This is a neat find, but I believe Barks's statement, while wildly misinterpreted, referred to the sort of outlook Barks characterized him with, as opposed to his actual age in years (Donald is obviously HDL's legal guardian, so he is major in Barks lore, unless the Duckburg legal system is even crazier than we thought). Didn't we discuss this elswhere, a while back?
Yes, we discussed it, though, honestly, I felt that the explanation that Barks was talking about Donald's mental age rather than physical age was a bit of a stretch. The actual quote from an interview with Wim Van Helden (which was posted in the same topic: featherysociety.proboards.com/thread/104/scrooge-mcducks-childhood-home?page=3 ) Barks is clearly talking about Donald's actual age. Of course, other artists can disagree if they want to, but I find it interesting that Barks and Bob Karp both saw Donald as being much younger than most people in this topic (and presumably a lot of other readers) do.
If Donald had been 17, too young for The US Army, then Duckburg's authorities wouldn't have allowed him to adopt Huey, Dewey, and Louie. But, we could assume that he was 17 when trying to get into The Army, and 21 when he adopted his nephews.
Post by TheMidgetMoose on May 14, 2019 0:58:40 GMT
On the Keno Korner thread, there's been a lot of discussion on characters' ages. Since this thread already existed, I recommended we move the conversation to here. Here are some of the relevant comments to perhaps revive discussion on this thread:
Really complicated ways indeed... UNIT dating has nothing on Rosa dating!
And general Disney comics dating. Friend, you have not truly gazed into the abyss until you have considered the various timeline issues posed by The Lentils of Babylon and fruitlessly racked your brains trying to figure out when on Earth any of these people could plausibly have been born. (Don Rosa's classic 1920 birth date for Donald works well enough; 14 is just about right for him in Wise Little Hen; but there's a great wealth of material to have he and Mickey as childhood friends, and surely he had to be older than 8 in the days of Steamboat Willie…)
And general Disney comics dating. Friend, you have not truly gazed into the abyss until you have considered the various timeline issues posed by The Lentils of Babylon and fruitlessly racked your brains trying to figure out when on Earth any of these people could plausibly have been born. (Don Rosa's classic 1920 birth date for Donald works well enough; 14 is just about right for him in Wise Little Hen; but there's a great wealth of material to have he and Mickey as childhood friends, and surely he had to be older than 8 in the days of Steamboat Willie…)
Of course, this is based on the assumption that Steamboat Willie takes place in 1928. Unless that date has been confirmed to be when the short actually occurs, I would just say to push Steamboat Willie further down the timeline. Discounting Disney Babies, Mickey could be as much as, if not more than, five years old than Donald. I've always gotten the impression that Mickey was supposed to be a few years older than Donald. See, for example, the 1934 version of Orphan's Benefit, where Donald is significantly smaller than Mickey, recites nursery rhymes, and rivals with children. Mickey, on the other hand, seems to more of an adult in the short, running the show. If you do count Disney Babies as part of the canon, then I guess the maximum age difference between Donald and Mickey goes to down to maybe a year or two, though it'd be unlikely to be that much. If that's the case, then we must just simply abandon the belief that all shorts take place when they were released and leave it at that.
Also, I once saw an interesting study that put Donald's birth year as 1914. It was on some website or blog a few years ago, and I haven't been able to find it since. Essentially, they worked off the assumption that Donald was born on March 13, as proclaimed in 1949's Donald's Happy Birthday, and that he was born on the Friday the 13th. I think they cited an old, 1940's era children's book as the source for the Friday the 13th date, as well as The Three Caballeros. They then looked for years with a Friday, March 13 that were close to 1920. They decided that 1914 made the most since. If we were adopt this year as Donald's birthday, we could still hold on to the assumption that all (or nearly all) cartoons take place when they were released. After all, it would make Donald 14 during the days of Steamboat Willie, and Mickey as much as 16 or even 19 depending on whether or not you count Disney Babies.
Of course, this is based on the assumption that Steamboat Willie takes place in 1928. Unless that date has been confirmed to be when the short actually occurs, I would just say to push Steamboat Willie further down the timeline.
Yeah, but we don't want to go down that rabbit hole. They didn't say it right there in the film, sure, but the writers of Steamboat Willie and the other 1920's shorts clearly didn't mean for the story they were making to take place in (from their perspective) the future, any more than Barks meant for his Magica stories to be throwbacks to the 1950's, and we're not going to disregard this authorial intent lightly.
1914 or so as a birth date for Mickey actually seems to work — his being about 15…ish?… in Plane Crazy and Steamboat Willie seems about right. (For Donald, though, I'm actually not convinced; 20 seems too old for the Donald of Wise Little Hen. And while you could picture Donald and Della in The Empire-Builder from Calisota as slightly older than they look, this date would make Donald 16 when he kicks Scrooge; that's clearly not right.) It's true that you could have Mickey be, say, three years older than Donald without breaking much (but five seems a bit much; there are stories where Mickey, Goofy and Donald are seen as a trio of children); though yes, if at all possible we do want to count Disney Babies.
Even messier, of course, is the issue of Pete's age. The Chirikawa Necklace depicts Pete as six or so years older than Mickey, and Trudy likewise; Disney Babies, meanwhile, shows Pete as only a year at most older than the rest of the gang. And I don't think he could have been younger than 19 in his 1927 debut without really stretching disbelief.
Yeah, but we don't want to go down that rabbit hole. They didn't say it right there in the film, sure, but the writers of Steamboat Willie and the other 1920's shorts clearly didn't mean for the story they were making to take place in (from their perspective) the future, any more than Barks meant for his Magica stories to be throwbacks to the 1950's, and we're not going to disregard this authorial intent lightly.
1914 or so as a birth date for Mickey actually seems to work — his being about 15…ish?… in Plane Crazy and Steamboat Willie seems about right. (For Donald, though, I'm actually not convinced; 20 seems too old for the Donald of Wise Little Hen. And while you could picture Donald and Della in The Empire-Builder from Calisota as slightly older than they look, this date would make Donald 16 when he kicks Scrooge; that's clearly not right.) It's true that you could have Mickey be, say, three years older than Donald without breaking much (but five seems a bit much; there are stories where Mickey, Goofy and Donald are seen as a trio of children); though yes, if at all possible we do want to count Disney Babies.
Even messier, of course, is the issue of Pete's age. The Chirikawa Necklace depicts Pete as six or so years older than Mickey, and Trudy likewise; Disney Babies, meanwhile, shows Pete as only a year at most older than the rest of the gang. And I don't think he could have been younger than 19 in his 1927 debut without really stretching disbelief.
I'd argue that the folks creating Steamboat Willie weren't really intending for it have any sort of major universe built around it. I don't really think there was supposed to be any continuity between Mickey shorts to begin with. By trying to establish continuity, are we not disregarding authorial intent? Even if the makers of Steamboat Willie did want us to find continuity, I, personally, am still willing to disregard authorial intent if it helps to make a more coherent universe. I don't like doing it, but I feel like it's necessary in a universe as vast and incoherent as the Duck Universe.
Personally, I see Donald as being born in 1919. I imagine he was actually hatched on Friday, June 13 instead of March, and that Huey, Dewey, and Louie were mistaken during the events of "Donald's Happy Birthday." Assuming Mickey was born on November 18, then, if the 1919 date, is really accurate, I think we could say that the earliest date for Mickey's birth would be November 18, 1917, which would put him at 11-years-old during Steamboat Willie, which... doesn't make perfect sense, but is a lot better than him being as young as 8.
I have no explanations for the Pete contradictions. Myself, I don't count Disney Babies, so the perceived contradiction doesn't bother me too much, though I can see why it would be bothersome for one that views all things Mouse and Duck as being in the same universe.
And general Disney comics dating. Friend, you have not truly gazed into the abyss until you have considered the various timeline issues posed by The Lentils of Babylon and fruitlessly racked your brains trying to figure out when on Earth any of these people could plausibly have been born. (Don Rosa's classic 1920 birth date for Donald works well enough; 14 is just about right for him in Wise Little Hen; but there's a great wealth of material to have he and Mickey as childhood friends, and surely he had to be older than 8 in the days of Steamboat Willie…)
That's thankfully beyond the purview of this series, but I have given it some thought in my fanfiction spinoffs. The poetic answer that I came up with is that when characters are immortalized (as in, famous the world over), they stop aging. They don't start out in a floating timeline, but are slowly encased into one. This way, you have their maturation during the 1930s-40s, while still being able to use them in today's world (or the future, as some stories suggest).
I remember reading in the Gottfredson library that there's a subtle hint Mickey and Minnie are 17 years old in Death Valley, but I can't figure out where. That feels about right: I'd say Mickey is about 13 or 14 in Steamboat Willie, which would put his birth around 1914-15. He grows up in his mid-twenties (the late 30s), before settling down with Morty and Ferdie as the middle-aged fully-dressed Mickey we know from the late 1940s. By the way, Steamboat Willie is set along the Mississippi river, not far from Marceline, Moussouri. (Yes, I'm running with that.) I'd say Donald is a little younger, but he also debuts six years later. In about 1937-38, he makes the jump from being a school kid to playing the part of the adult, so yeah 1920 seems as good a date as any. (I know it was less common to go to high school in the '30s, but you've got to give him some leeway --- and this is backed up by 1959's This is Your Life, Donald Duck of all things.) It's Goofy's age that's the worst of all, seeing how he starts out as elderly Dippy Dawg in 1932. Is he... older than Mickey or Donald? Younger? Inbetween? It's hard to tell.
I'm not totally on board with Rosa's ideas about Scrooge's birth date either, but I admit he had an impossible task when Barks just casually handed out "I did so-and-so seventy years ago" along with "the Klondike, forty years ago". (Seriously, did Back to the Klondike really take place in 1938?) In my own stories, a contemporary of Scrooge was born in 1877, which is something I'd be more on board with. Of course, I want to include more artists, so I'm allowed to ignore more Barksian "facts" than Rosa. Right?
I'd say Donald is a little younger, but he also debuts six years later. In about 1937-38, he makes the jump from being a school kid to playing the part of the adult, so yeah 1920 seems as good a date as any. (I know it was less common to go to high school in the '30s, but you've got to give him some leeway --- and this is backed up by 1959's This is Your Life, Donald Duck of all things.) It's Goofy's age that's the worst of all, seeing how he starts out as elderly Dippy Dawg in 1932. Is he... older than Mickey or Donald? Younger? Inbetween? It's hard to tell.
Question: Should this discussion be moved to another thread, such as this one? You're absolutely right about This is Your Life, Donald Duck. I believe the animated version states that Donald finished college right before Donald Gets Drafted, which takes place in March 1941 as per the date on Donald's draft card. That would mean Donald was likely born sometime between 1918 and 1922.
As for Goofy, even though he does seem old in his debut, there's nothing concrete to state that he is. Maybe he's just a teenager who grew out a beard and put on his dad's specs. Maybe he's actually acting, and his laughing gag is part of the show. Maybe that's actually not Goofy, but his father, as is supported by House of Mouse.
There were a few others that continued the discussion a little ways, but maybe this will be enough to start conversation! I'll make a separate post that further details my personal headcanon.
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Post by TheMidgetMoose on May 14, 2019 1:22:59 GMT
To explain characters' ages in my headcanon, I feel I first need to describe my headcanon. The truth is that I have several headcanons. In my mind, there are several different universes in which a figure called Donald Duck exists. There are four primary universes that I care the most about and believe the largest amount of stories takes place in, and of those, only two have I put a lot of thought into about characters' ages (in one of them, it's almost entirely irrelevant). The one I'll focus on for the purposes of this thread is the one that is based upon Rosa, Barks, Gottfredson, Taliaferro, and the classic shorts. I try to include nearly every comic I can into it, but that's an impossibility since many comics show modern technology while the characters are still young, and I believe the characters (at least in this universe) age like normal humans.
Also, for me, there's no specific "present-day." Some stories are set in the 30's, others are set in the 50's. It all depends on who the author is as well as who the main characters of the story are and how they characterized. For me, pinning down exact ages is hard, because I believe their age can vary vastly story by story. Instead, I'll give the ages of these characters in relation to Donald. If Donald is 30 in a given story, then all characters above Donald are 30 + however many years older they are, and all characters younger than Donald are 30 - however many years younger they are. Also, I view Donald as having been born in 1919.
Without further ado, my headcanon:
92 years older than Donald - Blackheart "Grandpa" Beagle
65 years older than Donald - Grandma Duck
52 years older than Donald - Scrooge McDuck, Flintheart Glomgold
49 years older than Donald - Belle Duck
48 years older than Donald - Matilda McDuck
44 years older than Donald - Quackmore Duck, Ludwig von Drake
43 years older than Donald - Hortense McDuck, Sylvester Shyster (Scrooge's attorney)
39 years older than Donald - John D. Rockerduck
33 years older than Donald - Daphne Duck, Goosetave Gander, Mortimer Mouse (Minnie's uncle)
32 years older than Donald - Eider Duck
35-28 years older than Donald - Fulton Gearloose
28 years older than Donald - Lulubelle Loon, Emily Quackfaster
25 years older than Donald - Horace Horsecollar, Sylvester Shyster (the Mickey villain)
24 years older than Donald - Clarabelle Cow
7 years older than Donald - Mortimer Mouse (Mickey's rival)
5 years older than Donald - Goofy, Mickey Mouse, Minnie Mouse
Same as Donald - Daisy Duck, Panchito Pistoles, Gladstone Gander, Donna Duck, Della Duck
2 years younger than Donald - Magica DeSpell, Gyro Gearloose
4 years younger than Donald - Gus Goose
7 years younger than Donald - Whitewater Duck
9 years younger than Donald - Fethry Duck
11 years younger than Donald - Pluto the Pup
21 years younger than Donald - Huey, Dewey, and Louie
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5 years older than Donald - Goofy, Mickey Mouse, Minnie Mouse
I'm curious about why specifically 1919? Also, I find it weird that Clarabelle would be 19 years older than Goofy, especially since they were dating for a while.
5 years older than Donald - Goofy, Mickey Mouse, Minnie Mouse
I'm curious about why specifically 1919? Also, I find it weird that Clarabelle would be 19 years older than Goofy, especially since they were dating for a while.
1919 was based on the two separate birthdays I know for Donald. One is March 13, as shown the animated short Donald's Happy Birthday, the other is June 9, which is used in Rosa's The Duck Who Never Was. I wanted to have Donald's Happy Birthday and The Duck Who Never Was in the same universe. I also wanted the original The Three Caballeros in the same universe, and that states that Donald's birthday was on Friday the 13th. I decided to go with the idea that Donald was actually born on Friday the 13th and use that to find his birthday. Essentially, what I decided is that Donald's egg was laid on June 9, and he hatched on Friday, June 13. The reason Donald's Happy Birthday says he was born in March instead of June is because, in my headcanon, it takes place early on when Huey, Dewey, and Louie have just recently started living with Donald, and they mistakenly thought his birthday was in March. The year closest to 1920, the year Rosa believes Donald was born, with a Friday, June 13, is 1919.
As for Clarabelle and Goofy, I'd be willing on to compromise on that. My impression from the early Mickey Mouse strips, such as The Ransom Plot, is that Clarabelle and Horace are quite a bit older than Mickey. I've also always gotten the impression that Goofy was close in age to Mickey and Donald. While I wouldn't want to push Goofy too far away from Donald on the timeline, I'd be willing to maybe push him back a couple of years. Of course, that doesn't really change the fact that it would still have Clarabelle and Goofy be over a decade a part.
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Wait, so you consider Huey Dewey and Louie to have been born in 1940? I mean this one's difficult regardless --- even Rosa struggled there. If you ignore the idea that Donald and Della are twins (which, honestly, can we not for once?) and Della is the elder twin, you could have her in her early twenties when the triplets are born. If Donald is born c. 1919-1920, and the kids are about 3 or 4 years old in 1937 (sounds right?) so they were born in 1933, that would make her about seven years older than her brother. I'd be okay with that, Donald seems a bit like the spoiled younger sibling kind of type in his '30s incarnation.
Wait, so you consider Huey Dewey and Louie to have been born in 1940? I mean this one's difficult regardless --- even Rosa struggled there. If you ignore the idea that Donald and Della are twins (which, honestly, can we not for once?) and Della is the elder twin, you could have her in her early twenties when the triplets are born. If Donald is born c. 1919-1920, and the kids are about 3 or 4 years old in 1937 (sounds right?) so they were born in 1933, that would make her about seven years older than her brother. I'd be okay with that, Donald seems a bit like the spoiled younger sibling kind of type in his '30s incarnation.
I'm not sure who your post was directed to, but I do see Huey, Dewey, and Louie as having been born in 1940. I also see Donald and Della as being twins. I understand some of the problems with this, such as HDL appearing before 1940 and the youthfulness of Donald in early works with HDL, but they don't bother me enough to make me want to either place HDL's birth before 1940 or un-twin Donald and Della.
No matter what I say or do, know that Jesus loves you.
Post by Monkey_Feyerabend on Jun 10, 2019 18:31:47 GMT
Are you sure that Horace and Clarabelle are 20+ years older than Mickey? So at age 35 Horace used to hang out with a 15 years old kid? And in current comics Horace would be a man in his 50's? I feel like they should not have more than eight/nine of difference...
Post by Dr Ivo G Bombastus on Jun 10, 2019 21:46:05 GMT
In The Gypsies we see Clarabelle wearing her Miss Cloverdale 1908 bathing suit. On the one hand the bathing suit looks like something a little kid would wear; on the other hand it somehow still fits her. So how old was she when she won the Miss Cloverdale pageant? Given that other options would make Clarabelle egregiously old compared to the rest of the cast, the most sensible age she got the sash is 13. That would mean Clarabelle was born in 1895. Horace of course is about the same age as her. This agrees with early strips treating them as being a generation older than Mickey and Minnie, with Clarabelle being a friend of Minnie's mother and Horace frequently addressing Mickey as "son".
Similarly, Pete's shortlived romance with Clarabelle in The Bare-None Ranch would indicate that Pete's around the same age as her and Horace. Treasure Island was from 1932, and that story had Peg-Leg Pete old enough to do a man's job on board the Pot Luck fifteen years earlier when he marooned Captain Churchmouse.
Very plausible dates, I would say, which come fairly close to my own leanings. I do wonder, though, how you arrived at the 1905 date for Mortimer and the 1906 date for Goofy. Any particular reason? Also, which Mortimer is being referred to here? I assume you are referring to Mickey's rival.
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Are you sure that Horace and Clarabelle are 20+ years older than Mickey? So at age 35 Horace used to hang out with a 15 years old kid? And in current comics Horace would be a man in his 50's? I feel like they should not have more than eight/nine of difference...
I don't really have much more information than what Dr Ivo G Bombastus has already given on the topic, but yes, the early strips did seem to indicate that Horace and Clarabelle were a generation above Mickey and Minnie. Another moment from The Ransom Plot indicates this, as the Gypsy queen asks Clarabelle if Minnie is her daughter, indicating that Clarabelle looks to be a generation older than Mickey. I also remember an early-30's era strip that had Clarabelle kiss Mickey in a non-romantic manner, to which he responded something along the lines of, "Gosh, I've never been kissed by a woman before!", yet again indicating some sort of age difference between the two.
That said, I feel like in later years the age gap between them has been blurred. I'm pretty darn sure Disney Babies has shown Horace and Clarabelle as being Mickey and Minnie's babyhood playmates at some point. Of course, I know that most folks here probably don't put too much stock into Disney Babies, but it is what it is.
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Very plausible dates, I would say, which come fairly close to my own leanings. I do wonder, though, how you arrived at the 1905 date for Mortimer and the 1906 date for Goofy. Any particular reason? Also, which Mortimer is being referred to here? I assume you are referring to Mickey's rival.
It's a similar deal to Clarabelle and Horace, where Goofy appeared much older than Mickey in his earliest cartoon and comic strip appearances compared to later on, plus him having relationships with Clarabelle and other older woman from time to time. I would assume there was a similar age gap between them as the gap between Mickey and Donald.
It did come up occasionally later, like in The Black Crow Mystery where they try to join the army and Mickey is disqualified for being too young (even though we should think he was 34 at the time...) while Goofy is disqualified for being too out of shape, implying characters in-story see Mickey as younger than Goofy.
Yes Mortimer is the rival character. All the versions of the rival (Mr. Slicker, Montmorency) are essentially the same, so I'd take it they're all the same age- if we don't treat them as one composite character. Mr. Slicker of course is a lot older than Minnie (who was 16 in that story), being an independent adult and trying to pressure her dad into being in his debt. Montmorency meanwhile tends to call Mickey things like "Little Boy Blue", "Little Rollo", etc, suggesting he's a bit older than Mickey. And, same as Goofy, Clarabelle is attracted to him/them. I'd assume between the two of them that Goofy would be the younger one, so that's how I arrived at those dates.
Casey was an easy one: ten years older than Mickey, a generation younger than O'Hara.
If I had to guess Uncle Mortimer and Minnie's parents' ages, I'd assume they were born around 1885.
It's a similar deal to Clarabelle and Horace, where Goofy appeared much older than Mickey in his earliest cartoon and comic strip appearances compared to later on, plus him having relationships with Clarabelle and other older woman from time to time. I would assume there was a similar age gap between them as the gap between Mickey and Donald.
It did come up occasionally later, like in The Black Crow Mystery where they try to join the army and Mickey is disqualified for being too young (even though we should think he was 34 at the time...) while Goofy is disqualified for being too out of shape, implying characters in-story see Mickey as younger than Goofy.
Yes Mortimer is the rival character. All the versions of the rival (Mr. Slicker, Montmorency) are essentially the same, so I'd take it they're all the same age- if we don't treat them as one composite character. Mr. Slicker of course is a lot older than Minnie (who was 16 in that story), being an independent adult and trying to pressure her dad into being in his debt. Montmorency meanwhile tends to call Mickey things like "Little Boy Blue", "Little Rollo", etc, suggesting he's a bit older than Mickey. And, same as Goofy, Clarabelle is attracted to him/them. I'd assume between the two of them that Goofy would be the younger one, so that's how I arrived at those dates.
That all makes enough sense. I personally would put quite as big of a gap between Goofy/Mortimer and Mickey/Minnie, but your reasons make sense and certainly serve as evidence that the former pair are older than the latter pair. I guess how much older is the big question.
No matter what I say or do, know that Jesus loves you.
In Young Donald Duck: Donald and Della are 12 Goofy is 13 or 14 Daisy is 13 Mickey is 12 Minnie is 12 Trudy is 13 Louis is 12 Millicent is 12 Tom is 12 Betty Lou is 12 Fethry is 11 Gladstone is 13 Fenton is 13 Bum Bum Ghigno is possibly 12
