It is said in many stories that only the Junior Woodchucks can cosult the Guidebook, but which story first introduced this idea?
It's generally said that it's in Barks's Atlantis story that the Guidebook was introduced. I recall, however, that someone pointed out, in the comments of GeoX's blog, a pre-Atlantis story by someone else than Barks that mentioned a Junior Woodchucks Guidebook (though it wasn't yet a source of absurdly obscure infos, just a regular scouting guidebook).
It is said in many stories that only the Junior Woodchucks can cosult the Guidebook, but which story first introduced this idea?
It's generally said that it's in Barks's Atlantis story that the Guidebook was introduced. I recall, however, that someone pointed out, in the comments of GeoX's blog, a pre-Atlantis story by someone else than Barks that mentioned a Junior Woodchucks Guidebook (though it wasn't yet a source of absurdly obscure infos, just a regular scouting guidebook).
I guess you are referring to the (then) anon which commentend "Guardians of the Lost Library" on GeoX's blog: that was me. The pre-Atlantis story is this untitled story from Donald Duck #30 (July 1953), written by Carl Fallberg and drawn by Jack Bradbury. Here is a panel from the story:
For reference, Barks' Atlantis story was finished on July 30, 1953 and printed in Uncle Scrooge #5 (March 1954).
Did Barks took inspiration from this story while introducing the guidebook into his universe? Or did both Fallberg and Barks independently come up with the same idea, based on the obvious fact that a parody of the Boy Scouts warranted a parody of the Boy Scout Handbook? The fact that the name of the guidebook in the Fallberg story is different may suggest it's the latter, but this doesn't prove anything since Barks himself changed the name of the guidebook from Junior Woodchuck's Book of Knowledge in the Atlantis story to Junior Woodchucks' Guide Book (which, spelling variants notwithstanding, became the official name) in the story "Tralla La". I guess we will never know.
Anyway, I think that my first post was a bit ambiguous: I didn't mean to ask which story introduced the guidebook, I wanted to ask which story introduced the idea that the guidebook can only be consulted by the Junior Woodchucks.
Last Edit: Mar 3, 2017 11:40:36 GMT by drakeborough
It's generally said that it's in Barks's Atlantis story that the Guidebook was introduced. I recall, however, that someone pointed out, in the comments of GeoX's blog, a pre-Atlantis story by someone else than Barks that mentioned a Junior Woodchucks Guidebook (though it wasn't yet a source of absurdly obscure infos, just a regular scouting guidebook).
I guess you are referring to the (then) anon which commentend "Guardians of the Lost Library" on GeoX's blog: that was me. The pre-Atlantis story is this untitled story from Donald Duck #30 (July 1953), written by Carl Fallberg and drawn by Jack Bradbury. Here is a panel from the story:
For reference, Barks' Atlantis story was finished on July 30, 1953 and printed in Uncle Scrooge #5 (March 1954).
Did Barks took inspiration from this story while introducing the guidebook into his universe? Or did both Fallberg and Barks independently come up with the same idea, based on the obvious fact that a parody of the Boy Scouts warranted a parody of the Boy Scout Handbook? The fact that the name of the guidebook in the Fallberg story is different may suggest it's the latter, but this doesn't prove anything since Barks himself changed the name of the guidebook from Junior Woodchuck's Book of Knowledge in the Atlantis story to Junior Woodchucks' Guide Book (which, spelling variants notwithstanding, became the official name) in the story "Tralla La". I guess we will never know.
Anyway, I think that my first post was a bit ambiguous: I didn't mean to ask which story introduced the guidebook, I wanted to ask which story introduced the idea that the guidebook can only be consulted by the Junior Woodchucks.
Ah. Sorry. I'm afraid I did indeed misunderstand; your thread title is pretty vague, isn't it? I know that Don Rosa used it as early as in Son of the Sun (1987), where we see Glomgold violate that rule, but that it definitely wasn't known to American writers in 1970, since the story The Balloonists (HDL Junior Woodchucks #6) allows Scrooge to buy an out-of-date copy of the guidebook at a fleas market. Really, unless anything else surfaces, I would guess Rosa made it up. It would fit him, as this rule patches up an otherwise Class 1 plothole: why the heck every scientist on Earth isn't copying down the Guidebook, advancing the Technology and History of the Duckverse far beyond the 20th century.
Ah. Sorry. I'm afraid I did indeed misunderstand; your thread title is pretty vague, isn't it?
Yes, it's pretty vague. I guess I figured I could still use this topic for other guidebook-related questions even after I get an answer to the one I already asked.
I know that Don Rosa used it as early as in Son of the Sun (1987), where we see Glomgold violate that rule, but that it definitely wasn't known to American writers in 1970, since the story The Balloonists (HDL Junior Woodchucks #6) allows Scrooge to buy an out-of-date copy of the guidebook at a fleas market. Really, unless anything else surfaces, I would guess Rosa made it up.
I also used to think that Rosa made it up, since (unless I am forgetting something) Barks never used this rule, while I knew Rosa used it as early as his first story.
However, yesterday I happened on a copy of Topolino #192, which first printed Barks' riveboat story with young Scrooge, Ratchet Gearloose, Blackheart Beagle and the latter's brawling sons. The same issue of Topolino also has other stories from the single-issue comic book "Uncle Scrooge Goes to Disneyland" (1957), which makes sense since all stories from that comic are tied together by a frame story.
Long story short, one of the episodes (this one) has Donald and HDL ending up in another planet, and HDL show the prowess of their guidebook to the leader of that planet (incidently, the writer is Fallberg, which as we saw used the Guidebook even before Barks did; the artist is Strobl). When said leader asks if he can see the guidebook, HDL deny him that, saying (my translation from the Italian text):
NEPHEW 1: We are sorry, Dr. Quantum, but only the senior Junior Woodchucks have the right to use this guidebook!
NEPHEW 2: We are really sorry!
NEPHEW 3: It's a commitment that we have sworn to maintain!
This dialogue suggests that, even back then, the only-woodchucks-can-see-the-guidebook idea was common knowledge between authors and readers. And I was surprised because, like I said, I used to think the idea first appeared in The Son of the Sun. Did Rosa read that story? I guess so, since it was published in the same comic that printed Barks' riveboat story.
Anyway, I wonder: is this the only pre-Rosa story to use this idea ("it's for Woodchucks only"), or are there other old stories to use it? You mentioned a 1970 story where Scrooge can buy an old copy of the guidebook, but this fact alone doesn't negate the possibility that there was a point in which the idea was mainstream for most American writers.
Also, if an American reader here has a copy of the story, I would like to know what are the actual English lines the nephews say.
Last Edit: Mar 3, 2017 20:05:38 GMT by drakeborough
Here it is! As you can see the lines are pretty much the same. (I also have a Greek version of the story from 1980 with more or less the same dialogue apart from Dr. Quantum's name which was inexplicably translated as Dr. Pipis Poupas, which means absolutely nothing and sounds both silly and hilarious!)
Here it is! As you can see the lines are pretty much the same.
Thanks for the image. The lines are indeed very similar to the Italian version I saw, which means this 1957 story (predating The Son of the Sun by 30 years) does indeed use the idea that only JW can read the guidebook. I'll repost here the image so that the panels can be seen better and the lines can be read without the need to open the picture in another page:
I'll wait to see if some user can find other pre-1987 stories which use this idea. Meanwhile, I point out that in this story the guidebook is called "Junior Woodchuck Manual", which is yet another alternate name for it. So far, we had "Junior Woodchuck Handbook" in the Fallberg/Bradbury unnamed story (1953), "Junior Woodchuck's Book of Knowledge" in Barks' Atlantis story (1954), and "Junior Woodchucks' Guide Book" in Barks' "Tralla La" (1957). The latter became the official name (spelling variants notwithstanding), and yet the image above shows that as late as 1957 there could still be an occasional name variation.
"Full-fledged Junior Woodchucks": this expression makes sense, as I guess it simply refer to all people who passed the admission test to become a JW. The expression used in the Italian translation (which means "senior Junior Woodchucks") doesn't make as much sense, since it is an oxymoron. By the way, how many stories use the expression "Senior Woodchucks"? I know Rosa used it in "Guardians of the Lost Library" to indicate a troop leader and former JW, but since I usually don't read duck stories in English I don't know if Barks ever used that expression. A quick Inducks search tells me that: this 1965 S-coded story (?/Phil DeLara) is titled "Senior Woodchuck"; this 2006 Danish story (Kari Korhonen) is titled "The Senior Woodchuck" (with the article dropped in the USA version); this 2006 Danish story (Terry LaBan/Tino Santanach Hernandez) is titled "Senior Woodchucks".
One last trivia: six pages before the one posted above, there is a scene in which a speaker says (again, my translation from the Italian text) "Gentlemen, we are approaching the planet Cosmo: our residence!". One nephew says "Cosmo?! It can't be found in the astronomy chapter of our guidebook!", and another nephew says "Strange: I have always thought that anything could be found in it!" This is an early use of the "not in the guidebook" gag that was made famous by Rosa in "A Letter from Home", though in the 1957 story it's just a 1-panel joke. Barks himself used the same gag in "The Many Faces of Magica De Spell" (1964), though again as a 1-panel joke.
Last Edit: Mar 4, 2017 17:36:04 GMT by drakeborough
Here it is! As you can see the lines are pretty much the same.
Thanks for the image. The lines are indeed very similar to the Italian version I saw, which means this 1957 story (predating The Son of the Sun by 30 years) does indeed use the idea that only JW can read the guidebook. I'll repost here the image so that the panels can be seen better and the lines can be read without the need to open the picture in another page:
I'll wait to see if some user can find other pre-1987 stories which use this idea. Meanwhile, I point out that in this story the guidebook is called "Junior Woodchuck Manual", which is yet another alternate name for it. So far, we had "Junior Woodchuck Handbook" in the Fallberg/Bradbury unnamed story (1953), "Junior Woodchuck's Book of Knowledge" in Barks' Atlantis story (1954), and "Junior Woodchucks' Guide Book" in Barks' "Tralla La" (1957). The latter became the official name (spelling variants notwithstanding), and yet the image above shows that as late as 1957 there could still be an occasional name variation.
"Full-fledged Junior Woodchucks": this expression makes sense, as I guess it simply refer to all people who passed the admission test to become a JW. The expression used in the Italian translation (which means "senior Junior Woodchucks") doesn't make as much sense, since it is an oxymoron. By the way, how many stories use the expression "Senior Woodchucks"? I know Rosa used it in "Guardians of the Lost Library" to indicate a troop leader and former JW, but since I usually don't read duck stories in English I don't know if Barks ever used that expression. A quick Inducks search tells me that: this 1965 S-coded story (?/Phil DeLara) is titled "Senior Woodchuck"; this 2006 Danish story (Kari Korhonen) is titled "The Senior Woodchuck" (with the article dropped in the USA version); this 2006 Danish story (Terry LaBan/Tino Santanach Hernandez) is titled "Senior Woodchucks".
One last trivia: six pages before the one posted above, there is a scene in which a speaker says (again, my translation from the Italian text) "Gentlemen, we are approaching the planet Cosmo: our residence!". One nephew says "Cosmo?! It can't be found in the astronomy chapter of our guidebook!", and another nephew says "Strange: I have always thought that anything could be found in it!" This is an early use of the "not in the guidebook" gag that was made famous by Rosa in "A Letter from Home", though in the 1957 story it's just a 1-panel joke. Barks himself used the same gag in "The Many Faces of Magica De Spell" (1964), though again as a 1-panel joke.
For what it's worth, in the French dub of DuckTales, Doofus Drake's name becomes 'Major Woodchuck'. Also, I recall a Mickey Mouse Works cartoon where Donald (!) was a Junior Woodchuck, implying there's no age limit.
Also, I recall a Mickey Mouse Works cartoon where Donald (!) was a Junior Woodchuck, implying there's no age limit.
I did a brief research and found the cartoon you mentioned: it's "Survival Of The Woodchucks" (2000), and like you said it's from a Mickey Mouse Works episode.
I just finished watching it. Here is the plot in short: Donald (who wears a troop leader cap) gives HDL (wearing their JW caps) a survival test that they have to pass to earn merit badges. I don't think the cartoon implies there's no age limit, or else we should say the comics with troop leaders also imply that. By the way, how many comics address the age limit issue? I only know one: Rosa's "Guardians of the Lost Library", in which a troop leader says he suspects Scrooge surpassed the age limit around the turn of the century, implying the age limit is probably around 30-35 (Rosa's Scrooge was born in 1867).
Also, I noticed that Wikipedia's article about the JW says "On few occasions Donald Duck has taken on the role as a Troop leader". Is the cartoon "Survival Of The Woodchucks" the only instance in which Donald is portrayed as a troop leader, or are there other examples from the comics? All I know is that in comics by Barks, Rosa and other authors young Donald belonged to another scout-like organization called The Little Booneheads.
Another thing: the cartoon shows the guidebook, but in this instance it has another alternate name: Jr Woodchuck Guide.
Also, I recall a Mickey Mouse Works cartoon where Donald (!) was a Junior Woodchuck, implying there's no age limit.
I did a brief research and found the cartoon you mentioned: it's "Survival Of The Woodchucks" (2000), and like you said it's from a Mickey Mouse Works episode.
I just finished watching it. Here is the plot in short: Donald (who wears a troop leader cap) gives HDL (wearing their JW caps) a survival test that they have to pass to earn merit badges. I don't think the cartoon implies there's no age limit, or else we should say the comics with troop leaders also imply that. By the way, how many comics address the age limit issue? I only know one: Rosa's "Guardians of the Lost Library", in which a troop leader says he suspects Scrooge surpassed the age limit around the turn of the century, implying the age limit is probably around 30-35 (Rosa's Scrooge was born in 1867).
Also, I noticed that Wikipedia's article about the JW says "On few occasions Donald Duck has taken on the role as a Troop leader". Is the cartoon "Survival Of The Woodchucks" the only instance in which Donald is portrayed as a troop leader, or are there other examples from the comics? All I know is that in comics by Barks, Rosa and other authors young Donald belonged to another scout-like organization called The Little Booneheads.
Another thing: the cartoon shows the guidebook, but in this instance it has another alternate name: Jr Woodchuck Guide.
Well, what I meant about the age limit is this: we all know Donald was (briefly) a Little Boonehead, but never a Junior Woodchuck. So, the only possible way for him to have become a troop leader in the present day is for him to have enrolled while already an adult. This does, at the very least, contradict Rosa's Guardian of the Lost Library where it's mentioned one cannot become a Senior Woodchuck without having been a Junior Woodchuck first, meaning Scrooge can't just become a Woodchuck to gain access to the Guidebook.
Well, what I meant about the age limit is this: we all know Donald was (briefly) a Little Boonehead, but never a Junior Woodchuck. So, the only possible way for him to have become a troop leader in the present day is for him to have enrolled while already an adult. This does, at the very least, contradict Rosa's Guardian of the Lost Library where it's mentioned one cannot become a Senior Woodchuck without having been a Junior Woodchuck first, meaning Scrooge can't just become a Woodchuck to gain access to the Guidebook.
Ah ok, I didn't realize you were trying to fit into a single continuity this cartoon and the comics in which Donald belonged to the Little Booneheads. From your previous message, I thought that the cartoon directly said or implied there was an age limit, so after watching it I was surprised to see the there was nothing of the kind.
Of course, the JW are mainstream characters in Disney comics, while the Little Booneheads are very obscure characters, and they were even more obscure in 2000, so I am pretty sure the creators of that cartoon didn't even know what the Little Booneheads are, nor were they implying that there's not an age limit.
As always, to each his own headcanon: me, I will ignore this cartoon and assume Donald was never a JW or a Senior Woodchuck.
Last Edit: Mar 5, 2017 16:02:53 GMT by drakeborough
Well, what I meant about the age limit is this: we all know Donald was (briefly) a Little Boonehead, but never a Junior Woodchuck. So, the only possible way for him to have become a troop leader in the present day is for him to have enrolled while already an adult. This does, at the very least, contradict Rosa's Guardian of the Lost Library where it's mentioned one cannot become a Senior Woodchuck without having been a Junior Woodchuck first, meaning Scrooge can't just become a Woodchuck to gain access to the Guidebook.
Ah ok, I didn't realize you were trying to fit into a single continuity this cartoon and the comics in which Donald belonged to the Little Booneheads. From your previous message, I thought that the cartoon directly said or implied there was an age limit, so after watching it I was surprised to see the there was nothing of the kind.
Of course, the JW are mainstream characters in Disney comics, while the Little Booneheads are very obscure characters, and they were even more obscure in 2000, so I am pretty sure the creators of that cartoon didn't even know what the Little Booneheads are, nor were they implying that there is an age limit.
As always, to each his own headcanon: me, I will ignore this cartoon and assume Donald was never a JW or Senior Woodchuck, while I guess you will assume that he was (and still is?) a SW and that there is an age limit.
To be fair, I think that, even without knowing about the Booneheads, the writers should have known Donald wasn't a JW. As for my headcanon, my explanation of this cartoon is that at some point after Huey, Dewey and Louie enrolled thanks to their relation to Clinton Coot (as per Rosa), Donald figured out that he might be able to get the same preferential treatment (and thus be allowed to join in spite of the age limit) thanks to also being related to Clinton. The Woodchucks initially agreed, but Donald quickly made a fool of himself and was kicked out at some point after the cartoon.
To be fair, I think that, even without knowing about the Booneheads, the writers should have known Donald wasn't a JW. I agree with that, it's strange that the writers knew about the JW, theur caps, their guidebook, their merit badges... and yet ignore that Donald is not a troop leader in the JW (in fact, he isn't/wasn't a JW at all).
My guess is that they gave the role to Donald because the short was broadcasted as a Donald Duck cartoon, and they couldn't find a role for Donald if the troop leader role was given to a generic character.
As for my headcanon, my explanation of this cartoon is that at some point after Huey, Dewey and Louie enrolled thanks to their relation to Clinton Coot (as per Rosa), Donald figured out that he might be able to get the same preferential treatment (and thus be allowed to join in spite of the age limit) thanks to also being related to Clinton. The Woodchucks initially agreed, but Donald quickly made a fool of himself and was kicked out at some point after the cartoon.
Well, this fits your view that "everything is canon".
Like I said, to each his own headcanon. Anyway, these days it seems that less people connect to the forum, but when there are more people I hope we can find out if there are also some comics that portrayed Donald as a troop leader, or if Barks ever used the term Senior Woodchucks.
P.S. My connession is very slow today so by the time I corrected a few mistakes in my previous message you had already quoted it.
"That's Booneheads, not boneheads" - many of the stories that mentioned the Little Booneheads use some version of the bonehead joke.
In the real world, Dan Beard founded the Sons of Daniel Boone in 1905. The uniform of the boys was based on the fringed buckskin outfit of the frontiersman, and boys could earn notches and top notches for achievements in different areas. Boys were organized into groups called forts. The officers of the fort took on names of frontiersmen and had specific insignia: the local vice president was Davy Crockett and had a Coonskin Cap as an emblem. A handbook for the program wasn't published until 1909, as "Boy Pioneers: Sons of Daniel Boone". Beard merged his organization into the Boy Scouts of America when it was founded in 1910. (Wikipedia)
(Beard also helped his sister organize the Camp Fire Girls, which is probably the basis for the Chickadees in the comics.)
One last trivia: six pages before the one posted above, there is a scene in which a speaker says (again, my translation from the Italian text) "Gentlemen, we are approaching the planet Cosmo: our residence!". One nephew says "Cosmo?! It can't be found in the astronomy chapter of our guidebook!", and another nephew says "Strange: I have always thought that anything could be found in it!" This is an early use of the "not in the guidebook" gag that was made famous by Rosa in "A Letter from Home", though in the 1957 story it's just a 1-panel joke. Barks himself used the same gag in "The Many Faces of Magica De Spell" (1964), though again as a 1-panel joke.
I just check on "Many Faces...". Were do they exactly do the joke you mention? I can't find it
It's one flaw I see in "Letter from Home" - at one point HD&L sarch for a infomration in Guidbook and they can find it and they make a big deal out of it like it's impossible (one faints), YET in the same story we get another scene where one can't find information about something in the guidbook and they don't make as big of a deal. The moment would be so much more powerfull if Rosa would save it for the shocking one near the climax.
Know as Maciej Kur, Mr. M., Maik, Maiki, Pan, Pan Miluś and many other names.