper's daughter (and took her back to Vienna with him)? 

[RobbK1]

Jul 7, 2018 1:58:56 GMT Baar Baar Jinx said:

Jul 7, 2018 1:35:18 GMT Matilda said:

The only question is, how did Elvira's aunt meet an Austrian? Who took her to live with him in Austria (hence Ludwig's Viennese origin)? *That* doesn't seem very likely, given the nature of Elvira's family background, pioneer stock, farmers, not likely college-educated....and given the difficulty of trans-oceanic travel back in those days.

Well, we know about Elvira's paternal side (the Coots), to whom the pioneer-stock/frontiersmen/farmer labels apply, but what do we really know about the Gadwalls? I admit that meeting someone from another continent would have been far less likely then, but perhaps Elvira's Grandpa Gadwall was in business (like Scrooge was) and traveled to Europe with his daughter (the "maternal aunt" in question) and she met Von Drake Sr. there, or perhaps Von Drake Sr., on a trip to North America, stayed at the Gadwall Family Inn (or some such) and fell in love with the innkeeper's daughter (and took her back to Vienna with him)? 

This scenario is certainly possible.  I know plenty of Danes, Dutch, Germans, British, and, yes, even Austrians, who had male family members (ancestors) travel to USA or Canada, trying to make their fortunes in The New World during the late 1800s, or early 1900s, who returned to their native land in Europe, and remained there the rest of their lives.  Some of those brought an American wife back with them. 

[Matilda]

Jul 7, 2018 6:58:22 GMT RobbK1 said:

Jul 7, 2018 1:58:56 GMT Baar Baar Jinx said:

Well, we know about Elvira's paternal side (the Coots), to whom the pioneer-stock/frontiersmen/farmer labels apply, but what do we really know about the Gadwalls? I admit that meeting someone from another continent would have been far less likely then, but perhaps Elvira's Grandpa Gadwall was in business (like Scrooge was) and traveled to Europe with his daughter (the "maternal aunt" in question) and she met Von Drake Sr. there, or perhaps Von Drake Sr., on a trip to North America, stayed at the Gadwall Family Inn (or some such) and fell in love with the innkeeper's daughter (and took her back to Vienna with him)? 

This scenario is certainly possible.  I know plenty of Danes, Dutch, Germans, British, and, yes, even Austrians, who had male family members (ancestors) travel to USA or Canada, trying to make their fortunes in The New World during the late 1800s, or early 1900s, who returned to their native land in Europe, and remained there the rest of their lives.  Some of those brought an American wife back with them. 

Ah, thanks for the report, Rob! So we can propose this as a possible family tree: Gertrude Gadwall's considerably younger sister meets an Austrian Von Drake who marries her and brings her back with him to Vienna. Ludwig gets out of Vienna before unspeakable events occur and comes to Duckburg, where he has maternal relatives and where he is eventually hired as a professor at Coot University.

[Baar Baar Jinx]

Jul 7, 2018 12:04:16 GMT Matilda said:

Ah, thanks for the report, Rob! So we can propose this as a possible family tree: Gertrude Gadwall's considerably younger sister meets an Austrian Von Drake who marries her and brings her back with him to Vienna. Ludwig gets out of Vienna before unspeakable events occur and comes to Duckburg, where he has maternal relatives and where he is eventually hired as a professor at Coot University.

I like this version. If one is truly wedded to the narrative of a Ludwig-Matilda pairing, either out of respect for Rosa or because of a personal affinity for the idea, it could also be proposed that the two were subsequently introduced to each other either by Donald (if it happened before the events of "Letter From Home") or Scrooge (if it happened after those events). This would allow Ludwig to already have been Donald's "uncle" and a bachelor at the same time (as shown in the Disney animated specials and in the comic strips where he was dating Alice) when he first moved to Duckburg, and later acquire another relationship with Donald when Ludwig married Donald's aunt. But that part you can take or leave depending on whether you see Ludwig and Matilda married or not. This scenario respects "Barn Dance Doctor" and the German translation of "Duckburg USA" (which I see no reason to discount out of hand) as well as Barks' desire to have Ludwig be Donald's uncle through a non-Matilda route, but also Rosa's view, which a lot of the fandom has already accepted into personal headcanon. The only odd thing out is the original proposal that Ludwig is Donald's father's brother, but that was untenable from the start.  

[Scrooge MacDuck]

Jul 7, 2018 12:24:34 GMT Baar Baar Jinx said:

Jul 7, 2018 12:04:16 GMT Matilda said:

Ah, thanks for the report, Rob! So we can propose this as a possible family tree: Gertrude Gadwall's considerably younger sister meets an Austrian Von Drake who marries her and brings her back with him to Vienna. Ludwig gets out of Vienna before unspeakable events occur and comes to Duckburg, where he has maternal relatives and where he is eventually hired as a professor at Coot University.

I like this version. If one is truly wedded to the narrative of a Ludwig-Matilda pairing, either out of respect for Rosa or because of a personal affinity for the idea, it could also be proposed that the two were subsequently introduced to each other either by Donald (if it happened before the events of "Letter From Home"), or Scrooge (if it happened after those events). This would allow Ludwig to already have been Donald's uncle and a bachelor at the same time (as shown in the Disney animated specials and in the comic strips where he was dating Alice) when he first moved to Duckburg, and later acquire another relationship with Donald when Ludwig married Donald's aunt. But that part you can take or leave depending on whether you see Ludwig and Matilda married or not. This scenario respects "Barn Dance Doctor" and the German translation of "Duckburg USA" (which I see no reason to discount out of hand) as well as Barks' desire to have Ludwig be Donald's "uncle" through a non-Matilda route, but also Rosa's view, which a lot of the fandom has already accepted into personal headcanon. The only odd thing out is the original proposal that Ludwig is Donald's father's brother, but that was untenable from the start.  

That seems very reasonable. I'll miss my Otto Duck theory, but facts are facts. 

One thing, though: it seems clear from Duckburg U.S.A. that Ludwig is just arriving in Duckburg then. He didn't leave Vienna before the War. (Or, well, he did, considering Symposium of Popular Song, but then had gone back by the 1930's.)

Also, what to make of his grandmother Mother Goose?