Surviving Duck family members

[Fethryfan]

Sept 5, 2024 19:07:06 GMT RobbK1 said:

Jul 1, 2021 23:29:06 GMT Minotaur said:

Just wondering: aren't HDL as closely related to Donald as Scrooge is?

No. Huey, Dewey, and Louie are one level MORE removed from Scrooge than Donald is, as they are the progeny of Donald's sister, who is the same level of distance from Scrooge as Donald is.  So Donald IS his closest living relative, given that his sister is considered, for all intents and purposes, to be deceased (until she shows up, IF she IS alive).

I believe you read the message in the wrong way, Rob. The user you are quoting asked if the triplets weren't as related to Donald as Donald is to Scrooge, not if they were as related to Scrooge as Donald is

[Fethryfan]

Sept 5, 2024 13:10:03 GMT That Duckfan said:

May 31, 2021 22:22:16 GMT LP said:

At the time of The Strange Shipwrecks, Scrooge implies that both Hortense and Quackmore are dead, and Della is at least presumed to be dead. (And no - in context "nearest" doesn't mean spatial proximity. Scrooge is clearly referring to Donald's genealogical relation towards him.)

This is also an important plot point in Voodoo Hoodoo.

This is a very specific and early element about Donald's relationship to Scrooge which i think might disprove the theory that Barks originally saw Grandma Duck as Donald's mother, not grandmother, due to how he refers to her as HDL's grandma in some early Barks stories. Unless Barks changed his mind very early on this subject, between 1947 and 1949

[RobbK1]

Sept 5, 2024 22:48:58 GMT Fethryfan said:

Sept 5, 2024 19:07:06 GMT RobbK1 said:

No. Huey, Dewey, and Louie are one level MORE removed from Scrooge than Donald is, as they are the progeny of Donald's sister, who is the same level of distance from Scrooge as Donald is.  So Donald IS his closest living relative, given that his sister is considered, for all intents and purposes, to be deceased (until she shows up, IF she IS alive).

I believe you read the message in the wrong way, Rob. The user you are quoting asked if the triplets weren't as related to Donald as Donald is to Scrooge, not if they were as related to Scrooge as Donald is

I see what you mean, and I agree with you that Scrooge is the same to Donald as Donald is to HIS nephews.  So, the poster was correct to point out that Donald was the same to his nephews as Scrooge was to HIM.  Therefore, Scrooge was inaccurate in claiming to be Donald's nearest relative (and therefore, the latter should risk his life helping him on his "treasure hunts".  No!  On the contrary, it was Donald's duty to NOT risk his own life because HE was his nephews' guardian, and therefore not risk leaving them alone as orphans, perhaps having Scrooge adopt them and risk THEIR lives over and over, taking them on his treasure hunts, or getting them killed on the same adventure trip in which Donald gets killed.

[RobbK1]

Sept 5, 2024 22:51:48 GMT Fethryfan said:

Sept 5, 2024 13:10:03 GMT That Duckfan said:

This is also an important plot point in Voodoo Hoodoo.

This is a very specific and early element about Donald's relationship to Scrooge which i think might disprove the theory that Barks originally saw Grandma Duck as Donald's mother, not grandmother, due to how he refers to her as HDL's grandma in some early Barks stories. Unless Barks changed his mind very early on this subject, between 1947 and 1949

I asked Carl about Grandma Duck, and whether she was Donald's grandmother, or Huey, Dewey and Louie's grandmother.  He told me that even Grandma's "inventor" Al Taliaferro (or was it Bob Karp?) hadn't delineated that in The Daily Strip; so he (Barks) couldn't make that clear in any of his stories.  So, he left that issue ambiguous, just as Taliaferro continued to do.  Having Donald call her Grandma, and his doing the same is natural, as using the term great Grandmother (Overgrootmoeder) would be awfully formal, especially for a little child, who can't understand different familial relationships, and are very close to their grandparents AND their great grandparents IF they see all sets of them often. 

In our family, we just called all the great and regular grandparents the equivalent of grandmother and grandfather regardless of generation, and gave them different titles using Dutch (Oma and Opa) for parents of my mother, and Yiddish(Bubbe and Zayde) for the more religious and old-fashioned father's parents.  Donald's nephews were too young to be weened away from calling Grandma "Grandma" and explaining she's one generation older and more removed from them.  In any case, regular children readers wouldn't care about the difference, so there was no benefit to defining whose grandmother she was.

[whitewater]

Sept 6, 2024 7:29:14 GMT RobbK1 said:

Sept 5, 2024 22:51:48 GMT Fethryfan said:

This is a very specific and early element about Donald's relationship to Scrooge which i think might disprove the theory that Barks originally saw Grandma Duck as Donald's mother, not grandmother, due to how he refers to her as HDL's grandma in some early Barks stories. Unless Barks changed his mind very early on this subject, between 1947 and 1949

I asked Carl about Grandma Duck, and whether she was Donald's grandmother, or Huey, Dewey and Louie's grandmother.  He told me that even Grandma's "inventor" Al Taliaferro (or was it Bob Karp?) hadn't delineated that in The Daily Strip; so he (Barks) couldn't make that clear in any of his stories.  So, he left that issue ambiguous, just as Taliaferro continued to do.  Having Donald call her Grandma, and his doing the same is natural, as using the term great Grandmother (Overgrootmoeder) would be awfully formal, especially for a little child, who can't understand different familial relationships, and are very close to their grandparents AND their great grandparents IF they see all sets of them often. 

In our family, we just called all the great and regular grandparents the equivalent of grandmother and grandfather regardless of generation, and gave them different titles using Dutch (Oma and Opa) for parents of my mother, and Yiddish(Bubbe and Zayde) for the more religious and old-fashioned father's parents.  Donald's nephews were too young to be weened away from calling Grandma "Grandma" and explaining she's one generation older and more removed from them.  In any case, regular children readers wouldn't care about the difference, so there was no benefit to defining whose grandmother she was.

Barks believed that Grandma was Donald's paternal grandmother, seen on his trees, I believe that it was both Taliaferro and Karp that created her, but Taliferro did the designing. I don't know why Donald would call his mother Grandma, because in Rosa's comics he calls his mother "Ma", and plus how would Gladstone be related to Grandma if she was his maternal grandmother? Another problem with Grandma being Donald's mother is the age, she would have been 65 at least, if she had Donald.

During your conversations with Mr. Barks, did he ever comment on any other relatives, I would like to hear more about his thoughts on the Duck family. 

[whitewater]

Sept 5, 2024 22:51:48 GMT Fethryfan said:

Sept 5, 2024 13:10:03 GMT That Duckfan said:

This is also an important plot point in Voodoo Hoodoo.

This is a very specific and early element about Donald's relationship to Scrooge which i think might disprove the theory that Barks originally saw Grandma Duck as Donald's mother, not grandmother, due to how he refers to her as HDL's grandma in some early Barks stories. Unless Barks changed his mind very early on this subject, between 1947 and 1949

Barks had an original different design to Grandma, it looks much different than his later versions. I guess he referred to her as HDL's grandmother, due to her really being their only grandmother still living (or at least in their lives), since Downy, and maybe Hortense have died. Grandma Duck is kind of like an honorary grandmother, even though she is the great-grandmother to her, even Scrooge and Gus refer to her as Grandma, that's probably just to honor her. 

[Fethryfan]

Sept 6, 2024 7:29:14 GMT RobbK1 said:

Sept 5, 2024 22:51:48 GMT Fethryfan said:

This is a very specific and early element about Donald's relationship to Scrooge which i think might disprove the theory that Barks originally saw Grandma Duck as Donald's mother, not grandmother, due to how he refers to her as HDL's grandma in some early Barks stories. Unless Barks changed his mind very early on this subject, between 1947 and 1949

I asked Carl about Grandma Duck, and whether she was Donald's grandmother, or Huey, Dewey and Louie's grandmother.  He told me that even Grandma's "inventor" Al Taliaferro (or was it Bob Karp?) hadn't delineated that in The Daily Strip; so he (Barks) couldn't make that clear in any of his stories.  So, he left that issue ambiguous, just as Taliaferro continued to do.  Having Donald call her Grandma, and his doing the same is natural, as using the term great Grandmother (Overgrootmoeder) would be awfully formal, especially for a little child, who can't understand different familial relationships, and are very close to their grandparents AND their great grandparents IF they see all sets of them often. 

In our family, we just called all the great and regular grandparents the equivalent of grandmother and grandfather regardless of generation, and gave them different titles using Dutch (Oma and Opa) for parents of my mother, and Yiddish(Bubbe and Zayde) for the more religious and old-fashioned father's parents.  Donald's nephews were too young to be weened away from calling Grandma "Grandma" and explaining she's one generation older and more removed from them.  In any case, regular children readers wouldn't care about the difference, so there was no benefit to defining whose grandmother she was.

Both Bob Karp and Al Taliaferro created Grandma Duck. Thank you for the information, Rob!

It's the same in my family, when my great-grandmother was alive i would just call her grandma - same way i called her daughter grandma. Although it did confused me a little bit when i was 5 or 6, hahaha

[Fethryfan]

Sept 6, 2024 15:54:28 GMT whitewater said:

Sept 5, 2024 22:51:48 GMT Fethryfan said:

This is a very specific and early element about Donald's relationship to Scrooge which i think might disprove the theory that Barks originally saw Grandma Duck as Donald's mother, not grandmother, due to how he refers to her as HDL's grandma in some early Barks stories. Unless Barks changed his mind very early on this subject, between 1947 and 1949

Barks had an original different design to Grandma, it looks much different than his later versions. I guess he referred to her as HDL's grandmother, due to her really being their only grandmother still living (or at least in their lives), since Downy, and maybe Hortense have died. Grandma Duck is kind of like an honorary grandmother, even though she is the great-grandmother to her, even Scrooge and Gus refer to her as Grandma, that's probably just to honor her. 

I'm assuming you are talking about this Grandma Duck from Best Christmas, right?
 

Indeed, she is rather different from regular Grandma Duck. I wonder if Barks knew of the character at the time and just forgot how she looked like or if he didn't and just made a new Grandma whom he later conflated with Karp and Taliaferro's Grandma. We have discussed her in the forum a couple of years ago, it's a very particular design. Barks wouldn't use Grandma Duck again for almost 2 years after that

[whitewater]

Sept 6, 2024 16:44:43 GMT Fethryfan said:

Sept 6, 2024 15:54:28 GMT whitewater said:

Barks had an original different design to Grandma, it looks much different than his later versions. I guess he referred to her as HDL's grandmother, due to her really being their only grandmother still living (or at least in their lives), since Downy, and maybe Hortense have died. Grandma Duck is kind of like an honorary grandmother, even though she is the great-grandmother to her, even Scrooge and Gus refer to her as Grandma, that's probably just to honor her. 

I'm assuming you are talking about this Grandma Duck from Best Christmas, right?
 

Indeed, she is rather different from regular Grandma Duck. I wonder if Barks knew of the character at the time and just forgot how she looked like or if he didn't and just made a new Grandma whom he later conflated with Karp and Taliaferro's Grandma. We have discussed her in the forum a couple of years ago, it's a very particular design. Barks wouldn't use Grandma Duck again for almost 2 years after that

Yes, it was this story. The story refers to her as Grandma Duck, so it is the same character, but it is such a different design than what is usually used to. Considering that it is the same character, I believe that Barks was unaware of Karp and Taliaferro's Grandma design, but he became aware of their design, and he used it. That's the best possible explanation, but I've seen theories that this is Hortense McDuck, but even this doesn't look like her. 

[whitewater]

Sept 6, 2024 16:40:11 GMT Fethryfan said:

Sept 6, 2024 7:29:14 GMT RobbK1 said:

I asked Carl about Grandma Duck, and whether she was Donald's grandmother, or Huey, Dewey and Louie's grandmother.  He told me that even Grandma's "inventor" Al Taliaferro (or was it Bob Karp?) hadn't delineated that in The Daily Strip; so he (Barks) couldn't make that clear in any of his stories.  So, he left that issue ambiguous, just as Taliaferro continued to do.  Having Donald call her Grandma, and his doing the same is natural, as using the term great Grandmother (Overgrootmoeder) would be awfully formal, especially for a little child, who can't understand different familial relationships, and are very close to their grandparents AND their great grandparents IF they see all sets of them often. 

In our family, we just called all the great and regular grandparents the equivalent of grandmother and grandfather regardless of generation, and gave them different titles using Dutch (Oma and Opa) for parents of my mother, and Yiddish(Bubbe and Zayde) for the more religious and old-fashioned father's parents.  Donald's nephews were too young to be weened away from calling Grandma "Grandma" and explaining she's one generation older and more removed from them.  In any case, regular children readers wouldn't care about the difference, so there was no benefit to defining whose grandmother she was.

Both Bob Karp and Al Taliaferro created Grandma Duck. Thank you for the information, Rob!

It's the same in my family, when my great-grandmother was alive i would just call her grandma - same way i called her daughter grandma. Although it did confused me a little bit when i was 5 or 6, hahaha

That was the same way in my family, we always referred to my great-grandmothers as Grandma -, instead of great-grandma, which it just to long and complicated for a child. 

Here is W.H.A.D.A.L.O.T.T.A.J.A.R.G.O.N by Rosa, it refers to Grandma Duck as their great-grandmother. See here. Grandma Duck says "No! I'm their Great-Grandmother! I had no notion you demanded such percise speech here!", thus there is confirmation. 

[sim]

In at least one Barks story, Donald says/thinks: "their grandmother".

[whitewater]

Sept 6, 2024 18:06:35 GMT sim said:

In at least one Barks story, Donald says/thinks: "their grandmother".

I'm sure Barks meant great-grandmother, but she is actually their great-grandmother (see both Barks's family trees).

[whitewater]

Does anyone know of any story that mentions Grandma only having Donald and Gladstone has her only grandchildren? I know Rosa also added Whitewater and Fethry, but was there any Barks story (or any other) comic that showed Grandma as only having these two, besides Della?

[LP]

Sept 6, 2024 17:10:13 GMT whitewater said:

Yes, it was this story. The story refers to her as Grandma Duck, so it is the same character, but it is such a different design than what is usually used to.

I don't think this is true. I just re-read the story to check, and the Ducks only refer to her as "Grandma" (and "Grandmother"). 

Personally, I prefer to think of the Best Cristmas-Grandma as Hortense. She doesn't visually match Elvira and she doesn't live on a farm. She acts more energetically than we're used to see from Elvira. Since we don't know what Hortense looked like, where she lived, or what she was like in her old age, it makes far more sense to me to retcon this into being a separate character. Of course, she would have passed away off-screen a while later. Also, Donald referring to his own mother as "Grandma" would make sense in the context of talking to HDL, who are very young in this story.

Anyways, this has been discussed elsewhere. I don't mean to further re-hash this same discussion again.

[whitewater]

Sept 7, 2024 12:14:13 GMT LP said:

Sept 6, 2024 17:10:13 GMT whitewater said:

Yes, it was this story. The story refers to her as Grandma Duck, so it is the same character, but it is such a different design than what is usually used to.

I don't think this is true. I just re-read the story to check, and the Ducks only refer to her as "Grandma" (and "Grandmother"). 

Personally, I prefer to think of the Best Cristmas-Grandma as Hortense. She doesn't visually match Elvira and she doesn't live on a farm. She acts more energetically than we're used to see from Elvira. Since we don't know what Hortense looked like, where she lived, or what she was like in her old age, it makes far more sense to me to retcon this into being a separate character. Of course, she would have passed away off-screen a while later. Also, Donald referring to his own mother as "Grandma" would make sense in the context of talking to HDL, who are very young in this story.

Anyways, this has been discussed elsewhere. I don't mean to further re-hash this same discussion again.

I've been beginning to think that this could be true, if it is Hortense, maybe she was a widow by this time? Donald mentions borrowing a "Grandpa's buggy", so maybe this was Quackmore who died after 1943, and Hortense died after 1945. But, they died sometime before Scrooge first said he was the last living McDuck/Donald was his closest relative. 

I know that a website that mentions Barks's works, says this Grandma is the same as Grandma Elvira Duck, my theory is Humperdink Duck could be different from the one mentioned owning a buggy, and that he died between 1930 and 1940, since he was around for Donald and Gladstone's early childhood, but Grandma Duck is a widow by 1940, see here. Further evidence that Humperdink died around this time is in a 1960 story, I believe, Grandma says to Daisy that she hadn't cried in over 20 years, maybe at Humperdink's death. Whenever Grandpa Humperdink Duck appears/mentioned it's always in flash backs, and this could be more evidence for Quackmore being this Grandpa, and Hortense being the Grandma in Best Christmas.

Agreed, but I don't think Barks intended this Grandma to be Donald's mother.