The "ultimate" Duck family tree

[sim]

May 31, 2024 10:53:13 GMT LP said:

Lately I've been thinking a bit about Rosa's 1993 family tree, the one that started it all. A thought struck me: Prior to Rosa's tree, was there any story actually confirming that Donald got the surname "Duck" from his father?

Donald tells us in Barks' Race to the South Seas that his mother was a McDuck. According to The Hunting Instinct (the Walt Disney's Wonderful World of Color episode), Donald's father was a Von Drake (or just Drake). And in WDC 121 we learn that Grandma Duck's maiden name was Duck. 
Then there is apparently some animated program from the 1950s wherein Donald is said to have taken his mother's maiden name rather than his father's surname. Obviously, this clashes with everything above, but at least there is precedence for Donald's surname not coming from his father.

So maybe Rosa was wrong to assume Donald's father was a "Duck". I know Rosa only took stories by Barks into account, but if one were to aim for compatibility with every published material before 1993, it would seem like the name "Duck" originated with Donald's Grandma rather than his father. Obviously, Donald has had numerous cousins named Duck over the years, but these could all have descended from one of Grandma's siblings. Also, in this scenario, Grandma Duck would be the mother of either Scrooge or Ludwig.

This was only a random thought that struck me. I in no way intend for this to have any impact on our ultimate family tree project.

I guess he kind of took it for granted that the father should be named Duck being the mother a McDuck. However, the name Quackmore Duck for Don's father is also present in Barks' own tree.

[mkr]

In S 69141, we have the Loch Ness monster, who has decided to move in with his rather distant cousins (to the 60th degree). And yes, that's relevant for this tree, because those cousins are Madam Mim and Magica De Spell. Scan here.

So, that would of course also imply that we need to add Magica (and all her relatives) to the tree as well... 

[alquackskey]

Jun 9, 2024 16:52:56 GMT mkr said:

In S 69141, we have the Loch Ness monster, who has decided to move in with his rather distant cousins (to the 60th degree). And yes, that's relevant for this tree, because those cousins are Madam Mim and Magica De Spell. Scan here.

So, that would of course also imply that we need to add Magica (and all her relatives) to the tree as well... 

YES!
Personally, I love this - ridiculous as it may be, it makes the tree that much bigger! Who'd have thought the connection between them would be through the Loch Ness Monster, of all characters 

Though this does beg a further question - how do we interpret the Loch Ness Monster?
The creature has been used in many stories - do we composite all of them together, or do we just assume there are loads of them?

[alquackskey]

If we do count Nessie's many forms, I'd note the following:

Appears in D 10094 (Not named, but is in the Loch Ness and referred to as a monster. This is the Brazilian version, not sure how it's specified in others.)
May appear in D 2004-265 (A professor photographs it, but Mickey doesn't believe it to be the real deal)
Appears in D 95068 - is female in this version.
Appears in F JM 98201. Have only seen the first page, not sure if any other relevant information is present.
Appears in H 2019-469. Possibly a relative appears - no relation is specified but it looks like his son to me.
Appears in HC DD2022-29Z - I can't read what's being said, so I don't know if anyone else is mentioned.
Appears in HD 2021-060.
Appears in HD 2022-079.
Appears in HD 2022-187 (I believe, not entirely sure - I believe the series of these might have some fakes.)
Appears in HD 2023-044 (Again, not 100% sure if it's specifically Nessie)
Appears in I TL 2591-7 (I only skimmed the Brazilian version - he appears in the final panel after they think he's not real.)
Appears in W WDC 237-01.
Appears in Donald and the Loch Ness Monster: An Adventure in Scotland. Specifically in the fact file at the back, with a note that no one knows if it really exists.
Appears in D 93545.

Supposedly appears in, though I can't confirm:
D 2015-256
D 91264 (He supposedly has at least a girlfriend in this one)

May be relevant:
H 84128 (Nessie appears - not sure if Chip n' Dale comics count)
HC EDS2018-05A (Referred to and seen in shadows. Don't know if the article notes anything of relevance.)
HD 2024-049
HD 2024-163
HD 2024-181 (These three have no known publications. Whether or not they feature Nessie is unknown, as not all in this series shows him.)
I TL 1965-A (I haven't read the story, but it may feature 'Bob Ness', rather than the actual Loch Ness. Could still be relevant though.)
I TL 2311-02 (The monster appears, but the original Italian has it in the 'Lock Ness'. Most translations change it to Loch, but dunno if this one counts.)
S 76013 (Pretty sure that a mention of Nessie kickstarts the plot but he doesn't appear. Noting this in case there's more I'm not aware of.)
W MM 152-02 (A dragon is stated to be the monster. I'd call it a misunderstanding in context, though.)
B 910167 (Features 'Nessie the Sea Monster', but I don't know if it's actually the Loch Ness Monster)

EDIT: I read the English version of D 93260. Notably (Assuming translator is correct) the Finnish version supposedly takes place in the 7th century, while the English version takes place in the 13th. I don't know which is more accurate.
Basically, Donald and Scrooge are in Scotland, and Donald causes them to crash. Scrooge tells him to head to Eden castle, but be careful of the fog.
The fog, of course, transports Donald back to the 13th century, where he meets some members of the Clan McMordred.
They attack, and Donald runs - he eventually meets Eden McPatrick, the chief of the Clan McPatrick.
Eden introduces Donald to his wife, Susan, as well as their two unnamed daughters.
Background members of the Clan can be seen as well.

Finally, the relevant one here - Donald is introduced to Nessbeth, the druid of the clan.
Nessbeth shows off his transformation abilities to Donald, and eventually there's a fight with the Clan McMordred for land.
Nessbeth turns into a sea monster and scares them away, so the Clan McPatrick can settle their castle where it needs to be.
Eden names the lake 'Loch Ness' in honour of Nessbeth.
Nessbeth decides that he likes his new form, and decides he'll stay that way for a few thousand years.

Relevant scans here.

EDIT 2: More relevant points:
There are two Nessie's in the Ducktales '17 universe, however that might be handled: Seen in 30 Things With Webby
I TL 3250-5 has another appearance in a literary parody. Since we've included a few others, this one may be relevant - though it has an entirely different backstory for Nessie, so might be better ignored.

[mkr]

Jun 9, 2024 18:36:50 GMT alquackskey said:

Though this does beg a further question - how do we interpret the Loch Ness Monster?
The creature has been used in many stories - do we composite all of them together, or do we just assume there are loads of them?

I am not sure that we really should composite all these Loch Ness Monster appearances. To me it's a bit of a similar situation as for example Medusa or the Greek gods: a mythological being that is interpreted in various ways in different stories and for which we chose not to composite them. The situation with the Loch Ness Monster feels similar to me. I didn't check yet all stories you mention in your other post, but from the ones I know, each story just has its own interpretation of the monster. It's not really a single character, I think. The fact that it is sometimes male and sometimes female, supports that. Also, since there are stories in which there are multiple monsters swimming in the lake, we cannot conclude that there is only one.

As a side note, one of the ancestors of Magica is Circe. I think we should also not merge all of Circe's appearances.

[alquackskey]

Jun 10, 2024 9:20:58 GMT mkr said:

Jun 9, 2024 18:36:50 GMT alquackskey said:

Though this does beg a further question - how do we interpret the Loch Ness Monster?
The creature has been used in many stories - do we composite all of them together, or do we just assume there are loads of them?

I am not sure that we really should composite all these Loch Ness Monster appearances. To me it's a bit of a similar situation as for example Medusa or the Greek gods: a mythological being that is interpreted in various ways in different stories and for which we chose not to composite them. The situation with the Loch Ness Monster feels similar to me. I didn't check yet all stories you mention in your other post, but from the ones I know, each story just has its own interpretation of the monster. It's not really a single character, I think. The fact that it is sometimes male and sometimes female, supports that. Also, since there are stories in which there are multiple monsters swimming in the lake, we cannot conclude that there is only one.

As a side note, one of the ancestors of Magica is Circe. I think we should also not merge all of Circe's appearances.

That's reasonable - it's always more difficult when factoring in such characters.
In fairness, most of the above don't really add anything of note anyway; they'd just be different versions. As was pointed out, it's a bit odd, but there do seem to be multiple of them anyway.

I'll note that I've read the Brazilian version, and it has some interesting changes worth noting:
For one, it's not actually noted as Nessie - it's 'Marina the Sea Serpent'. I'd believe this was just a translation change, though, as the reasons for leaving are that 'I've become a tourist attraction, and people always come to the beach to take photos of me!'
In the Brazilian version, the relation is also different - if I'm reading it right, 12th cousins. The rest are extinct.
I think it's worth trying to see a few other versions if possible to see what the relation is in those; I've reached out to someone with the French version, so hopefully I hear back soon. I'm fine sticking with 60th cousins for the minute, though

While I'm fine ignoring most of the Nessie appearances, but there's one I'd like to argue in favour of, D 93260 - the evidence is circumstantial, but I think worth considering.
For one, it would make much more sense of the actual relation - rather than just inherently being a sea serpent and carrying all of the questions that'd bring, we would have a druid who is originally a dognose. Bonus points for that also being a bit more coherent in how he'd be related to both Mim and Magica; the link between the two being a shape-shifting, clairvoyant druid would make things more cohesive.
For two, it would also give a logical explanation as to why he visits them - he claims that the rest of his relatives are extinct. Obviously, this can't be the case, but we could infer that he's referring to the Clan McPatrick - they all seem to have died out by the present day in-story, which would track with his comment.
It's also worth noting that this one fits in ways that many of the others don't; Barks' version, as well as a few others, are incapable of speech because they're sea monsters. This gives a reason for him being able to talk, as he wasn't born a monster and took the form of one through magic.
Final major point - it would make sense that this one is the Loch Ness Monster. We know of all the different ones that seem to be in there, but this one was the original, and the one for whom the Loch was named.
It would also fill in a lot of coherence gaps - I know those are to be expected, but being able to fill them in is always nice.
I know it's not something that has too much factual basis, but it fills in a lot of gaps that come with the question of him somehow being related to them.

Regarding Circe, as well as the other relevant figures, I agree - it may be worth revisiting them at some point, but for now, I'm content to leave them unless there's a strong case to be made

[Ramapith]

Jun 9, 2024 16:52:56 GMT mkr said:

In S 69141, we have the Loch Ness monster, who has decided to move in with his rather distant cousins (to the 60th degree). And yes, that's relevant for this tree, because those cousins are Madam Mim and Magica De Spell. Scan here.

So, that would of course also imply that we need to add Magica (and all her relatives) to the tree as well... 

I've accessed the original English version of this story.

In it, "Nessie the sea serpent" is a female, and she describes Magica and Mim as "67th cousins twice removed, and my next of kin... all the rest are extinct."

Take this for what you will—including the fact that it suggests Magica and Mim are very closely related to each other.

In the English-speaking (and, obviously, Scottish) tradition, Nessie is quite often portrayed as female, if not 100% of the time. It may have to do with her name, Nessie, being a corruption of the female name Bessie.

So, I think, the monster really ought to be female in its "definitive" version on the Tree.

[alquackskey]

Jun 10, 2024 19:53:07 GMT Ramapith said:

Jun 9, 2024 16:52:56 GMT mkr said:

In S 69141, we have the Loch Ness monster, who has decided to move in with his rather distant cousins (to the 60th degree). And yes, that's relevant for this tree, because those cousins are Madam Mim and Magica De Spell. Scan here.

So, that would of course also imply that we need to add Magica (and all her relatives) to the tree as well... 

I've accessed the original English version of this story.

In it, "Nessie the sea serpent" is a female, and she describes Magica and Mim as "67th cousins twice removed, and my next of kin... all the rest are extinct."

Take this for what you will—including the fact that it suggests Magica and Mim are very closely related to each other.

In the English-speaking (and, obviously, Scottish) tradition, Nessie is quite often portrayed as female, if not 100% of the time. It may have to do with her name, Nessie, being a corruption of the female name Bessie.

So, I think, the monster really ought to be female in its "definitive" version on the Tree.

Thank you for this!
The translations seem to have changed the degree of relation significantly, so having the original is a massive help

That's an interesting point - I'm not great with the logic of genealogy when it gets that far down. There's the interpretation of them being very closely related, but could it also be the case that this gives the two a massive degree of separation? If we assume the former, it does bring up a lot of questions regarding the timeline, what with Mim's period of origin.

As for Nessie being female... I guess that scuppers my Nessbeth theory. Unless we roll with the idea of Nessbeth being genderfluid or trans, or able to change the relevant factors. As much as I want to hold on to the idea, I can accept that it may be too much of a stretch to composite Nessbeth and Nessie.

[mkr]

Jun 10, 2024 14:06:39 GMT alquackskey said:

Regarding Circe, as well as the other relevant figures, I agree - it may be worth revisiting them at some point, but for now, I'm content to leave them unless there's a strong case to be made

Circe as an ancestor is actually not fully confirmed. It comes from B MAN 6-TI (scan here), but it just says that Magica considers herself to be a descendant of Circe. So, it doesn't necessarily have to be true. Anyway, if we accept it, the article also gives some information on Circe in Greek mythology, mentioning her husband and parents (though it gives multiple names for who these parents could be).

Jun 10, 2024 20:55:38 GMT alquackskey said:

Jun 10, 2024 19:53:07 GMT Ramapith said:

I've accessed the original English version of this story.

In it, "Nessie the sea serpent" is a female, and she describes Magica and Mim as "67th cousins twice removed, and my next of kin... all the rest are extinct."

Take this for what you will—including the fact that it suggests Magica and Mim are very closely related to each other.

In the English-speaking (and, obviously, Scottish) tradition, Nessie is quite often portrayed as female, if not 100% of the time. It may have to do with her name, Nessie, being a corruption of the female name Bessie.

So, I think, the monster really ought to be female in its "definitive" version on the Tree.

Thank you for this!
The translations seem to have changed the degree of relation significantly, so having the original is a massive help

That's an interesting point - I'm not great with the logic of genealogy when it gets that far down. There's the interpretation of them being very closely related, but could it also be the case that this gives the two a massive degree of separation? If we assume the former, it does bring up a lot of questions regarding the timeline, what with Mim's period of origin.

As for Nessie being female... I guess that scuppers my Nessbeth theory. Unless we roll with the idea of Nessbeth being genderfluid or trans, or able to change the relevant factors. As much as I want to hold on to the idea, I can accept that it may be too much of a stretch to composite Nessbeth and Nessie.

Yes, I think it can still mean that Mim and Magica are very distantly related to eachother, as it could be for example that Magica is a "67th cousin twice removed" via Nessie's father's side, while Mim is a "67th cousin twice removed" via Nessie's mother's side. It would all be very coincidental that these numbers for degrees of separation would be exactly the same (and that all closer related kin is really deceased), but it is technically possible, I guess...

The timeline is indeed a big issue here. Most logically one would probably put Magica in Donald's or Scrooge's generation. Following for example D 2019-160. But we also have B 870072, in which Mim and Magica are both seen as a child. I think the only way you can make it "logically" work is to assume time travel (which is of course possible because of magic). And once you accept that it probably doesn't really matter anymore in which time period Magica and Mim are positioned in the tree...

[Ramapith]

Jun 10, 2024 21:25:45 GMT mkr said:

I have to say—I default to Barks' view that Magica is a young, attractive character presumably Donald's age or thereabouts. It feels important, in part because some major voices actively get it very wrong (interpreting her as an old lady, having Scrooge call her "crone" or "hag," etc.)

Magica is a character whose lore it's easy to screw up, making it seem more important to get her right even in a project as fannish as this Tree!

[alquackskey]

Jun 10, 2024 21:25:45 GMT mkr said:

Jun 10, 2024 14:06:39 GMT alquackskey said:

Regarding Circe, as well as the other relevant figures, I agree - it may be worth revisiting them at some point, but for now, I'm content to leave them unless there's a strong case to be made

Circe as an ancestor is actually not fully confirmed. It comes from B MAN 6-TI (scan here), but it just says that Magica considers herself to be a descendant of Circe. So, it doesn't necessarily have to be true. Anyway, if we accept it, the article also gives some information on Circe in Greek mythology, mentioning her husband and parents (though it gives multiple names for who these parents could be).

Jun 10, 2024 20:55:38 GMT alquackskey said:

Thank you for this!
The translations seem to have changed the degree of relation significantly, so having the original is a massive help

That's an interesting point - I'm not great with the logic of genealogy when it gets that far down. There's the interpretation of them being very closely related, but could it also be the case that this gives the two a massive degree of separation? If we assume the former, it does bring up a lot of questions regarding the timeline, what with Mim's period of origin.

As for Nessie being female... I guess that scuppers my Nessbeth theory. Unless we roll with the idea of Nessbeth being genderfluid or trans, or able to change the relevant factors. As much as I want to hold on to the idea, I can accept that it may be too much of a stretch to composite Nessbeth and Nessie.

Yes, I think it can still mean that Mim and Magica are very distantly related to eachother, as it could be for example that Magica is a "67th cousin twice removed" via Nessie's father's side, while Mim is a "67th cousin twice removed" via Nessie's mother's side. It would all be very coincidental that these numbers for degrees of separation would be exactly the same (and that all closer related kin is really deceased), but it is technically possible, I guess...

The timeline is indeed a big issue here. Most logically one would probably put Magica in Donald's or Scrooge's generation. Following for example D 2019-160. But we also have B 870072, in which Mim and Magica are both seen as a child. I think the only way you can make it "logically" work is to assume time travel (which is of course possible because of magic). And once you accept that it probably doesn't really matter anymore in which time period Magica and Mim are positioned in the tree...

Interesting - I've actually been trying to find a source on the Circe thing for a while now, so thank you for that
I tracked down the manual and... yeah, it's a strange one. 
I've never heard of 'considering oneself' to be a descendant of someone. Maybe it's a turn of phrase or was just written in a way that's kind of wonky? Either way, I think the following are ways to interpret it:
1. She is a descendant of Circe, and the intention of the phrase was meant to be along the lines of 'Being a descendant of Circe is what she considers to be her greatest pride'.
2. 'Descendant' is meant in terms of being a disciple or the like, and her pride isn't in relation, but in being a worthy successor.
3. We take it literally - she doesn't have any proof, but she believes it?

Personally, my own interpretation would be that Circe is her ancestor - that's just what makes sense to me in interpreting the phrase.

Regarding the timeline, I agree with putting Magica in the present generations - it's most in-line with what we actually know of the character.
The real issue is that Mim is the one who's so fluid in all of this; she can time travel, she can change her appearance and form... in The Sword in the Stone, she can reverse her age, but she just enjoys being, in her own words, 'an ugly old creep'.

There's also the option to simply ignore some of the elements of stories - we've ignored, for example, the ones where Grandma Duck is Scrooge's sister. We haven't ignored Rosa's stories, but we've ignored the indication that he's the Last of the Clan McDuck, which would make Mani Buche and Gideon impossible to fit in.
We could just write B 870072 off as it doesn't really fit (Even if we keep the relative from it).

Still, if we must keep it, then I think assuming that Magica's aunt brought her back in time for whatever reason is the easiest solution.

[mkr]

Does anyone have information/scans of the following stories concerning Magica's relatives?

• XPW MDS 1. There seems to be an aunt Gloria here, based on the information given by INDUCKS. 

• I M 87-2. There seems to be a cousin Carmelina here, based on the information given by INDUCKS.

• I MI 40-1. Has Magica's grandmother Melia. Should she be merged with Granny De Spell or with grandmother Caraldina? Or could she maybe be a great-grandmother instead?
  

• And is there any article or something else that confirms that Amelya from I TL 2569-1 is an ancestor? She is claimed on some sites to be an ancestor. And many of the Storia e gloria look-a-likes have been confirmed to be ancestors in some article, but I don't know of any article saying that about Amelya.

[LP]

Hi. Susiebelle Swan is currently placed as the aunt of Goosetave Gander; the grand-aunt of Gladstone.
However, in The Gilded Man, Susiebelle is described as a distant relative of Gladstone, and grand-aunt is not very distant. All we know about her is that she is dead in "the present", she sent a postcard in 1856, and she named Gladstone (born circa 1920) her sole heir. So she would have been born sometime before 1850 (probably around 1830-1840) and died sometime after 1920.
I think pushing her back a generation would fit better with her being a distant relative to Gladstone. For what it's worth, in Don Rosa's sketch of his family tree he placed her as Goosetave's grandmother's unmarried sister. If we interpret this as Goosetave's maternal grandmother's sister, we won't have to worry about moving around the Badluck-ancestors on the tree.

Speaking of Gladstone's ancestors, I notice that many of their names (Haubitz, Givagt, and Granatchok) come from Picnic General. If I understand correctly, every Egmont story is originally written in English. Is there any chance that we can find out what these ancestors' original English names are?

[alquackskey]

Jun 12, 2024 16:06:29 GMT mkr said:

Does anyone have information/scans of the following stories concerning Magica's relatives?

• XPW MDS 1. There seems to be an aunt Gloria here, based on the information given by INDUCKS. 

• I M 87-2. There seems to be a cousin Carmelina here, based on the information given by INDUCKS.

• I MI 40-1. Has Magica's grandmother Melia. Should she be merged with Granny De Spell or with grandmother Caraldina? Or could she maybe be a great-grandmother instead?
  

• And is there any article or something else that confirms that Amelya from I TL 2569-1 is an ancestor? She is claimed on some sites to be an ancestor. And many of the Storia e gloria look-a-likes have been confirmed to be ancestors in some article, but I don't know of any article saying that about Amelya.

I'll look into the Minnie volumes when I get the chance - might be able to order some shortly if all goes well. Of course, if anyone has them in the meantime, excellent.

Regarding I TL 2569-1, some of the supporting articles refer to the Opera Omnia books. I'm unfortunately not home for another week, but if they haven't been gotten by then, I can scan mine and see if there's anything of value.
Otherwise, there's something that potentially helps
I have the Brazilian version of Qit/TSD 2C, which confirms her as Magica's ancestor, as seen here:

This goes against the rule about keeping things to the relevant languages, but I'll note that this is supposedly a Brazilian translation of an article from Tesori Disney 2.

Whether or not that's enough is up to you, but that's what I've got at the moment

[LP]

I've been thinking about Fethry's grandmother, who would be the wife of Gumboot Duck. In Waakhond, Donald mentions his grand-aunt Tryntsje Duckma, who gifted him a cuckoo clock heirloom. Maybe she would be a fitting candidate? Donald mentions that she is from "Kwaaksum". I assume this is a pun on a country or a city, but I can't figure out which one. Can anyone help me solve this?