The "ultimate" Duck family tree

[danoduck]

Sept 2, 2024 0:26:42 GMT alquackskey said:

Just a couple extra additions:
Potentially relevant stories:
I TL 2076-4 (Donald inherits a magic suit of armour. No idea if it's from a relative, though)

I've readen the italian version and it's said that Donald inherits the armour from a great uncle; and in the beginning of the story is showned that the first owner of the armour was a certain "Archibald Degli Avidi", so I think that we can consider him as an ancestor of this Donald's great uncle

[sim]

Sept 2, 2024 0:26:42 GMT alquackskey said:

YD 88-03-01 has Ludwig mention an ancestor of his - don't know if it's worth making a new character, but noting it all the same.

Doesn't look like it to me.

Sept 2, 2024 0:26:42 GMT alquackskey said:

Whether or not that should count for anything is debatable, but worth noting.

Clearly just a gag. As if I'd claim I would go visit some "distant cousins" and it turned out they are apes... I don't think it is worth nothing.

Sept 2, 2024 0:26:42 GMT alquackskey said:

S 65122 (Scrooge and Rockerduck are both set to inherit - can't see story so dunno if it's from a relative)

No. He's just an old wealthy friend/acquaintance.

[danoduck]

 alt="<a href="https://ibb.co/jRXTD1M"><img src="https://i.ibb.co/ZmDVxk8/duckspecie.png" alt="duckspecie" border="0"></a>" style="max-width:100%;">
I just found this image about the evolution on inducks.org/issue.php?c=it%2FTL+2818 and in this image appear Donald Duckling and Tom as the end of the evolution, so given that they are here together, it would mean that they are relatives?

[alquackskey]

Sept 2, 2024 9:09:13 GMT danoduck said:

Sept 2, 2024 0:26:42 GMT alquackskey said:

Just a couple extra additions:
Potentially relevant stories:
I TL 2076-4 (Donald inherits a magic suit of armour. No idea if it's from a relative, though)

I've readen the italian version and it's said that Donald inherits the armour from a great uncle; and in the beginning of the story is showned that the first owner of the armour was a certain "Archibald Degli Avidi", so I think that we can consider him as an ancestor of this Donald's great uncle

Interesting stuff, thank you! Do you have any scans/photos of the story?
The French description suggests that the first owner - presumably Archibald - lived in the Middle Ages. Does the story offer any suggestions or info that may help to pin his location down a bit more precisely?

Sept 2, 2024 13:23:23 GMT sim said:

Sept 2, 2024 0:26:42 GMT alquackskey said:

YD 88-03-01 has Ludwig mention an ancestor of his - don't know if it's worth making a new character, but noting it all the same.

Doesn't look like it to me.

Sept 2, 2024 0:26:42 GMT alquackskey said:

Whether or not that should count for anything is debatable, but worth noting.

Clearly just a gag. As if I'd claim I would go visit some "distant cousins" and it turned out they are apes... I don't think it is worth nothing.

Sept 2, 2024 0:26:42 GMT alquackskey said:

S 65122 (Scrooge and Rockerduck are both set to inherit - can't see story so dunno if it's from a relative)

No. He's just an old wealthy friend/acquaintance.

Dangit, figured I'd do it at least once - that first one should be YD 88-03-31.

I figured regarding the platypuses, I figured it was worth mentioning, even if only for the evolutionary element.
I may use the term 'worth noting' a little too liberally 

Thank you regarding S 65122!

Sept 3, 2024 9:58:38 GMT danoduck said:

 alt="<a href="https://ibb.co/jRXTD1M"><img src="https://i.ibb.co/ZmDVxk8/duckspecie.png" alt="duckspecie" border="0"></a>" style="max-width:100%;">
I just found this image about the evolution on inducks.org/issue.php?c=it%2FTL+2818 and in this image appear Donald Duckling and Tom as the end of the evolution, so given that they are here together, it would mean that they are relatives?

That's... an interesting question.
Do you have any further context for the image? I don't see anything on the INDUCKS issue page that relates to this specific image.

As for the image itself, I'm honestly not sure - without any context to go on, it begs some questions.
If we assume that Donald drew it, then it'd be a no-go; that'd just be him saying that Tom is primitive.

If we assume that Donald didn't draw it and that's a genuine image... it would beg many further questions.
If we treat it as a linear take on evolution, it would beg the question of how Tom even exists.
If we treat it as just steps along the way... maybe? We could assume that, at some point in the evolutionary timeline, Tom's species diverged from the path that the Paperus species was on - that would allow for them to co-exist, though where the common ancestor would be would be pretty speculative.

[danoduck]

Sept 3, 2024 11:05:11 GMT alquackskey said:

Sept 2, 2024 9:09:13 GMT danoduck said:

I've readen the italian version and it's said that Donald inherits the armour from a great uncle; and in the beginning of the story is showned that the first owner of the armour was a certain "Archibald Degli Avidi", so I think that we can consider him as an ancestor of this Donald's great uncle

Interesting stuff, thank you! Do you have any scans/photos of the story?
The French description suggests that the first owner - presumably Archibald - lived in the Middle Ages. Does the story offer any suggestions or info that may help to pin his location down a bit more precisely?

Sept 3, 2024 9:58:38 GMT danoduck said:

 alt="<a href="https://ibb.co/jRXTD1M"><img src="https://i.ibb.co/ZmDVxk8/duckspecie.png" alt="duckspecie" border="0"></a>" style="max-width:100%;">
I just found this image about the evolution on inducks.org/issue.php?c=it%2FTL+2818 and in this image appear Donald Duckling and Tom as the end of the evolution, so given that they are here together, it would mean that they are relatives?

That's... an interesting question.
Do you have any further context for the image? I don't see anything on the INDUCKS issue page that relates to this specific image.

As for the image itself, I'm honestly not sure - without any context to go on, it begs some questions.
If we assume that Donald drew it, then it'd be a no-go; that'd just be him saying that Tom is primitive.

If we assume that Donald didn't draw it and that's a genuine image... it would beg many further questions.
If we treat it as a linear take on evolution, it would beg the question of how Tom even exis
If we treat it as just steps along the way... maybe? We could assume that, at some point in the evolutionary timeline, Tom's species diverged from the path that the Paperus species was on - that would allow for them to co-exist, though where the common ancestor would be would be pretty speculative.ts.

For Archibald, the unique information about the location is given by Ludwig wich says that Archibald lived 500 years ago.

For the evolution image, it seems to be official because if we look at how Donald draws we can see a big difference with this evolution poster

[alquackskey]

Also, as a separate note, I've been having some thoughts that perhaps other users could weigh in on, as it's a fairly speculative point.

It has been discussed a few times, but I'd like to re-raise the relationship between Scrooge and Grandma Duck. In many stories, she is considered a cousin of his, while in others, she is considered a sibling. Thus far, we have opted for the former as an option, while ignoring the latter.
However, I've been thinking on it, and it might be possible to have both be true without getting into nasty territory?

This post suggests that in I TL 123-AP, Grandma lived with Scrooge during her school years.

In HC DD1994-10P, we get a note that Grandma moved from Scotland to the USA.

I PM 187-2 shows Scrooge, Grandma and Gideon as kids in Scotland.

YD 66-05-04 has Grandma talking about Scrooge and his brother as kids.

B 820168 has young Scrooge and Grandma spending Christmas together with shared relatives.

H 2018-211 supposedly shows them together as children with shared parents (I don't have the story to verify)



I'm sure that there are many more examples, but going off these... wouldn't it make sense to suggest that Grandma was adopted by Fergus and Downy during her school years?

She would have been born to her parents in the US, who raised her into her younger childhood years.

They sent her to Scotland to stay with Fergus and Downy (Along with Scrooge and Gideon), where she filled out at least her primary school years, if not further.

Because she spent those developmental years with Scrooge, they call each other 'brother and sister'.

When she finishes school to whatever degree, she returns to the US.

Now, this theory is far from airtight - H 2018-211 is the biggest kicker, as it shows baby Scrooge and Grandma's egg, which would pretty cleanly cut through this theory.
I also don't have access to many of the stories where they're siblings, or even have any kind of coherent list.
From what I understand, the relationship is rarely expanded upon beyond them just being brother and sister - of course, I could be entirely wrong about that.

I suppose the main question is what people's thoughts would be on this concept in general - that is, Fergus and Downy being considered adoptive/temporary parents or guardians to Grandma during her school years, which would allow for her and Scrooge to see each other as brother and sister while still fitting in with the broader 'canon'.

I'm open to all thoughts on this one - for or against, and any evidence for either side is appreciated!

My main line of thinking with this is that it's always felt a bit off that the idea of Scrooge and Grandma being siblings had to be ignored, despite it being a fairly prominent detail - I thought this could work as a way to allow for that without having to go into the major confusion of actually making them blood siblings.

[alquackskey]

Sept 3, 2024 12:23:31 GMT danoduck said:

Sept 3, 2024 11:05:11 GMT alquackskey said:

Interesting stuff, thank you! Do you have any scans/photos of the story?
The French description suggests that the first owner - presumably Archibald - lived in the Middle Ages. Does the story offer any suggestions or info that may help to pin his location down a bit more precisely?

That's... an interesting question.
Do you have any further context for the image? I don't see anything on the INDUCKS issue page that relates to this specific image.

As for the image itself, I'm honestly not sure - without any context to go on, it begs some questions.
If we assume that Donald drew it, then it'd be a no-go; that'd just be him saying that Tom is primitive.

If we assume that Donald didn't draw it and that's a genuine image... it would beg many further questions.
If we treat it as a linear take on evolution, it would beg the question of how Tom even exis
If we treat it as just steps along the way... maybe? We could assume that, at some point in the evolutionary timeline, Tom's species diverged from the path that the Paperus species was on - that would allow for them to co-exist, though where the common ancestor would be would be pretty speculative.ts.

For Archibald, the unique information about the location is given by Ludwig wich says that Archibald lived 500 years ago.

For the evolution image, it seems to be official because if we look at how Donald draws we can see a big difference with this evolution poster

In that case, I'll see what I can figure out, but I'm not inherently against the idea
I think the main thing would be figuring out the context and whatnot, and just how much stock should be placed on it

[danoduck]

Sept 3, 2024 12:41:09 GMT alquackskey said:

Also, as a separate note, I've been having some thoughts that perhaps other users could weigh in on, as it's a fairly speculative point.

It has been discussed a few times, but I'd like to re-raise the relationship between Scrooge and Grandma Duck. In many stories, she is considered a cousin of his, while in others, she is considered a sibling. Thus far, we have opted for the former as an option, while ignoring the latter.
However, I've been thinking on it, and it might be possible to have both be true without getting into nasty territory?

This post suggests that in I TL 123-AP, Grandma lived with Scrooge during her school years.

In HC DD1994-10P, we get a note that Grandma moved from Scotland to the USA.

I PM 187-2 shows Scrooge, Grandma and Gideon as kids in Scotland.

YD 66-05-04 has Grandma talking about Scrooge and his brother as kids.

B 820168 has young Scrooge and Grandma spending Christmas together with shared relatives.

H 2018-211 supposedly shows them together as children with shared parents (I don't have the story to verify)



I'm sure that there are many more examples, but going off these... wouldn't it make sense to suggest that Grandma was adopted by Fergus and Downy during her school years?

She would have been born to her parents in the US, who raised her into her younger childhood years.

They sent her to Scotland to stay with Fergus and Downy (Along with Scrooge and Gideon), where she filled out at least her primary school years, if not further.

Because she spent those developmental years with Scrooge, they call each other 'brother and sister'.

When she finishes school to whatever degree, she returns to the US.

Now, this theory is far from airtight - H 2018-211 is the biggest kicker, as it shows baby Scrooge and Grandma's egg, which would pretty cleanly cut through this theory.
I also don't have access to many of the stories where they're siblings, or even have any kind of coherent list.
From what I understand, the relationship is rarely expanded upon beyond them just being brother and sister - of course, I could be entirely wrong about that.

I suppose the main question is what people's thoughts would be on this concept in general - that is, Fergus and Downy being considered adoptive/temporary parents or guardians to Grandma during her school years, which would allow for her and Scrooge to see each other as brother and sister while still fitting in with the broader 'canon'.

I'm open to all thoughts on this one - for or against, and any evidence for either side is appreciated!

My main line of thinking with this is that it's always felt a bit off that the idea of Scrooge and Grandma being siblings had to be ignored, despite it being a fairly prominent detail - I thought this could work as a way to allow for that without having to go into the major confusion of actually making them blood siblings.

Another point would be that Scrooge in inducks.org/story.php?c=I+TL++906-AP says that he have a never-seen sister (grandma) living in the US

[sim]

Sept 3, 2024 12:41:09 GMT alquackskey said:

H 2018-211 supposedly shows them together as children with shared parents (I don't have the story to verify)

Well, yes, they are brother and sister in this story. I had written an article about their relationship, which you can find here. I also found more stories, that I had added in a file version of this article, cannot remember if I did update the online version.

[alquackskey]

Sept 3, 2024 14:20:16 GMT sim said:

Sept 3, 2024 12:41:09 GMT alquackskey said:

H 2018-211 supposedly shows them together as children with shared parents (I don't have the story to verify)

Well, yes, they are brother and sister in this story. I had written an article about their relationship, which you can find here. I also found more stories, that I had added in a file version of this article, cannot remember if I did update the online version.

Ah, excellent stuff! 
Going off some of the examples seen in your post, it does seem like a large number of the instances of them being siblings is down to wording - as in, they call each other 'brother' and 'sister', but it often doesn't go beyond that. Even in examples that do, many of them have them living together as children without clarification.
Some examples are, of course, more of a stretch than others - I looked back over B 820168, which features Scrooge referring to Donaldo as his uncle. Interestingly, though, that's the only direct mention of relation - in theory, there's nothing that suggests Scrooge can't be visiting for Christmas. Very interestingly, though, we get these lines:
"É o Donaldo! E vem trazendo um garoto com ele!" - "It's Donaldo! And he's bringing a boy with him!"
"Ora... o garoto é o Patinhas!" - "Well... the boy is Scrooge!"
Maybe I'm biased at this point, but that's a really strange way of phrasing it if it's your own brother. However, if it's your 'adoptive' brother that's just visiting, it lines up more neatly.

The largest sticking points are HC DD1994-10P, which is a direct contradiction, and H 2018-211, which doesn't absolutely contradict it, but needs to be stretched to fit the theory.

It's undoubted that some stories are going to be ignored - it happens a fair deal in this tree since some stories are just largely incompatible.
However, I think that if we ignore the major sticking points, this theory could still offer a fair justification for the Grandma and Scrooge sibling relationship in the current setting.

Using the examples of this blog post, though, I do think the theory can work - many of the examples given are just mentions of them being siblings, without clear indication as to parentage or the like.

I'd like to hear what other people think of this solution, though - I wouldn't want to be pushing things that people weren't comfortable with, but I think it's a good way to recognize the sibling relationship without shaking things up too much.

[sim]

Sept 3, 2024 17:31:35 GMT alquackskey said:

Sept 3, 2024 14:20:16 GMT sim said:

Well, yes, they are brother and sister in this story. I had written an article about their relationship, which you can find here. I also found more stories, that I had added in a file version of this article, cannot remember if I did update the online version.

Ah, excellent stuff! 
Going off some of the examples seen in your post, it does seem like a large number of the instances of them being siblings is down to wording - as in, they call each other 'brother' and 'sister', but it often doesn't go beyond that. Even in examples that do, many of them have them living together as children without clarification.
Some examples are, of course, more of a stretch than others - I looked back over B 820168, which features Scrooge referring to Donaldo as his uncle. Interestingly, though, that's the only direct mention of relation - in theory, there's nothing that suggests Scrooge can't be visiting for Christmas. Very interestingly, though, we get these lines:
"É o Donaldo! E vem trazendo um garoto com ele!" - "It's Donaldo! And he's bringing a boy with him!"
"Ora... o garoto é o Patinhas!" - "Well... the boy is Scrooge!"
Maybe I'm biased at this point, but that's a really strange way of phrasing it if it's your own brother. However, if it's your 'adoptive' brother that's just visiting, it lines up more neatly.

The largest sticking points are HC DD1994-10P, which is a direct contradiction, and H 2018-211, which doesn't absolutely contradict it, but needs to be stretched to fit the theory.

It's undoubted that some stories are going to be ignored - it happens a fair deal in this tree since some stories are just largely incompatible.
However, I think that if we ignore the major sticking points, this theory could still offer a fair justification for the Grandma and Scrooge sibling relationship in the current setting.

Using the examples of this blog post, though, I do think the theory can work - many of the examples given are just mentions of them being siblings, without clear indication as to parentage or the like.

I'd like to hear what other people think of this solution, though - I wouldn't want to be pushing things that people weren't comfortable with, but I think it's a good way to recognize the sibling relationship without shaking things up too much.

I am seeing that the shared relatives are not mentioned in the post I linked, but in this one: 


Proseguendo con le ricerche, è inevitabile tornare ancora una volta sull'argomento Nonna Papera. Sempre in Olanda infatti, prima nel 1991 e poi nel 1994, viene pubblicata un'illustrazione che raffigura una giovane Elvira assieme a Paperone e ai loro genitori. Questa relazione, che è oggi ormai largamente smentita, era invece molto in voga in passato nella produzione europea (basti pensare a storie come questa di Martina o questa di Rota, o ancora questa, in cui i due ricordano anche un comune zio Gustavo) e anche nelle storie prodotte dallo Studio Disney per i mercati esteri; si pensi a titoli come il già citato Nonna Papera e i bei tempi andati (Nofziger/Diaz Studio, 1983), in cui vediamo i due da piccoli mentre ballano con i genitori, oppure Nonna Papera e la guerra di confine (?/Strobl, 1987), dove i due, cresciuti assieme, condividono anche un prozio, chiamato Paperonzo nella versione italiana.

[whitewater]

Since there are some other characters on this tree, could Magica be included on this as well? Also, Daisy has a grandmother named Dolores, mentioned last year in Mickey Mouse Fun House, (her image is on the Scrooge McDuck Wiki). I know Ludwig Von Drake is the husband of Matilda McDuck in this tree, but could she be married to another Duck 'uncle', maybe Willie Waddle, or Webfoot McWaddle?

I know this is a little off topic, but will there be middle names added? Donald's is Fauntleroy, seen in his WW2 Draft card.

[mkr]

Sept 2, 2024 0:26:42 GMT alquackskey said:

D 2007-423 (The title refers to family in multiple languages, couldn't find any info)

No relative appears in this story. I check both the Dutch and the German translations and they don't mention any relative. Just Scrooge, Gyro and Little Helper. 

Sept 2, 2024 0:26:42 GMT alquackskey said:

D 2012-023 (The marriage presumably doesn't go through, but worth noting as I haven't read it)

The marriage indeed doesn't go through, so no need to add to the tree.

Sept 4, 2024 3:13:12 GMT whitewater said:

Since there are some other characters on this tree, could Magica be included on this as well? Also, Daisy has a grandmother named Dolores, mentioned last year in Mickey Mouse Fun House, (her image is on the Scrooge McDuck Wiki). I know Ludwig Von Drake is the husband of Matilda McDuck in this tree, but could she be married to another Duck 'uncle', maybe Willie Waddle, or Webfoot McWaddle?

I know this is a little off topic, but will there be middle names added? Donald's is Fauntleroy, seen in his WW2 Draft card.

Magica will be added to the tree with the next update, because she is related to Madam Mim via the Loch Ness Monster.

Regarding Dolores, she probably would need to be merged then with one of the other grandmothers already on the tree. Maybe with the one from W WDC 111-02, since that one hasn't a name yet. 

I think we should only add another husband to Matilda if we have at least some kind of support or good reason for it. As far as I know we don't reallly have any source or so that connects Willie or Webfoot to Matilda. In that sense there isn't that much regarding a marriage with Ludwig either, but at least there is Rosa's unofficial second tree. 

I don't think that middle names should necessarily all be mentioned on the tree, but I am fine with adding Donald's middle name, as it is I think quite well established as being his middle name. 

[That Duckfan]

A few marriages of note...

inducks.org/story.php?c=H+27236 has Gus Goose dreaming about getting married. We see his imaginary spouse on the wedding cake.

inducks.org/story.php?c=D+2013-132 has the Clementine Cadiddlehopper story... We've discussed this one before, but the judge declares the marriage (to the fraudulent Vitriola Vultoure) shortly before annulling it. Now, annulment means that the marriage was never legally valid... but it was valid for a brief time, as we saw.

inducks.org/story.php?c=H+2015-010 has Daisy marry Glomgold. I don't understand why this one doesn't count, but maybe I'm missing some crucial story information.

[Matilda]

Aug 30, 2024 14:54:00 GMT Fethryfan said:

Aug 30, 2024 13:09:48 GMT That Duckfan said:

I want to bring to your attention H 25075, where Grandma Duck seems to be Daisy's grandmother. Or maybe she called everybody grandma when she was a child, I don't know.

Daisy always referred to Grandma Duck as... Grandma. I don't see the issue here. But then again i don't speak dutch. Could you give us some context, please?

Edit: Does Daisy specifically refers to Grandma Duck as "my grandma" or something similar?

I don't have time at the beginning of the school year to look up my copy, but I'm virtually certain that this story depicts Grandma Duck as having given Daisy her first diary when Daisy was a child, so yes, she is presented as Daisy's grandmother.