Plus, it's canonically the case that different versions of mythological figures exist in different universes - for example, Triton in The Little Mermaid is not the same character as Triton as he appears in Hercules. Making specific assumptions based on other universes would complicate things, I think.
glares at usage of the “C” word
More seriously, it seems to be the basis of this tree to overlook perceived differences between universes, e.g. DT17 — and the Hercules/Little Mermaid one is certainly not clear-cut — yes, the Hercules TV series' Triton does not look much like his Little Mermaid self, but then again, if we're willing to accept radically different portrayals of Santa Claus or indeed King Neptune from one story to another… Certainly I recall hearing that at one stage the Disney Parks meet'n'greet version of Hercules acknowledged technically being Ariel's cousin, though higher-ups later told the performers to cut it out.
I do think that Mim's inclusion warrants some questioning on sources moving forward; there are some issues that arise with the current system, I think.
I think it's fine up until Spooks and Magic - there are some issues that crop up here, and some that I was wondering regarding Cleopatra as well. At what point do we allow for inferences based on the real world? Like, say, Cleopatra VII is on the tree because of the fact that she's related in-universe. Do we take the information in a vacuum and only accept what's seen in comics canon? Would we have to look at actual history? I'd imagine that it's just what's available in the comics that we look at, as that would make the most sense.
But Phyllis Diller is a real person from recent memory - there's actual documentation of her family. To me, it feels kind of squicky to include that - or do we go with the idea that this is a fictional version who just shares her name? So, none of her actual family go on the tree because they're not referred to in Spooks and Magic? That feels more palatable to me, at least. This is mainly just something I'd like to understand for clarification - but I'd much prefer if this was the way it was handled. As long as it's exclusively the fictional version, and we don't draw any info from her real life or anything like that.
Finally, there's the question of sources. There hasn't been much of a limit thus far, but it seems that the general ground rule is that it has to be based in 'Mickey & Friends' media - the only exception has been the characters from The Aristocats, but the link is explicitly made in House of Mouse. Mim complicates things a bit, but many of the sources are fairly self-contained - though I don't know enough about Descendants to say that with absolute certainty. However, I'd question the inclusion of the likes of Hercules or American Dragon: Jake Long. The problem, as I see it, is that mythological figures are a little too broad to include, unless it's limited to a specific universe/version of the character - otherwise, you'll get a stream of random inclusions that don't really fit properly. So, for example, Medusa is included because she's a relative of Phyllis Diller, through Madam Mim [...very strange sentence ] As such, we should probably only use that version of Medusa or, being generous, Medusa as she exists in the Duck/Mouse universe comics. If we include every version of Medusa, it goes far beyond the original scope and kind of distracts from the main point, I think
Plus, it's canonically the case that different versions of mythological figures exist in different universes - for example, Triton in The Little Mermaid is not the same character as Triton as he appears in Hercules. Making specific assumptions based on other universes would complicate things, I think.
Apologies for the longpost, but I felt this was an important point to make
These are all very relevant questions and remarks indeed. And also not something of which I can now say what is the best approach. It requires some more thoughts and opinions of everyone here. But just my initial comments based on some of your remarks:
Pyllis Diller is indeed a real person. But in the live-action film she plays a character called "Phyllis Diller". She plays a witch and she does not play a copy of herself. So, it seems to me that if this character is said to be related to Madam Mim then that is something that we would need to consider. Also, the father and mother are not her real father and mother (at least I hope for her, her real mother was not an undead mummy), but the father and mother of the character Phyllis Diller. So if Phyllis Diller is included then these parents, according to that same live-action movie, should I think also be included. Though any real relatives of the real Phyllis Diller of course not. Similar as that any real realtives of Cleopatra VII should not be included unless they also appear in a Disney comic or so.
That still leaves the discussion if that live-action film is a valid source. That all depends on what we consider valid sources. If any official Disney publication (cartoon, comic, live action, tv series, video game, book, etc.) is a valid source, then this film is a valid source, just as that Descendants, Hercules, American Dragon, and so on would be valid sources. If we want to limit it in one way or another that is of course possible. But note that we currently already have various things that are not comics as sources, like a video game (for Uncle Fergus), books (such as for some relatives from Small World Library Book Series, or the book about Nonna Jenny) and various animated TV series (DuckTales, it's reboot, Quackpack, House of Mouse, etc.). So the question is, which official Disney publications, if any, should then be excluded?
Then about your point "Do we take the information in a vacuum and only accept what's seen in comics canon? Would we have to look at actual history?". This is a good question. It basically already determines if we consider the Cleopatra from S 67037 the same one as the Cleopatra from I TL 750-A. Since we need some real world facts about Cleopatra to merge the two characters from these two stories. The connection made between the Medusa in Hercules and the Medusa from Spooks and Magic, basically does something similar. Maybe we need to be more strict here, but the question remains how strict.
I agree that it would be good to get some more thoughts and weighing in before moving forward
That take on Phyllis Diller and Cleopatra is good by me - as long as we only include fictional interpretations, and only present characters in their fictional incarnations, I'm content
For the record, my argument wasn't that Hercules or American Dragon: Jake Long are not valid sources - it's mainly about using the interpretation of Medusa from those canons that I take issue with I think that the main rule should be that there should be some foundation in the 'Mickey & Friends' universe for characters to be included; Madam Mim is a valid inclusion because she has a solid basis in Donald's universe, in which she is an established character. The Phyllis Diller connection is valid because The Mouse Factory ties in heavily to that same universe, even if it's not necessarily a 'part' of it. Plus, the connection is to Mim, an established character in the Duck universe (even if she's not from that universe). I'm not inherently against any sources, but I do think they should have a clear tie, or at the very least, a reasonable series of connections, if they're to be considered
I think that the connection with Cleopatra is different to the one with Medusa: Cleopatra is a specific, real figure who lived in a specific period - and the fact that it's a real person can be directly inferred in I TL 750-A, at least. This can also be inferred in the Mim story (though with less clarity). Even if you ignore this, though, and assume that it's a fake character, the connection can still be made, as it's a famous Cleopatra who was a pharaoh in Egypt, and both stories are set in the same overall universe. Medusa, on the other hand, is a mythological figure. When someone mentions Cleopatra, it's specifically referring to Cleopatra the real person - when someone says Medusa, it's not necessarily tying into the original Greek myth; it's often just a character archetype of a gorgon, and rarely tells the full story. Even if you ignore that, though, there's not a specific character being understood here. When you look at Cleopatra, you look at her as she exists in the Duck universe; she is a relative of Cleopat-Perina, and in the same universe, she's a cousin of Madam Mim. We accept these liberties because the stories are in the same universe, and the inference that they're the same Cleopatra makes perfect sense. Regarding Medusa, we're not initially pulling from the Duckverse and extrapolating - the connection itself is made in The Mouse Factory. I think the best options would either to base it solely on what we know of The Mouse Factory, the Duck universe interpretation of Medusa or even if we just said that it had to be stories containing Mim herself. I don't remember Medusa in Hercules and the Gorgon and I haven't seen the episode of Jake Long, but I'd feel safe in assuming they're not the same character. They borrow from the same source material, but they're distinct from one another - like with the example provided, where Triton in The Little Mermaid is a merman, whereas in Hercules he's a fish-like humanoid. I don't think that using other sources is invalid, but regarding mythological figures, I think that it should be accepted that each universe has specific incarnations of them, and only the relevant ones should be included - or, failing that, it should default to the Duck/Mouse versions should be the priorities.
This is just my take, and I'm open to hearing others', of course, but I wanted to put my thoughts out there
Resident autistic, diabetic duck fan.
I love hearing about bizarre/obscure Disney works - recommendations welcome!
I think it's fine up until Spooks and Magic - there are some issues that crop up here, and some that I was wondering regarding Cleopatra as well. At what point do we allow for inferences based on the real world?
I'm watching "Spooks and Magic" now, and it's just... too ridiculous for me to imagine as canon?
Diller's witch character calls herself a "ghost host" and introduces "Diller's Midnight Manor," the retirement home she runs for "worn-out" witches, ghosts, and goblins. Through use of footage from other Disney films, we see that she has hired the (live action) ghost army from BEDKNOBS AND BROOMSTICKS as her security force, the vultures from SNOW WHITE as watchbirds, and the Manor itself is (at various times) either the Haunted Mansion from Disneyland, or the McShiver Mansion from LONESOME GHOSTS, due to recycled footage.
It's just such an obvious parody that I feel like it dilutes the "strength" of the Tree to include it... even if we somehow make Mim a relative, Diller just feels ridiculous... isn't the idea to have a document that even writers could use to explore future story possibilities?
("Spooks and Magic" is enjoyable on its own terms, though. It includes a Disneyland Witch Hazel costume character, something I'd never seen before.)
Plus, it's canonically the case that different versions of mythological figures exist in different universes - for example, Triton in The Little Mermaid is not the same character as Triton as he appears in Hercules. Making specific assumptions based on other universes would complicate things, I think.
glares at usage of the “C” word
More seriously, it seems to be the basis of this tree to overlook perceived differences between universes, e.g. DT17 — and the Hercules/Little Mermaid one is certainly not clear-cut — yes, the Hercules TV series' Triton does not look much like his Little Mermaid self, but then again, if we're willing to accept radically different portrayals of Santa Claus or indeed King Neptune from one story to another… Certainly I recall hearing that at one stage the Disney Parks meet'n'greet version of Hercules acknowledged technically being Ariel's cousin, though higher-ups later told the performers to cut it out.
(Apologies in advance for double-post, only saw the edit after posting and I don't know how to edit quotes into an existing comment)
I think my main sticking point with this is regarding mythology. With the Duck universe, you can tie all the works together because it's specifically the Duck universe - they may be different from one another, but the core of the universe is the same.
Mythology is much different. If Donald appears in a work, you know that, to an extent, it's Donald Duck - he might be written or designed differently, but you can make assumptions about him because you know who Donald Duck is. You can't make the same assumptions for mythological characters. If Zeus appears in a Duck story, we make some assumptions, but we don't assume that Fantasia or Hercules are canon to it even though they're Disney works. Everyone has their own interpretations of mythology, and even without looking at different universes, a lot of the stories just aren't compatible. I know that there has been liberty-taking and the like to make incompatible stories work previously, but I think working in interpretations from entirely separate universes to fit mythological characters in is too distant from the main purpose of the tree and causes too many problems
Resident autistic, diabetic duck fan.
I love hearing about bizarre/obscure Disney works - recommendations welcome!
I think it's fine up until Spooks and Magic - there are some issues that crop up here, and some that I was wondering regarding Cleopatra as well. At what point do we allow for inferences based on the real world?
I'm watching "Spooks and Magic" now, and it's just... too ridiculous for me to imagine as canon?
Diller's witch character calls herself a "ghost host" and introduces "Diller's Midnight Manor," the retirement home she runs for "worn-out" witches, ghosts, and goblins. Through use of footage from other Disney films, we see that she has hired the (live action) ghost army from BEDKNOBS AND BROOMSTICKS as her security force, the vultures from SNOW WHITE as watchbirds, and the Manor itself is (at various times) either the Haunted Mansion from Disneyland, or the McShiver Mansion from LONESOME GHOSTS, due to recycled footage.
It's just such an obvious parody that I feel like it dilutes the "strength" of the Tree to include it... even if we somehow make Mim a relative, Diller just feels ridiculous... isn't the idea to have a document that even writers could use to explore future story possibilities?
("Spooks and Magic" is enjoyable on its own terms, though. It includes a Disneyland Witch Hazel costume character, something I'd never seen before.)
(The last one ended up not being a double-post, but apologies if this one is)
This is a fair take on things; it is over the top, and it could definitely be inferred that some of the connections are jokes. I think that the main question is regarding how you approach sources; while it does come through as a parody, it does still directly state that Mim is an aunt of Diller's. I'm personally fine to ignore/discount it, but I do think it's open to discussion - it does raise the question of what we allow on the tree. I'm fairly ambivalent, as I think both sides are valid - basically, however the chips fall, I'll understand why it happened
Resident autistic, diabetic duck fan.
I love hearing about bizarre/obscure Disney works - recommendations welcome!
I'm watching "Spooks and Magic" now, and it's just... too ridiculous for me to imagine as canon?
Diller's witch character calls herself a "ghost host" and introduces "Diller's Midnight Manor," the retirement home she runs for "worn-out" witches, ghosts, and goblins. Through use of footage from other Disney films, we see that she has hired the (live action) ghost army from BEDKNOBS AND BROOMSTICKS as her security force, the vultures from SNOW WHITE as watchbirds, and the Manor itself is (at various times) either the Haunted Mansion from Disneyland, or the McShiver Mansion from LONESOME GHOSTS, due to recycled footage.
It's just such an obvious parody that I feel like it dilutes the "strength" of the Tree to include it... even if we somehow make Mim a relative, Diller just feels ridiculous... isn't the idea to have a document that even writers could use to explore future story possibilities?
I agree that "Spooks and Magic" is very ridiculous. And it wouldn't be part of my own head canon of the Duck universe. But if I would follow my own head canon, I could probably easily scrap over half of the characters that are currently on the tree. But that's not the goal of this tree. If I am not mistaken it was also the original intention of LP to include every relative of every (Disney) continuity, independent of the source ( LP , please correct me if something like "Spooks and Magic" is not something that you would have considered to be used for this tree).
And maybe it can give a writer still a nice idea to let Madam Mim, Medusa and Diller team up in a comic. With just "The Sword in the Stone" as reference, it would also be absurd to let Madam Mim team up with the Beagle Boys, but there are enough comics in which that is the case
I think that the connection with Cleopatra is different to the one with Medusa: Cleopatra is a specific, real figure who lived in a specific period - and the fact that it's a real person can be directly inferred in I TL 750-A, at least. This can also be inferred in the Mim story (though with less clarity). Even if you ignore this, though, and assume that it's a fake character, the connection can still be made, as it's a famous Cleopatra who was a pharaoh in Egypt, and both stories are set in the same overall universe. Medusa, on the other hand, is a mythological figure. When someone mentions Cleopatra, it's specifically referring to Cleopatra the real person - when someone says Medusa, it's not necessarily tying into the original Greek myth; it's often just a character archetype of a gorgon, and rarely tells the full story. Even if you ignore that, though, there's not a specific character being understood here. When you look at Cleopatra, you look at her as she exists in the Duck universe; she is a relative of Cleopat-Perina, and in the same universe, she's a cousin of Madam Mim. We accept these liberties because the stories are in the same universe, and the inference that they're the same Cleopatra makes perfect sense. Regarding Medusa, we're not initially pulling from the Duckverse and extrapolating - the connection itself is made in The Mouse Factory. I think the best options would either to base it solely on what we know of The Mouse Factory, the Duck universe interpretation of Medusa or even if we just said that it had to be stories containing Mim herself. I don't remember Medusa in Hercules and the Gorgon and I haven't seen the episode of Jake Long, but I'd feel safe in assuming they're not the same character. They borrow from the same source material, but they're distinct from one another - like with the example provided, where Triton in The Little Mermaid is a merman, whereas in Hercules he's a fish-like humanoid. I don't think that using other sources is invalid, but regarding mythological figures, I think that it should be accepted that each universe has specific incarnations of them, and only the relevant ones should be included - or, failing that, it should default to the Duck/Mouse versions should be the priorities.
I see where you are coming from regarding Medusa, and I would fully understand if one did not want to consider the Medusa from "Hercules and the Gorgon" as the same one as the Medusa from "Spooks and Magic" (Haunted Mansion). Though I definitely see the similarities in the design and I wouldn't be surprised if the design of Medusa for "Hercules and the Gorgon" was made with the design of Medusa from "Haunted Mansion" in mind. For me personally they can easily be the same character, as there is nothing that really contradicts it. But as said, I can fully understand that you are hesitant to something like that, as one does not want to merge too much without some solid foundation. In that sense, the Medusa in "Jake Long" has a very different design, so merging also her takes it even a step further.
I think that the connection with Cleopatra is different to the one with Medusa: Cleopatra is a specific, real figure who lived in a specific period - and the fact that it's a real person can be directly inferred in I TL 750-A, at least. This can also be inferred in the Mim story (though with less clarity). Even if you ignore this, though, and assume that it's a fake character, the connection can still be made, as it's a famous Cleopatra who was a pharaoh in Egypt, and both stories are set in the same overall universe. Medusa, on the other hand, is a mythological figure. When someone mentions Cleopatra, it's specifically referring to Cleopatra the real person - when someone says Medusa, it's not necessarily tying into the original Greek myth; it's often just a character archetype of a gorgon, and rarely tells the full story. Even if you ignore that, though, there's not a specific character being understood here. When you look at Cleopatra, you look at her as she exists in the Duck universe; she is a relative of Cleopat-Perina, and in the same universe, she's a cousin of Madam Mim. We accept these liberties because the stories are in the same universe, and the inference that they're the same Cleopatra makes perfect sense. Regarding Medusa, we're not initially pulling from the Duckverse and extrapolating - the connection itself is made in The Mouse Factory. I think the best options would either to base it solely on what we know of The Mouse Factory, the Duck universe interpretation of Medusa or even if we just said that it had to be stories containing Mim herself. I don't remember Medusa in Hercules and the Gorgon and I haven't seen the episode of Jake Long, but I'd feel safe in assuming they're not the same character. They borrow from the same source material, but they're distinct from one another - like with the example provided, where Triton in The Little Mermaid is a merman, whereas in Hercules he's a fish-like humanoid. I don't think that using other sources is invalid, but regarding mythological figures, I think that it should be accepted that each universe has specific incarnations of them, and only the relevant ones should be included - or, failing that, it should default to the Duck/Mouse versions should be the priorities.
I see where you are coming from regarding Medusa, and I would fully understand if one did not want to consider the Medusa from "Hercules and the Gorgon" as the same one as the Medusa from "Spooks and Magic" (Haunted Mansion). Though I definitely see the similarities in the design and I wouldn't be surprised if the design of Medusa for "Hercules and the Gorgon" was made with the design of Medusa from "Haunted Mansion" in mind. For me personally they can easily be the same character, as there is nothing that really contradicts it. But as said, I can fully understand that you are hesitant to something like that, as one does not want to merge too much without some solid foundation. In that sense, the Medusa in "Jake Long" has a very different design, so merging also her takes it even a step further.
It's not so much that I have an issue with any specific incarnation of Medusa being included - my main problem is that mythological characters, as a whole, would benefit from having concrete ties to the universe beyond "it's Medusa and it's Disney". This opens a floodgate and, if there's too much leeway given, it can cause problems. Think of it like this - say, just for the sake of argument, that we find a link that ties Hercules to the Duck family, and we follow this same system. That would mean we'd have to have Hercules and any Olympian Gods related to him. Then, based on the fact that Triton is his cousin, we'd also have to tie in Ariel and any relatives from The Little Mermaid. Some sources tie Ursula in as Triton's sister, others don't - but then, do we tie her and Morgana in? How liberal do we get if we allow these interpretations? Do we allow for the versions of the characters from Once Upon a Time? If we do get to that stage, do we allow for the Marvel version of Hercules?
I know that that link hasn't actually made yet, but it's about the broader implications - at what point do we say "this isn't the same character despite sharing the same source material"?
Resident autistic, diabetic duck fan.
I love hearing about bizarre/obscure Disney works - recommendations welcome!
How liberal do we get if we allow these interpretations? Do we allow for the versions of the characters from Once Upon a Time? If we do get to that stage, do we allow for the Marvel version of Hercules?
Well, my view is that Little Mermaid and Hercules have some standing for the exact same reason Mim does: their characters having appeared in stories that directly have Ducks (and Mice) in them. House of Mouse, y'know! Donald Duck has interacted with the Hercules version of Hades, and so by HoM's indirect account, the whole Hercules franchise is bolted on as one possible account of what the Greek Gods are like in the Duckverse. Of course, I fully expect Ramapith to dismiss this in the same way as Spooks and Magic and for much the same reason, but from where I'm standing, if one accepts the crossovers of yore, when Witch Grimhilde could casually antagonise Scrooge McDuck, Yellow Beak could duel Captain Hook, and good old Madam Mim was teaming up with just about everybody, then it's only fair to extend the same courtesy to later media which went on having the Ducks & Mice interacting with a wider gallery of Disney characters like it weren't no thing. Or to pull from the TV end of things, Spooks and Magic feels like the natural descendant of all those lovely Wonderful World of Disney specials; Diller is essentially filling in for Hans Conried's live-action Magic Mirror here — or Jiminy Cricket — or, and thereon hangs the tale, original-flavour Ludwig Von Drake!
For what it's worth, House of Mouse with all it implies, and Spooks and Magic, are both very much “real” in my view of the wider Disney Comics Universe’, in a way which could never be true of Once Upon a Time (which is firmly a "parallel universe" relative to any classic Disney universe(s), much like Descendants; or indeed like DuckTales 2017 is relative to any portrayals of the classic characters).
(I admit that this argument would be stronger, as regards inclusion of Medusa, if the Hercules Medusa had appeared in House of Mouse directly, but it still feels direct enough for me.)
…All this being said, it strikes me that we may not have any Disney-comics-verse source for the idea that Medusa is a blood relation of the Greek Gods, which would simplify matters considerably. I don't think the Hercules episode says as much; the Haunted Mansion franchise never has to my knowledge. So maybe all of this is moot.
How liberal do we get if we allow these interpretations? Do we allow for the versions of the characters from Once Upon a Time? If we do get to that stage, do we allow for the Marvel version of Hercules?
Well, my view is that Little Mermaid and Hercules have some standing for the exact same reason Mim does: their characters having appeared in stories that directly have Ducks (and Mice) in them. House of Mouse, y'know! Donald Duck has interacted with the Hercules version of Hades, and so by HoM's indirect account, the whole Hercules franchise is bolted on as one possible account of what the Greek Gods are like in the Duckverse. Of course, I fully expect Ramapith to dismiss this in the same way as Spooks and Magic and for much the same reason, but from where I'm standing, if one accepts the crossovers of yore, when Witch Grimhilde could casually antagonise Scrooge McDuck, Yellow Beak could duel Captain Hook, and good old Madam Mim was teaming up with just about everybody, then it's only fair to extend the same courtesy to later media which went on having the Ducks & Mice interacting with a wider gallery of Disney characters like it weren't no thing. Or to pull from the TV end of things, Spooks and Magic feels like the natural descendant of all those lovely Wonderful World of Disney specials; Diller is essentially filling in for Hans Conried's live-action Magic Mirror here — or Jiminy Cricket — or, and thereon hangs the tale, original-flavour Ludwig Von Drake!
For what it's worth, House of Mouse with all it implies, and Spooks and Magic, are both very much “real” in my view of the wider Disney Comics Universe’, in a way which could never be true of Once Upon a Time (which is firmly a "parallel universe" relative to any classic Disney universe(s), much like Descendants; or indeed like DuckTales 2017 is relative to any portrayals of the classic characters).
(I admit that this argument would be stronger, as regards inclusion of Medusa, if the Hercules Medusa had appeared in House of Mouse directly, but it still feels direct enough for me.)
…All this being said, it strikes me that we may not have any Disney-comics-verse source for the idea that Medusa is a blood relation of the Greek Gods, which would simplify matters considerably. I don't think the Hercules episode says as much; the Haunted Mansion franchise never has to my knowledge. So maybe all of this is moot.
I don't know if I'm explaining myself properly; I don't inherently object to characters from any of these universes specifically. My main point is that, in my own opinion, I don't think that any one version of a mythological character should be assumed to be the same as any other.
I think House of Mouse is actually a great example to illustrate this point: When you see Donald Duck in House of Mouse, you know that it's Donald Duck. Obviously, there will be differences to accommodate for the different setting, but you know, intrinsically that it's supposed to be the same Duck from Lost in the Andes or Mr. Duck Steps Out - it's not an approximation, it's meant to be the same duck. Maybe he doesn't have the exact history from, say, Quack Pack - maybe the likes of Maui Mallard in Cold Shadow doesn't factor into this version. Yet, at the same time, they're all meant to be the same duck.
When you see Zeus in House of Mouse, who is he? Is he the one in Hercules? Do we assume that that's the same Zeus from Fantasia? How about the many interpretations of Zeus from the comics? Didn't apply at the time, but how about Russell Crowe Zeus from the MCU? Zeus from Ducktales '17? 'Zeus' isn't treated the same as Donald Duck - as a mythological figure, these works all take different perspectives on him. Whereas we know that all of the different takes on Donald Duck are supposed to be our Donald Duck, but with a figure like Zeus - or, in the main discussion, Medusa - the same assumption can't be made. Let's say that Donald Duck appears as a cameo in Wish; we'll take that as Donald Duck. Not as their take on him, we actually see him as Donald Duck. Whereas if Zeus appears, we treat him as that universe's take on Zeus - we don't make the same assumption that he carries the history etc of the Zeus from Hercules, Fantasia, Ducktales '17...
So, to the relevant discussion, Medusa: Assuming we accept the Phyllis Diller connection, what universes are relevant? The Haunted Mansion, The Mouse Factory, the universe in the Duck and Mouse comics and, by extension, The Sword in The Stone. They're all connected in this concept. However, there's nothing that gives us reason to believe that it's the same Medusa in Hercules: The Animated Series or American Dragon: Jake Long. It's 'Medusa', but they're clearly meant to be different interpretations of the myth - the same as with Zeus, Triton or any other such characters. That's not to say they can't be the same, but I feel like chasing down leads like that will ultimately distract from the actual purpose of the tree, and lead us down several tangential goose chases - I know that Mim is a bit of a stretch, but she's still a prominent character in the Duck comic universe and, as such, isn't too out of place. Chasing down basically anything with a Disney label that ties in to mythological characters feels like a bit too much, imo
Resident autistic, diabetic duck fan.
I love hearing about bizarre/obscure Disney works - recommendations welcome!
Let's say that Donald Duck appears as a cameo in Wish; we'll take that as Donald Duck. Not as their take on him, we actually see him as Donald Duck. Whereas if Zeus appears, we treat him as that universe's take on Zeus - we don't make the same assumption that he carries the history etc of the Zeus from Hercules, Fantasia, Ducktales '17...
So, to the relevant discussion, Medusa: Assuming we accept the Phyllis Diller connection, what universes are relevant? The Haunted Mansion, The Mouse Factory, the universe in the Duck and Mouse comics and, by extension, The Sword in The Stone. They're all connected in this concept. However, there's nothing that gives us reason to believe that it's the same Medusa in Hercules: The Animated Series or American Dragon: Jake Long. It's 'Medusa', but they're clearly meant to be different interpretations of the myth - the same as with Zeus, Triton or any other such characters. (…) Chasing down basically anything with a Disney label that ties in to mythological characters feels like a bit too much, imo
I agree with that last sentence wholeheartedly — and I will also say again that I think it's entirely fair enough if the tree doesn't want to go as far as what I'm about to propose, either.
But my point, which I suppose I mustn't have made clear enough either, is that insofar as the Donald and Mickey in House of Mouse are substantially The Donald and Mickey, then a depiction of Zeus or Herculesin House of Mouseis a depiction of the Duckverse's Zeus, even if it happens to be recycled from a movie which had not originally been made with the Duckverse in mind. If Hercules's Zeus appeared on House of Mouse, then he is a depiction of the Zeus of the Duckverse, as much as the one in Trombone Troubles and any of the smattering of comics in which Greco-Roman deities have shown up in person.
And my controversial take, starting from that premise, is that in the fullest view of the No-Holds-Barred Disney Comics Universe, this is transitive to any other media set in "the universe of Hercules": House of Mouseasserts that "the Hercules universe" is synonymous with Donald Duck's universe, therefore a depiction of Medusa in a Hercules: The Animated Series episode is in a very indirect sense a depiction of "the Medusa of the Duckverse", and should be considered in the same way as a depiction of the mythological Medusa in a random Disney comic (in much the same way that we are connecting unrelated Disney-comics uses of Cleopatra).
I again, fully accept that this sort of reasoning is maybe too tenuous to be used on the Tree. (Heaven knows it proved just too damn much for a three-person team to use on the Wiki, which is one of the reasons I ran away from the poor thing like a dirty coward a few years back… One day, I'll come back and rebuild it from its ashes. Yes, one day…) I just want it on record that it is not at all the same thing as taking into consideration "anything with a Disney label". Case in point, I don't believe any Jake Long characters have ever shared the screen with a Duck or Mouse, therefore that show is null and void regardless of what production company made it!
(And contrariwise, I would argue in the same way for any non-Disney-owned franchise with a Duckverse crossover. For example, as per that delightful Vicar time-travel story, I do think the Asterix comics are valid history for the Ancient Gaul of Donald's universe; so the depiction of Cleopatra from Asterix and Cleopatra would be "valid" in my view.)
One thing baffles me, though, so maybe someone who speaks Portuguese could help me to understand this one:
Madam Mim stops the story to say this to Grandma Duck: "Vocês sabiam que foi essa nossa ancestral que descobriu a escrita?" As far as I understand, that means our ancestor... is she implying that she and Grandma are related? Or is there some kind of turn of phrase I'm missing here?
Only by that image, it seems really the case (but I did not read the whole story)
One thing baffles me, though, so maybe someone who speaks Portuguese could help me to understand this one:
Madam Mim stops the story to say this to Grandma Duck: "Vocês sabiam que foi essa nossa ancestral que descobriu a escrita?" As far as I understand, that means our ancestor... is she implying that she and Grandma are related? Or is there some kind of turn of phrase I'm missing here?
Only by that image, it seems really the case (but I did not read the whole story)
Let's say that Donald Duck appears as a cameo in Wish; we'll take that as Donald Duck. Not as their take on him, we actually see him as Donald Duck. Whereas if Zeus appears, we treat him as that universe's take on Zeus - we don't make the same assumption that he carries the history etc of the Zeus from Hercules, Fantasia, Ducktales '17...
So, to the relevant discussion, Medusa: Assuming we accept the Phyllis Diller connection, what universes are relevant? The Haunted Mansion, The Mouse Factory, the universe in the Duck and Mouse comics and, by extension, The Sword in The Stone. They're all connected in this concept. However, there's nothing that gives us reason to believe that it's the same Medusa in Hercules: The Animated Series or American Dragon: Jake Long. It's 'Medusa', but they're clearly meant to be different interpretations of the myth - the same as with Zeus, Triton or any other such characters. (…) Chasing down basically anything with a Disney label that ties in to mythological characters feels like a bit too much, imo
I agree with that last sentence wholeheartedly — and I will also say again that I think it's entirely fair enough if the tree doesn't want to go as far as what I'm about to propose, either.
But my point, which I suppose I mustn't have made clear enough either, is that insofar as the Donald and Mickey in House of Mouse are substantially The Donald and Mickey, then a depiction of Zeus or Herculesin House of Mouseis a depiction of the Duckverse's Zeus, even if it happens to be recycled from a movie which had not originally been made with the Duckverse in mind. If Hercules's Zeus appeared on House of Mouse, then he is a depiction of the Zeus of the Duckverse, as much as the one in Trombone Troubles and any of the smattering of comics in which Greco-Roman deities have shown up in person.
And my controversial take, starting from that premise, is that in the fullest view of the No-Holds-Barred Disney Comics Universe, this is transitive to any other media set in "the universe of Hercules": House of Mouseasserts that "the Hercules universe" is synonymous with Donald Duck's universe, therefore a depiction of Medusa in a Hercules: The Animated Series episode is in a very indirect sense a depiction of "the Medusa of the Duckverse", and should be considered in the same way as a depiction of the mythological Medusa in a random Disney comic (in much the same way that we are connecting unrelated Disney-comics uses of Cleopatra).
I again, fully accept that this sort of reasoning is maybe too tenuous to be used on the Tree. (Heaven knows it proved just too damn much for a three-person team to use on the Wiki, which is one of the reasons I ran away from the poor thing like a dirty coward a few years back… One day, I'll come back and rebuild it from its ashes. Yes, one day…) I just want it on record that it is not at all the same thing as taking into consideration "anything with a Disney label". Case in point, I don't believe any Jake Long characters have ever shared the screen with a Duck or Mouse, therefore that show is null and void regardless of what production company made it!
(And contrariwise, I would argue in the same way for any non-Disney-owned franchise with a Duckverse crossover. For example, as per that delightful Vicar time-travel story, I do think the Asterix comics are valid history for the Ancient Gaul of Donald's universe; so the depiction of Cleopatra from Asterix and Cleopatra would be "valid" in my view.)
At the end of the day, I'm mainly an indexer and occasional contributor for the project - so while I do have my own opinions on what is or isn't appropriate, I don't personally see myself as an authority on it.
I do understand now, though I can't personally agree with the idea. House of Mouse is strange in that it contradicts the 'lore' of many of the universes within - yet it's not like Who Framed Roger Rabbit? wherein the universes are understood to be fictional. It's just kind of accepted that all of these characters can come together and have fun at the club, despite the fact that it contradicts many of the rules of many of the established universes. It's also not entirely an alternate universe, either; unlike, say, Wizards of Mickey, these characters are established as having at least somewhat similar backstories. They're rooted in the same ground as the core characters, and aren't treated as an alternate take on them or anything like that. It's not even like Kingdom Hearts, which at least firmly establishes that these characters all come from different worlds and how that works. With House of Mouse, it's just kind of accepted that you'll roll with it - they're just there, and that's accepted without question. As such, answering how the universes are supposed to relate to one another isn't cut-and-dry; it could be like some of the older comics, where the likes of Captain Hook or Dumbo can just show up in the Ducks' world and that's just that. Or it could be the case that there's some magical explanation that just isn't provided. Or they could, indeed, somehow inhabit the same universe, despite the implausibility of that in the context of any one specific universe.
That being said, I couldn't personally apply that to anyone's main universes. My own interpretations is that such connections can't properly be made unless it's shown or heavily implied within the show itself. As an example, the connection between Waldo and Donald; they're actively shown at a family reunion together. As such, there's no ambiguity - joke or not, they were shown to have a familial relation. With the likes of Zeus, no such connection (That I remember) exists. True, he could just be ruling over everything once the club finishes up for the night - or, he could be returning to his universe, and ruling over there. The show absolutely allows for the interpretation that you present - however, it's equally possible that he returns to a home universe, distinct from Donald's. The show doesn't provide such context - and without any clear implications (Again, such as the family reunion photo), I think it's best not to make assumptions, at least as far as the tree would be concerned.
I'd definitely disagree with the idea of it all being transitive, though - that opens up way too many floodgates. As an example, let's look at Jake Long, who hasn't shared the screen with Mickey and Donald. He has, however, appeared in an episode of Lilo & Stitch: The Series. Stitch appears with Donald in both Kingdom Hearts and The Lion King 3. So, then, is Jake a part of this universe? Huey, Dewey and Louie appear in Cartoon All-Stars to the Rescue - do we then consider that all of those universes (ALF, Garfield, The Looney Tunes, The Smurfs, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Ghostbusters, Muppet Babies, Alvin and the Chipmunks) should be taken into consideration? Would we have to search through their media to see their understandings of the likes of Cleopatra or Medusa? Donald and the Ducktales crew appear in Chibiverse, alongside Perry the Platypus. Perry appears in both Phineas and Ferb: Mission Marvel - so, when considering the Greek Gods, would we have to consider the Marvel interpretations of them, too? If we allow for it to be transitive, you basically end up having to incorporate... most media, honestly.
I think that the obvious solution would be having a discussion when any figures like Cleopatra or Medusa (Or Zeus, if it ever came to it) are relevant. However, if we do have to impose a rule, I think the most efficient method would be: If the character is mentioned or the connection is made through Duck/Mouse comics, we accept them and work from there. If the character is mentioned or the connection is made outside of the Duck/Mouse comics, we only connect the relevant version of that character. So, for example, if we do accept Medusa, we view it specifically as the one from The Haunted Mansion, as seen in The Mouse Factory. If possible, we tie that character back to the version present in the Duck/Mouse comics.
Obviously that needs workshopping and isn't ironclad, but I do think such limits would be best placed. I do understand why you'd take the approach to versions being transitive if present in the relevant media, but I think it would raise too many problems for the tree as a whole
(Apologies again if I've misunderstood any of your points)
Resident autistic, diabetic duck fan.
I love hearing about bizarre/obscure Disney works - recommendations welcome!
House of Mouse is strange in that it contradicts the 'lore' of many of the universes within - yet it's not like Who Framed Roger Rabbit? wherein the universes are understood to be fictional. It's just kind of accepted that all of these characters can come together and have fun at the club, despite the fact that it contradicts many of the rules of many of the established universes. (…) With the likes of Zeus, no such connection (That I remember) exists. True, he could just be ruling over everything once the club finishes up for the night - or, he could be returning to his universe, and ruling over there. (…) The show absolutely allows for the interpretation that you present - however, it's equally possible that he returns to a home universe, distinct from Donald's. The show doesn't provide such context - and without any clear implications (Again, such as the family reunion photo), I think it's best not to make assumptions, at least as far as the tree would be concerned.
Well, really, if there is an implied "explanation", it lies in the opening credits, which declare that the House is located "on Main Street" — ostensibly the Disneyland Main Street. The Disney characters hang out at the House in the same way that Disneyland live events and meet'n'greets show them coexisting there… however that works. (Speaking of which, you could of course point to all types of narrative Disneyland events as connections between Renaissance-era Disney films and the Duckverse; Sorcerers of the Magic Kingdom, for example, where Hades served as the main antagonist.)
I will say that I don't think the show really makes sense from a "multiverse" point of view. We occasionally see characters leaving the House in cars and the like, not stepping through a magical portal or anything. And I think there's dialogue referring to characters' homes in a way that doesn't imply they're different worlds — I think, once, Mickey quips about having been to Bald Mountain or something of the kind, not "Bald Mountain on Earth-1940" or anything of the kind.
(Personally, as far as my headcanon is concerned, I think the characters are all from the same universe but not necessarily the same time period. So the Hercules folks might be visiting from the distant past, as opposed to being versions contemporary to the 20th/21st-century Ducks, in whose present many stories have, after all, shown the Gods to be retired.)
I'd definitely disagree with the idea of it all being transitive, though - that opens up way too many floodgates.
Well, you could get somewhere with it being first-level transitive but not second-level transitive — i.e. if Donald meets Hades then all of Hercules goes in, but not necessarily anything that Hercules has itself crossed over with. It's all a bit arbitrary in the end… and as I said I do not claim that this standard should be used for the tree, necessarily. Just musing on my personal fiendishly-inclusive definition of canon.
He has, however, appeared in an episode of Lilo & Stitch: The Series. Stitch appears with Donald in both Kingdom Hearts and The Lion King 3. So, then, is Jake a part of this universe? Huey, Dewey and Louie appear in Cartoon All-Stars to the Rescue - do we then consider that all of those universes (ALF, Garfield, The Looney Tunes, The Smurfs, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Ghostbusters, Muppet Babies, Alvin and the Chipmunks) should be taken into consideration? Would we have to search through their media to see their understandings of the likes of Cleopatra or Medusa? Donald and the Ducktales crew appear in Chibiverse, alongside Perry the Platypus. Perry appears in both Phineas and Ferb: Mission Marvel - so, when considering the Greek Gods, would we have to consider the Marvel interpretations of them, too?
Notwithstanding the above about first vs. second-level transitive, I fear I may have to accept Jake Long in some distant way… although I'll note that Kingdom Hearts is an alternative universe (or perhaps that would be a… parallel multiverse, given it's structured as a collection of pocket dimensions? hmm) relative to the classic characters. Many of the Disney movie characters are more or less the same as their originals, but that's not the case for the Ducks and Mice: the Kingdom Hearts Mickey is a King of Disney Town, who was once a Keyblade Holder, etc. etc. Indeed its "incompetent wizard" take on Donald is very close to his Wizards of Mickey counterpart; I wonder, was there any cross-pollination? (This is complicated by analogues of Steamboat Willie and Fantasia existing in KH!Mickey's backstory, but then, they also assert that the Three Musketeers movie is also somehow part of his actual biography, as opposed to being an alternate version of some kind, an ancestor, or an in-universe movie, or anything like that).
As for the other two, though, I'll free myself on two counts. Cartoon All-Stars is very much a meta thing in the vein of Roger Rabbit: all the characters are toys and comic books come to life — whether via magic or just being all in the teen boy's head, who knows. There's no assertion that the Ninja Turtles and company actually exist in the same world as one another. Actually, we never see Huey, Dewey and Louie coming to life from any toy, he just sort of runs into them at the park; so you could just about imagine that the teenager lives in Duckburg, and they're the real HDL… but that still has no bearing on the crossovers, and I don't think it was the intent in any case.
And likewise, the basic framing of Chibiverse is very explicitly that it's an alternative reality (created by "Disney mad scientists" in a lab, according to the opening credits). Besides, they're variations of the DuckTales 2017 characters, and I firmly hold the DT17 universe to be a parallel reality just as much as something like Wizards of Mickey. In any case I'm not sure the Phineas and Ferb special takes place in the normal P&F universe (whatever that is), and I'm furthermore pretty sure that it simply presents alternative versions of the Marvel characters it uses, not in-continuity with any prior iterations of the Marvel universe, meaning it has no direct connection to what the Greco-Roman gods may be like in Marvel.
…I freely recognise that all this is entirely circumstantial and the Strong Transitive Principle would uncover similar issues sooner or later, but all the fun's in nitpicking!
House of Mouse is strange in that it contradicts the 'lore' of many of the universes within - yet it's not like Who Framed Roger Rabbit? wherein the universes are understood to be fictional. It's just kind of accepted that all of these characters can come together and have fun at the club, despite the fact that it contradicts many of the rules of many of the established universes. (…) With the likes of Zeus, no such connection (That I remember) exists. True, he could just be ruling over everything once the club finishes up for the night - or, he could be returning to his universe, and ruling over there. (…) The show absolutely allows for the interpretation that you present - however, it's equally possible that he returns to a home universe, distinct from Donald's. The show doesn't provide such context - and without any clear implications (Again, such as the family reunion photo), I think it's best not to make assumptions, at least as far as the tree would be concerned.
Well, really, if there is an implied "explanation", it lies in the opening credits, which declare that the House is located "on Main Street" — ostensibly the Disneyland Main Street. The Disney characters hang out at the House in the same way that Disneyland live events and meet'n'greets show them coexisting there… however that works. (Speaking of which, you could of course point to all types of narrative Disneyland events as connections between Renaissance-era Disney films and the Duckverse; Sorcerers of the Magic Kingdom, for example, where Hades served as the main antagonist.)
I will say that I don't think the show really makes sense from a "multiverse" point of view. We occasionally see characters leaving the House in cars and the like, not stepping through a magical portal or anything. And I think there's dialogue referring to characters' homes in a way that doesn't imply they're different worlds — I think, once, Mickey quips about having been to Bald Mountain or something of the kind, not "Bald Mountain on Earth-1940" or anything of the kind.
(Personally, as far as my headcanon is concerned, I think the characters are all from the same universe but not necessarily the same time period. So the Hercules folks might be visiting from the distant past, as opposed to being versions contemporary to the 20th/21st-century Ducks, in whose present many stories have, after all, shown the Gods to be retired.)
I'd definitely disagree with the idea of it all being transitive, though - that opens up way too many floodgates.
Well, you could get somewhere with it being first-level transitive but not second-level transitive — i.e. if Donald meets Hades then all of Hercules goes in, but not necessarily anything that Hercules has itself crossed over with. It's all a bit arbitrary in the end… and as I said I do not claim that this standard should be used for the tree, necessarily. Just musing on my personal fiendishly-inclusive definition of canon.
He has, however, appeared in an episode of Lilo & Stitch: The Series. Stitch appears with Donald in both Kingdom Hearts and The Lion King 3. So, then, is Jake a part of this universe? Huey, Dewey and Louie appear in Cartoon All-Stars to the Rescue - do we then consider that all of those universes (ALF, Garfield, The Looney Tunes, The Smurfs, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Ghostbusters, Muppet Babies, Alvin and the Chipmunks) should be taken into consideration? Would we have to search through their media to see their understandings of the likes of Cleopatra or Medusa? Donald and the Ducktales crew appear in Chibiverse, alongside Perry the Platypus. Perry appears in both Phineas and Ferb: Mission Marvel - so, when considering the Greek Gods, would we have to consider the Marvel interpretations of them, too?
Notwithstanding the above about first vs. second-level transitive, I fear I may have to accept Jake Long in some distant way… although I'll note that Kingdom Hearts is an alternative universe (or perhaps that would be a… parallel multiverse, given it's structured as a collection of pocket dimensions? hmm) relative to the classic characters. Many of the Disney movie characters are more or less the same as their originals, but that's not the case for the Ducks and Mice: the Kingdom Hearts Mickey is a King of Disney Town, who was once a Keyblade Holder, etc. etc. Indeed its "incompetent wizard" take on Donald is very close to his Wizards of Mickey counterpart; I wonder, was there any cross-pollination? (This is complicated by analogues of Steamboat Willie and Fantasia existing in KH!Mickey's backstory, but then, they also assert that the Three Musketeers movie is also somehow part of his actual biography, as opposed to being an alternate version of some kind, an ancestor, or an in-universe movie, or anything like that).
As for the other two, though, I'll free myself on two counts. Cartoon All-Stars is very much a meta thing in the vein of Roger Rabbit: all the characters are toys and comic books come to life — whether via magic or just being all in the teen boy's head, who knows. There's no assertion that the Ninja Turtles and company actually exist in the same world as one another. Actually, we never see Huey, Dewey and Louie coming to life from any toy, he just sort of runs into them at the park; so you could just about imagine that the teenager lives in Duckburg, and they're the real HDL… but that still has no bearing on the crossovers, and I don't think it was the intent in any case.
And likewise, the basic framing of Chibiverse is very explicitly that it's an alternative reality (created by "Disney mad scientists" in a lab, according to the opening credits). Besides, they're variations of the DuckTales 2017 characters, and I firmly hold the DT17 universe to be a parallel reality just as much as something like Wizards of Mickey. In any case I'm not sure the Phineas and Ferb special takes place in the normal P&F universe (whatever that is), and I'm furthermore pretty sure that it simply presents alternative versions of the Marvel characters it uses, not in-continuity with any prior iterations of the Marvel universe, meaning it has no direct connection to what the Greco-Roman gods may be like in Marvel.
…I freely recognise that all this is entirely circumstantial and the Strong Transitive Principle would uncover similar issues sooner or later, but all the fun's in nitpicking!
(Apologies again if I've misunderstood any of your points)
By no means! Thank you for taking the time to follow my madness, haha.
I'll say upfront that I'm not very familiar with the Parks, so any knowledge there is fairly limited for me, sadly. As for how the House of Mouse universe makes sense... honestly, it kind of doesn't regardless as to how you interpret it; I've tried wrapping my head around it, but there are always noticeable problems that crop up. That being said, your explanation does make sense, even if I can't fathom how it would work; I know there is some kind of 'Parks canon' in which these works do... well, work together. That being said, I've never understood it, and haven't really been able to engage with it on a level that would help it to make sense to me
I can see what you're saying, though - it doesn't work for me, but I understand where you're coming from
As for the idea of first-level vs second-level transitive, I feel like that brings up its own host of problems. I won't press much on it, as I'm not trying to change your personal headcanon
I figured Kingdom Hearts wouldn't be accepted for obvious reasons - that's why I mentioned Lion King 3 as well And fair point on the examples provided - it's been quite a while since I watched Cartoon All-Stars to the Rescue, and I've never actually watched Chibiverse at all. So my mistake on both fronts! As for Marvel, I'll admit I made the assumption that it works in canon - still, given Marvel's multiverse shenanigans, I'd count it with the caveat that they're not the 616 versions of the characters
No problem, thank you for being patient with me! I tend to fixate on certain ideas, so if I've picked them up wrong it can cause confusion
Also, on a separate note, I don't know if he's accounted for, but I TL 533-A refers to Mac Paperus, a Scottish ancestor of Scrooge's who traded the Pearl of Wales for a viking helmet. The specific timeframe isn't given. If it helps, it was traded to Olalaf VI - his current day descendant is Olalaf XXXVII.
Resident autistic, diabetic duck fan.
I love hearing about bizarre/obscure Disney works - recommendations welcome!