Grandma Duck as Scrooge's sister: where does it come from ?

[Scrooge MacDuck]

I see. Well, I'm kinda sad this can't be canon, because the McDuck family looks *awfully cute* here.

[sirtao]

Given Magica introduces herself as Scrooge's aunt and the duck lady is happy a relative of his has come around, I'm going to wager they aren't his parents.

[Scroogerello]

Apr 15, 2018 22:35:33 GMT sirtao said:

Given Magica introduces herself as Scrooge's aunt and the duck lady is happy a relative of his has come around, I'm going to wager they aren't his parents.

Ah okay, thanks. I must have gotten confused with the Italian dialogue then; I had to "decipher" it via translation engines , as I don't speak Italian myself.

In that case, the first appearance of Scrooge's parents is still the Scarpa/Martina story that Scrooge MacDuck mentioned.

[Scroogerello]

Quite notably, today's issue of the Dutch Donald Duck Weekly has a brand new story: inducks.org/story.php?c=H+2011-245 in which Scrooge refers to Grandma as "zusterlief" ("dearest sister").

[jopduck1]

And "Mijn Broer Kennende".

[Matilda]

So, the Dutch publishers' working canon seems to have Scrooge and Grandma Duck as siblings. Or at least to allow for that as an option, whether or not they insist on it in new Dutch stories or in translations of other stories. What's the situation with the other publishers? My sense is that Egmont wants to keep things aligned with the Rosa&Barks family tree. Is that true? Do the Italians have any working canon on the family tree? They have Rota's birthday story, of course,which doesn't accord with the Barks&Rosa tree. But I don't know whether they tell writers how to approach this. Some Italian writers may have been influenced by Rosa and simply choose to write the family relationships to accord with that tree.

Scroogerello, did you see the 2017 Dutch Christmas issue with the story including Scrooge's family of origin? I see that while baby Hortense appears in it, Matilda is not listed. Maybe they avoid the problem of whether she is or isn't GD by not including her in the flashback. Also, if anyone is willing to post scans of how the McDuck family appears in that story, I'd love to see them! (Perhaps on a new thread...)

[Scroogerello]

May 17, 2018 15:50:32 GMT Matilda said:

Scroogerello, did you see the 2017 Dutch Christmas issue with the story including Scrooge's family of origin? I see that while baby Hortense appears in it, Matilda is not listed. Maybe they avoid the problem of whether she is or isn't GD by not including her in the flashback. Also, if anyone is willing to post scans of how the McDuck family appears in that story, I'd love to see them! (Perhaps on a new thread...)

No, unfortunately, I just missed it, since I wasn't aware that it had been printed; I learnt about the story just after Christmas, and none of the local comic stores still had the issue. Maybe some of the other Dutch members have access to the story, though? It's easy to miss, since it's one of the only issues that's only around for a (relatively) short period of time in the weeks leading up to Christmas, and then never gets reprinted or re-released afterwards. Although some of the Scandinavian countries (or perhaps France) might print the story next Christmas.

[Matilda]

Let me try to sum up what's been said on this thread:

Germany:

First German story dialogue with Scrooge and GD as siblings: 1958 translation of 1956 "Scrooge's Second Childhood" (reprinted same way in Germany in 1997)

various German translations through the years state that GD is Donald's aunt (and Daisy's aunt, sigh) *and* once, at least, HDL's [great-?]aunt! (She refers to them as "meine drei Neffen." I can understand the theory that Donald is her nephew and HDL are her grandchildren, but making HDL her [great-]nephews seems bizarre. Have Germans in general thought of Donald as GD's nephew and HDL as her grandchildren? Then this story is an outlier. How did Grandma Duck get the "official nickname" Grandma Duck if she is nobody's grandmother?) Drakeborough's German correspondent says that the theory that GD is Donald's aunt is not universally accepted among German translators today. (Well, they couldn't pull that off in translations of L&T, anyway.)

Italy: (not implying that these are *all* the stories that showed Scrooge & GD as siblings, just listing ones mentioned in this thread)

1960 poetry by Martina/painting by Scarpa (but 1955 story by Martina shows them growing up in the same town/school, but definitely not siblings)

1973 story ("totem decapitano") by Martina, dialogue seems to have been edited to make Scrooge & GD brother & sister

1984 Rota's "from egg to duck" depicts Scrooge and GD as siblings, GD as Donald's adoptive mother--later Donald found to be actually Scrooge's nephew?

1996 story "le notizie...fraterne" shows Scrooge, Gideon and GD together as child-siblings in Scotland

last story known by drakeborough to have Scrooge and GD be siblings is 1999 "un cent per Millicent"

S-coded stories:

1969 "Circle of Evil"--in the Italian translation, GD calls Scrooge "fratello caro"

1982 "No Sale" and 1983 "Good Old Exciting Days" by Nofziger--in German translation, it is said, they are presented as siblings, but in Italian translation they are not

random American stories:

1953 Vacation Parade 4 Grandma Duck story by Christensen--GD mentions "Cousin Scrooge," while Donald is referred to as GD's nephew (but then, this story involves Minnie Mouse, so... Is this the story Deb referred to, where Minnie calls her "Grandma"?)

1963 "Too Much Mush" author unknown--Donald referred to as GD's nephew (thus, possibly, GD and Scrooge are siblings)

Netherlands:

A 1994 "photo album" piece shows the family with baby Scrooge, child GD and their parents. Rob reports that his impression is that Scrooge and GD were originally said to be Donald's uncle and grandmother in Dutch comics, and not portrayed as siblings in Dutch comics until the late 1980's or 1990's. Can any other of you Dutch folks confirm this? (Of course, they could be Donald's great-uncle and grandmother and still be siblings...but Rob doesn't remember their being presented as siblings earlier.) Rob says that the Dutch may have gotten the sibling idea from the Italians or the Germans. Currently, though, it seems that the sibling theory is working canon for the Dutch editors. See Scroogerello's link to Geradts' blog, where he says a story of his was rejected in 2014 because Scrooge was too nasty to GD, and he wouldn't treat his sister that way. Also, a brand-new Dutch story has Scrooge calling GD "dear sister".

[Matilda]

And what's the history of Scrooge & Grandma Duck's connection in Egmont stories? Is it true that post-Rosa, Egmont editors want to keep things consistent with the Barks&Rosa family tree? What about pre-Rosa? I've only read one D-coded story where Scrooge and GD are presented as siblings: the Halas & Angus/Branca Bananas. In that story, GD finds an old postcard from her cousin Amanda/Mathilde in Scrooge's house, and there would be no reason for her to find it there if Amanda weren't also Scrooge's cousin. (I'm trying to go here on the storyline as conveyed in the art, rather than on the dialogue which could have been more easily influenced by translators.) But there could be lots more pre-Rosa D-coded stories with Scrooge and GD portrayed as siblings.

[Matilda]

Does Scrooge ever appear, or is he spoken of, in the Donald Duckling stories? If so, is a relationship between Scrooge and GD made explicit?

[Scrooge MacDuck]

May 17, 2018 19:54:21 GMT Matilda said:

Does Scrooge ever appear, or is he spoken of, in the Donald Duckling stories? If so, is a relationship between Scrooge and GD made explicit?

You seem to be ovelrooking that Un Cent per Millicent is, in fact, a Donald Duckling story. Scrooge has appeared a couple of times in the series, including this one, which makes an unusual effort to take full advantage of the "prequel" aspect of the Duckling stories, by serving as an "origin story" for Albert Quackmore and how he comes to be hired by Scrooge as his butler.

In this story Grandma casually asks a reluctant Scrooge to babysit kid-Donald for a day, which is consistent with their being siblings, but can also fit with Rosa canon if you fudge a detail here or there. FYI, in that story, Donald knows Scrooge, but not well at all; he seems to know him as much as he's shown to in Bear Mountain, e.g., he knows he's super-rich, his uncle, and notoriously miserly, but that's about it.

[Matilda]

May 17, 2018 20:06:55 GMT Scrooge MacDuck said:

May 17, 2018 19:54:21 GMT Matilda said:

Does Scrooge ever appear, or is he spoken of, in the Donald Duckling stories? If so, is a relationship between Scrooge and GD made explicit?

You seem to be ovelrooking that Un Cent per Millicent is, in fact, a Donald Duckling story. Scrooge has appeared a couple of times in the series, including this one, which makes an unusual effort to take full advantage of the "prequel" aspect of the Duckling stories, by serving as an "origin story" for Albert Quackmore and how he comes to be hired by Scrooge as his butler.

In this story Grandma casually asks a reluctant Scrooge to babysit kid-Donald for a day, which is consistent with their being siblings, but can also fit with Rosa canon if you fudge a detail here or there. FYI, in that story, Donald knows Scrooge, but not well at all; he seems to know him as much as he's shown to in Bear Mountain, e.g., he knows he's super-rich, his uncle, and notoriously miserly, but that's about it.

Thanks. Didn't notice that "un cent" was a Donald Duckling story. So, as far as you know, the Donald Duckling stories have not explicitly stated any relationship between Scrooge & GD?

[Scrooge MacDuck]

May 17, 2018 20:12:40 GMT Matilda said:

May 17, 2018 20:06:55 GMT Scrooge MacDuck said:

You seem to be ovelrooking that Un Cent per Millicent is, in fact, a Donald Duckling story. Scrooge has appeared a couple of times in the series, including this one, which makes an unusual effort to take full advantage of the "prequel" aspect of the Duckling stories, by serving as an "origin story" for Albert Quackmore and how he comes to be hired by Scrooge as his butler.

In this story Grandma casually asks a reluctant Scrooge to babysit kid-Donald for a day, which is consistent with their being siblings, but can also fit with Rosa canon if you fudge a detail here or there. FYI, in that story, Donald knows Scrooge, but not well at all; he seems to know him as much as he's shown to in Bear Mountain, e.g., he knows he's super-rich, his uncle, and notoriously miserly, but that's about it.

Thanks. Didn't notice that "un cent" was a Donald Duckling story. So, as far as you know, the Donald Duckling stories have not explicitly stated any relationship between Scrooge & GD?

Well, again, per Drakeborough Un Cent does, and it's a Duckling story. But no, I don't know any others. This doesn't mean much, though, because I don't really like most Duckling stories and have skimmed through a lot of those I've read.

[Matilda]

May 17, 2018 20:19:21 GMT Scrooge MacDuck said:

May 17, 2018 20:12:40 GMT Matilda said:

Thanks. Didn't notice that "un cent" was a Donald Duckling story. So, as far as you know, the Donald Duckling stories have not explicitly stated any relationship between Scrooge & GD?

Well, again, per Drakeborough Un Cent does, and it's a Duckling story. But no, I don't know any others. This doesn't mean much, though, because I don't really like most Duckling stories and have skimmed through a lot of those I've read.

Oops, my mistake (again)! I didn't keep straight what I'd just reported, there.

The Donald Duckling stories have various continuity problems in my mind, as I've said elsewhere. Just curious as to how much they present Scrooge & GD as siblings. I wonder whether Korhonen has said anything about the Scrooge/GD relationship in his Donald Duckling stories? Or the question of whether Donald Duckling was aware of his uncle Scrooge? Scrooge doesn't actually appear in any of his Donald Duckling stories.

[Scroogerello]

May 17, 2018 19:40:16 GMT Matilda said:

Let me try to sum up what's been said on this thread:

Germany:

First German story dialogue with Scrooge and GD as siblings: 1958 translation of 1956 "Scrooge's Second Childhood" (reprinted same way in Germany in 1997)

various German translations through the years state that GD is Donald's aunt (and Daisy's aunt, sigh) *and* once, at least, HDL's [great-?]aunt! (She refers to them as "meine drei Neffen." I can understand the theory that Donald is her nephew and HDL are her grandchildren, but making HDL her [great-]nephews seems bizarre. Have Germans in general thought of Donald as GD's nephew and HDL as her grandchildren? Then this story is an outlier. How did Grandma Duck get the "official nickname" Grandma Duck if she is nobody's grandmother?) Drakeborough's German correspondent says that the theory that GD is Donald's aunt is not universally accepted among German translators today. (Well, they couldn't pull that off in translations of L&T, anyway.)

Italy: (not implying that these are *all* the stories that showed Scrooge & GD as siblings, just listing ones mentioned in this thread)

1960 poetry by Martina/painting by Scarpa (but 1955 story by Martina shows them growing up in the same town/school, but definitely not siblings)

1973 story ("totem decapitano") by Martina, dialogue seems to have been edited to make Scrooge & GD brother & sister

1984 Rota's "from egg to duck" depicts Scrooge and GD as siblings, GD as Donald's adoptive mother--later Donald found to be actually Scrooge's nephew?

1996 story "le notizie...fraterne" shows Scrooge, Gideon and GD together as child-siblings in Scotland

last story known by drakeborough to have Scrooge and GD be siblings is 1999 "un cent per Millicent"

S-coded stories:

1969 "Circle of Evil"--in the Italian translation, GD calls Scrooge "fratello caro"

1982 "No Sale" and 1983 "Good Old Exciting Days" by Nofziger--in German translation, it is said, they are presented as siblings, but in Italian translation they are not

random American stories:

1953 Vacation Parade 4 Grandma Duck story by Christensen--GD mentions "Cousin Scrooge," while Donald is referred to as GD's nephew (but then, this story involves Minnie Mouse, so... Is this the story Deb referred to, where Minnie calls her "Grandma"?)

1963 "Too Much Mush" author unknown--Donald referred to as GD's nephew (thus, possibly, GD and Scrooge are siblings)

Netherlands:

A 1994 "photo album" piece shows the family with baby Scrooge, child GD and their parents. Rob reports that his impression is that Scrooge and GD were originally said to be Donald's uncle and grandmother in Dutch comics, and not portrayed as siblings in Dutch comics until the late 1980's or 1990's. Can any other of you Dutch folks confirm this? (Of course, they could be Donald's great-uncle and grandmother and still be siblings...but Rob doesn't remember their being presented as siblings earlier.) Rob says that the Dutch may have gotten the sibling idea from the Italians or the Germans. Currently, though, it seems that the sibling theory is working canon for the Dutch editors. See Scroogerello's link to Geradts' blog, where he says a story of his was rejected in 2014 because Scrooge was too nasty to GD, and he wouldn't treat his sister that way. Also, a brand-new Dutch story has Scrooge calling GD "dear sister".

Also, this Brazilian story: inducks.org/story.php?c=B+820168 shows Scrooge and Grandma together during their childhood, with their shared relatives, so I'm guessing the Brazilians also have/had the tradition. Haven't read the story, though, but it seems pretty clear from the scans on the INDUCKS.