From what I read on Internet (I haven't got the book myself), Gerta and Sven are said to be HDL's aunt and uncle.
That means that: - they could be on their father's side - they could be 1/2 generation younger than Elvira (otherwise they would be great-greataunt/uncle, but from the pictures they look younger to me)
Edit (I found a copy of the book on archive.org): one of the ducklings says: "Grandma Duck says we'll be able to ski every day near Uncle Sven's and Aunt Gerta's house!", but nothing proves their relation.
Well, Gerta does *look* identical to Elvira!
Yes, but it doesn't mean anything. There are a lot of characters identical to the main ones that are not related to them (eg. Gregory used to draw a lot of unnamed characters like Gyro and even the girls looked like Donald with a wig). Besides there is no feature shared by Gerta and Elvira but the hair. And, I mean, I guess that two people could have the same hairstyle without being relatives.
Yes, but it doesn't mean anything. There are a lot of characters identical to the main ones that are not related to them (eg. Gregory used to draw a lot of unnamed characters like Gyro and even the girls looked like Donald with a wig). Besides there is no feature shared by Gerta and Elvira but the hair. And, I mean, I guess that two people could have the same hairstyle without being relatives.
You start off the reply by agreeing that "yes, Gerta and Elvira do look identical", yet later on you say "there is no feature shared by Gerta and Elvira but the hair". Which is your position on the matter?
I would say that there are indeed more similarities than the hair. They have the same general shape of head and eyes, and their beaks are also the same length. It looks as if the artist used Elvira's general design when designing Gerta. Since Gerta's hair is obscured by a hat, I'd even say that the hair is the only thing not identical between them. That and the fact that Gerta does not wear glasses.
That being said, this doesn't confirm that Gerta is Elvira's sister by any stretch. But that's as good a position as any. Anyways, here's an image of Gerta (the only one I know of) for reference:
Yes, but it doesn't mean anything. There are a lot of characters identical to the main ones that are not related to them (eg. Gregory used to draw a lot of unnamed characters like Gyro and even the girls looked like Donald with a wig). Besides there is no feature shared by Gerta and Elvira but the hair. And, I mean, I guess that two people could have the same hairstyle without being relatives.
You start off the reply by agreeing that "yes, Gerta and Elvira do look identical", yet later on you say "there is no feature shared by Gerta and Elvira but the hair". Which is your position on the matter?
I would say that there are indeed more similarities than the hair. They have the same general shape of head and eyes, and their beaks are also the same length. It looks as if the artist used Elvira's general design when designing Gerta. Since Gerta's hair is obscured by a hat, I'd even say that the hair is the only thing not identical between them. That and the fact that Gerta does not wear glasses.
That being said, this doesn't confirm that Gerta is Elvira's sister by any stretch. But that's as good a position as any. Anyways, here's an image of Gerta (the only one I know of) for reference:
This is the image I was referring to when I said about the same hairstyle.
Besides it, she is just Donald (or Daisy) with a shorter beak (kind of HDL's).
I spent my last three hours on INDUCKS reading all the post-Taliaferro daily strips featuring Scrooge, and there are thousands of those (until 1995). The most of them are repetitive and more or less amusing, but I also found something useful for this thread:
- Scrooge's cousin Paul is mentioned in YD 69-11-01 - Scrooge's great-great-great-grandmother Diamond Lil McDuck is mentioned in YD 73-02-06 (what kind of name it is by the way!) - Donald's great uncle (and therefore Scrooge's uncle) Happy Hester is portrayed in YD 76-06-18 (two more, unnamed, relatives are shown) - Scrooge's "family" tree in YD 82-10-06 - Daisy's family tree in YD 85-11-19 (unluckily the picture is very blurry, but it looks like her parents are on it)
- Scrooge's great-great-great-grandmother Diamond Lil McDuck is mentioned in YD 73-02-06 (what kind of name it is by the way!)
Great work, Sim! Since there are enough uncles and cousins already, Diamond Lil McDuck is definitely the most interesting to me out of these! Her name and position as Scrooge's g-g-g-grandmother indicates that she would have been Hugh "Seafoam" McDuck's wife and Silas and Potcrack's (and others') mother!
I did a reread of Gander's ancestors from Gilles tree's stories to check if they were correct and prune the wrong ones.
The story The Hound of Basketville make no mention of being about Gladstone ancestors, they are simply lookalikes. The only place where the relation may have been confirmed is Fumetti in stato di Grazia, an article only made in 2012, so long after Gilles ended his tree. He probably only placed Gladstone and Crabstone because they looked similar (like he made for John Rockerduck, simil-Rk that we agreed to remove).
Lochbert Gander is explicitly mentioned in a story, so his place in the tree is confirmed.
In his tree, Gilles place as Lochbert and Crabstone father a character named "Nicolas Gander". I found that you already mentioned it in an old thread. Being the name a product of translation, I agree with not including him.
I have to disagree with your idea of mcTavish. First of all, the armour can't be his, because at the end of the story we learn that mcTavish castle is the little one, not the big one with the armour.
Plus he isn't related to $crooge, who explicitly states "I remember my old pappy telling me that his old pappy was related to a mcTavish Duck". I'm not familiar with the term "old pappy", does it means "father" or "grandfather"?
I did a reread of Gander's ancestors from Gilles tree's stories to check if they were correct and prune the wrong ones.
The story The Hound of Basketville make no mention of being about Gladstone ancestors, they are simply lookalikes. The only place where the relation may have been confirmed is Fumetti in stato di Grazia, an article only made in 2012, so long after Gilles ended his tree. He probably only placed Gladstone and Crabstone because they looked similar (like he made for John Rockerduck, simil-Rk that we agreed to remove).
Lochbert Gander is explicitly mentioned in a story, so his place in the tree is confirmed.
In his tree, Gilles place as Lochbert and Crabstone father a character named "Nicolas Gander". I found that you already mentioned it in an old thread. Being the name a product of translation, I agree with not including him.
I have to disagree with your idea of mcTavish. First of all, the armour can't be his, because at the end of the story we learn that mcTavish castle is the little one, not the big one with the armour.
Plus he isn't related to $crooge, who explicitly states "I remember my old pappy telling me that his old pappy was related to a mcTavish Duck". I'm not familiar with the term "old pappy", does it means "father" or "grandfather"?
For "Lieutenant Gladstone" I'll do another post later, because that story involves many other families.
Gladstone of Basketville is indeed never confirmed to be related to Gladstone of the present (as far as I'm aware). I believe I've mentioned earlier in this thread that his current inclusion is just a placeholder until a more fitting and confirmed candidate can take his place. So if anyone finds an actual "Grandpa Gander" I would be more than willing to remove Gladstone of Basketville. However, his removal would mean the removal of Crabstone too, as those to are explicitly said to be related.
I've never thought of the fact that the armor is placed in the castle that is confirmed to not be McTavish's! You're absolutely right! Now onto your "old pappy"-point. "Pappy" could mean either father or grandfather. In any case, Scrooge's father/grandfather's father/grandfather was related to a McTavish Duck. Gilles' tree takes this fact into account by making Scrooge's great-great-grandmother a Duck, and having her be McTavish's daughter. I refrained from doing this back in the day when this was more like my head-canon-tree, as I don't like the idea of the Ducks and McDucks having interbred too many times in past generations... It makes the Quackmore-Hortense-relationship closer to incest, which I'd like to avoid. However, nowadays, this tree is more about documenting as many genealogical connections as possible, rather than being limited to my head-canon. From what I remember, I disagreed with Gilles about McTavish being as young as he is in Gilles' tree. But otherwise, I guess I don't mind making Silas McDuck's wife a Duck descendant of McTavish Duck.
I thought I mentioned it earlier in the thread, but I seem to recall that Gappo Buonasorte's outfit indicates that he lived further back in time than my family tree shows. That's the reason why I didn't include him. (edit: Yes, according to Wikipedia (a super-reliable source, I know), the collar that Gappo wears (known as a ruff or millstone collar) was fashionable around the mid-1500s to the mid-1600s. It's been a while since I've done the math, but he might be placed as Lochbert Gander's grandfather or great-grandfather or something like that. I'll have to take closer look at this at some other time!)
I'm not sure what you mean by the Lieutenant Gladstone-story involving many other families. There are only a Civil war-Donald and a Civil war-Gladstone in that story, right? I guess that, like Gladstone of Basketville, the Civil war-Gladstone isn't confirmed to be an ancestor of present day Gladstone Gander, but I think I'll keep him until he needs to be replaced.
I had a look at some older posts in this thread and realized that we never found a proper placement for Zamberlukko from Zio Paperone e l'eredità giacente. If I understand correctly, he is said to have been a pirate from Donald's mother's side of the family, yet he's also said to not have been related to Scrooge. Now, of course that's a contradiction. The two options for that seem to be 1) to simply ignore the "not related to Scrooge"-part and put Zamberlukko somewhere on the McDuck-branch anyways (maybe as Blackbeak's father or something like that), or 2) place Zamberlukko somewhere on Donald's father's mother's side of the family. This way, he won't be related to Scrooge. However, this disregards the "Donald's mother's side of the family" bit.
What are your thoughts on this issue? And also, how far back in time did this Zamberlukko guy live?
I did a reread of Gander's ancestors from Gilles tree's stories to check if they were correct and prune the wrong ones.
The story The Hound of Basketville make no mention of being about Gladstone ancestors, they are simply lookalikes. The only place where the relation may have been confirmed is Fumetti in stato di Grazia, an article only made in 2012, so long after Gilles ended his tree. He probably only placed Gladstone and Crabstone because they looked similar (like he made for John Rockerduck, simil-Rk that we agreed to remove).
Lochbert Gander is explicitly mentioned in a story, so his place in the tree is confirmed.
In his tree, Gilles place as Lochbert and Crabstone father a character named "Nicolas Gander". I found that you already mentioned it in an old thread. Being the name a product of translation, I agree with not including him.
I have to disagree with your idea of mcTavish. First of all, the armour can't be his, because at the end of the story we learn that mcTavish castle is the little one, not the big one with the armour.
Plus he isn't related to $crooge, who explicitly states "I remember my old pappy telling me that his old pappy was related to a mcTavish Duck". I'm not familiar with the term "old pappy", does it means "father" or "grandfather"?
For "Lieutenant Gladstone" I'll do another post later, because that story involves many other families.
Gladstone of Basketville is indeed never confirmed to be related to Gladstone of the present (as far as I'm aware). I believe I've mentioned earlier in this thread that his current inclusion is just a placeholder until a more fitting and confirmed candidate can take his place. So if anyone finds an actual "Grandpa Gander" I would be more than willing to remove Gladstone of Basketville. However, his removal would mean the removal of Crabstone too, as those to are explicitly said to be related.
Okay, if you want to keep them as placeholders is completely fine. Just mentioned it because I thought you got those from the Gilles tree thinking they were actually related.
I've never thought of the fact that the armor is placed in the castle that is confirmed to not be McTavish's! You're absolutely right! Now onto your "old pappy"-point. "Pappy" could mean either father or grandfather. In any case, Scrooge's father/grandfather's father/grandfather was related to a McTavish Duck. Gilles' tree takes this fact into account by making Scrooge's great-great-grandmother a Duck, and having her be McTavish's daughter. I refrained from doing this back in the day when this was more like my head-canon-tree, as I don't like the idea of the Ducks and McDucks having interbred too many times in past generations... It makes the Quackmore-Hortense-relationship closer to incest, which I'd like to avoid. However, nowadays, this tree is more about documenting as many genealogical connections as possible, rather than being limited to my head-canon. From what I remember, I disagreed with Gilles about McTavish being as young as he is in Gilles' tree. But otherwise, I guess I don't mind making Silas McDuck's wife a Duck descendant of McTavish Duck.
It's probably better to go with Gilles interpretation of "pappy", so $crooge's g-g-grandfather would be related to mcTavish (using "father" wouldn't bring us close enough to the time). Considering Gilles relation (g-g-grampa having married a daughter of mcTavish) would make Hortense and Quackmore 4° cousins at best.
However the tree should be moved a bit, because Gladstone must be the closest relative to mcTavish. So maybe DD and $crooge are related to mcTavish through nieces of him?
I thought I mentioned it earlier in the thread, but I seem to recall that Gappo Buonasorte's outfit indicates that he lived further back in time than my family tree shows. That's the reason why I didn't include him. (edit: Yes, according to Wikipedia (a super-reliable source, I know), the collar that Gappo wears (known as a ruff or millstone collar) was fashionable around the mid-1500s to the mid-1600s. It's been a while since I've done the math, but he might be placed as Lochbert Gander's grandfather or great-grandfather or something like that. I'll have to take closer look at this at some other time!)
Sorry, I must have miss that comment. But yes, from what his clothings then he must be out of the timeframe of your tree.
I had a look at some older posts in this thread and realized that we never found a proper placement for Zamberlukko from Zio Paperone e l'eredità giacente. If I understand correctly, he is said to have been a pirate from Donald's mother's side of the family, yet he's also said to not have been related to Scrooge. Now, of course that's a contradiction. The two options for that seem to be 1) to simply ignore the "not related to Scrooge"-part and put Zamberlukko somewhere on the McDuck-branch anyways (maybe as Blackbeak's father or something like that), or 2) place Zamberlukko somewhere on Donald's father's mother's side of the family. This way, he won't be related to Scrooge. However, this disregards the "Donald's mother's side of the family" bit.
What are your thoughts on this issue? And also, how far back in time did this Zamberlukko guy live?
Being that all the story centers around DD being Zamberlukko's heir because he is the direct descendant, I think that option 1 can be crossed out (if $crooge was a direct descendant too, he would have claimed the inheritance from the start). So I would go with option 2.
For the timeframe, we don't have any confirmed dates, but Zamberlukko was a pirate in the Caribbean area, so he probably operated between 1500s and 1700s.
I reread the story Paperino eroe di Duckburg, to control if "Tenente Gastone" was really Gladstone ancestor, and found much more.
For once I found that the information in Gilles tree were correct, even more than in this ultimate tree. But first let's see what the story tells:
We learn that Donald's great-grandfather, he too called "Paperino" like his great-grandson (so Donald in a possible english adaptation?), was a soldier in the Secession War, for the Northern side, and even won a medal for that. If I understood it correctly, you already placed him as Danial/Daniel/Donald "Bluffer" Duck, right?
Then we learn that great-granpa worked in a farm owned by his uncle, a rich man who had fields and factories, called "Paperone" (so Scrooge?). This one is in Gilles tree, but I can't find him in yours.
At the farm, with great-granpa Paperino, worked a Gus-lookalike called "Ciccio" (Gus?). He too referred to "Paperone" as uncle, so he is brother/cousin of g-granpa. In your tree he is placed as Gus Goose's great-grandfather, called Gus Goose too.
At the farm there is another lookalike, called "Nonna Papera" (Grandma Duck?) by "Paperone". Other than this name, we have no mention of a relation with the others lookalikes. In your tree is placed as the unnamed pathernal grandmother of Danial/Daniel/Donald "Bluffer" Duck.
Something to decide what surname give them: in italian "Paperino", even if it's the most common used way to refer to DD, is DD's surname, being him "Paolino Paperino". So we can assume that he is a Duck. Same thing for the italian of "Nonna Papera", which literally means Grandma Duck. So if we think she is related to the others, she is probably in the same way as current-grandma Duck.
Instead, both "Paperone" and "Ciccio" are first name in italian (the surname are respectively "de Paperoni" [= mcDuck] and "dell'Oca" [= Goose]). For that reason we can't say for certain that they are Duck, nor we can cross it out.
In your tree, and in Gilles' too, "Ciccio" is placed as Gus Goose great-grandfather. This thing is never mentioned in the story, but in the article on Scarpa Omnia 19, introducing the story, this is said: "Nelle file nordiste si arruolarono anche il bisnonno di Paperino e quello di Ciccio", translatable as "The grandfather of Donald and the one of Gus enlisted in the Northern Army too", confirming that this Gus-lookalike is effectively Gus Goose's great-grandfather.
In the same article there is also a mention of "Tenente Gastone", here mentioned as an "avo di Gastone" = "direct ancestor of Gladstone".
The panels where the lookalikes in your tree came from
I reread the story Paperino eroe di Duckburg, to control if "Tenente Gastone" was really Gladstone ancestor, and found much more.
For once I found that the information in Gilles tree were correct, even more than in this ultimate tree. But first let's see what the story tells:
We learn that Donald's great-grandfather, he too called "Paperino" like his great-grandson (so Donald in a possible english adaptation?), was a soldier in the Secession War, for the Northern side, and even won a medal for that. If I understood it correctly, you already placed him as Danial/Daniel/Donald "Bluffer" Duck, right?
Then we learn that great-granpa worked in a farm owned by his uncle, a rich man who had fields and factories, called "Paperone" (so Scrooge?). This one is in Gilles tree, but I can't find him in yours.
At the farm, with great-granpa Paperino, worked a Gus-lookalike called "Ciccio" (Gus?). He too referred to "Paperone" as uncle, so he is brother/cousin of g-granpa. In your tree he is placed as Gus Goose's great-grandfather, called Gus Goose too.
At the farm there is another lookalike, called "Nonna Papera" (Grandma Duck?) by "Paperone". Other than this name, we have no mention of a relation with the others lookalikes. In your tree is placed as the unnamed pathernal grandmother of Danial/Daniel/Donald "Bluffer" Duck.
Something to decide what surname give them: in italian "Paperino", even if it's the most common used way to refer to DD, is DD's surname, being him "Paolino Paperino". So we can assume that he is a Duck. Same thing for the italian of "Nonna Papera", which literally means Grandma Duck. So if we think she is related to the others, she is probably in the same way as current-grandma Duck.
Instead, both "Paperone" and "Ciccio" are first name in italian (the surname are respectively "de Paperoni" [= mcDuck] and "dell'Oca" [= Goose]). For that reason we can't say for certain that they are Duck, nor we can cross it out.
In your tree, and in Gilles' too, "Ciccio" is placed as Gus Goose great-grandfather. This thing is never mentioned in the story, but in the article on Scarpa Omnia 19, introducing the story, this is said: "Nelle file nordiste si arruolarono anche il bisnonno di Paperino e quello di Ciccio", translatable as "The grandfather of Donald and the one of Gus enlisted in the Northern Army too", confirming that this Gus-lookalike is effectively Gus Goose's great-grandfather.
In the same article there is also a mention of "Tenente Gastone", here mentioned as an "avo di Gastone" = "direct ancestor of Gladstone".
Oh, I had completely forgotten about the Scrooge, Gus, and Grandma for some reason... Anyways, yes, the Danial/Daniel/and so on is indeed meant to represent the character we are talking about. This Scrooge used to be on the tree. I don't recall why I removed him. As you said, Gus and Grandma are already there. My only reference until now has been the Swedish version, and in that one Gus never calls Scrooge "Uncle", so I didn't connect him to the others. But it's good to know that there's at least a source confirming Gus and the Lieutenant's connections to the Goose and Gander families respectively. I'll fix these other things in the next update!
In the story Zio Paperone e la lotta per la corona we learn that almost 300 years ago (so still in the range of your tree) the "bankers of Magonza" (which is the italian name of Mainz in Germany) offered a loan to the prince of Farnientzja, which was never repaid. An official from the principality trace the debt, and discovers that "a discendant of a collateral branch of one of those bankers" is $crooge. He received it through his direct ancestor Paper von Paperonen (which isn't said when he lived, so we can suppose he lived around 300 years ago too, and probably was the collateral branch mentioned).
I would add this character (and the unnamed banker, maybe his brother/cousin) in the german area
I'm working on the tree today. Hopefully there will be a new update in a few days! But I stumbled on this post which I never really commented on, so here goes. Here are a few questions for Farmspirit:
- You suggest that Paper von Paperonen was one of the bankers' brother or cousin. Is it possible that Paper von Paperonen himself was one of the bankers, rather than a separate individual?
- You suggest that Paper von Paperonen (plus the banker) be added "in the German area". I assume you mean that they should be added to a German branch of the McDuck-part of the tree but... I'm not sure that there is one! Have I missed any German ducks on the tree? I can't find any von Paperonens either!
- The "present" time is around 1950, so 300 years before that would be 1650. Hugh "Seafoam" McDuck was born in 1710, and his father Locksley McDuck would have been born around 1680, and Locksley's father Duncan McDuck would have been born around 1650. Duncan's generation is the earliest one represented on the tree. However, the bankers of Magonza were active and doing banking stuff in 1650, which implies that they were adults at this time, and thus they would have been born at least one generation before Duncan McDuck. (Maybe Paper von Paperonen could have been Maura (Duncan's wife)'s father?) Then again, you said that the bankers of Magonza offered the loan "almost 300 years ago", meaning that they could indeed have been from the same generation as Duncan McDuck.
In the story Zio Paperone e la lotta per la corona we learn that almost 300 years ago (so still in the range of your tree) the "bankers of Magonza" (which is the italian name of Mainz in Germany) offered a loan to the prince of Farnientzja, which was never repaid. An official from the principality trace the debt, and discovers that "a discendant of a collateral branch of one of those bankers" is $crooge. He received it through his direct ancestor Paper von Paperonen (which isn't said when he lived, so we can suppose he lived around 300 years ago too, and probably was the collateral branch mentioned).
I would add this character (and the unnamed banker, maybe his brother/cousin) in the german area
I'm working on the tree today. Hopefully there will be a new update in a few days! But I stumbled on this post which I never really commented on, so here goes. Here are a few questions for Farmspirit:
- You suggest that Paper von Paperonen was one of the bankers' brother or cousin. Is it possible that Paper von Paperonen himself was one of the bankers, rather than a separate individual?
I thought that Paper von Paperonen was (at least) a brother/cousin of the banker, because they say that $crooge is a "descendant of a collateral branch", and I thought that Paper was the start of that branch. But it is possible that that the bankers was Paper, and the branch originated from a relative of him.
- You suggest that Paper von Paperonen (plus the banker) be added "in the German area". I assume you mean that they should be added to a German branch of the McDuck-part of the tree but... I'm not sure that there is one! Have I missed any German ducks on the tree? I can't find any von Paperonens either!
I thought that between all the characters, there was already one from the German area, maybe between some of the characters with "von" in the surname, from D-coded stories or similar. Maybe related to the "van Duck"? But you know the tree better than me, so if there are no german characters, this one could fit everywhere.
- The "present" time is around 1950, so 300 years before that would be 1650. Hugh "Seafoam" McDuck was born in 1710, and his father Locksley McDuck would have been born around 1680, and Locksley's father Duncan McDuck would have been born around 1650. Duncan's generation is the earliest one represented on the tree. However, the bankers of Magonza were active and doing banking stuff in 1650, which implies that they were adults at this time, and thus they would have been born at least one generation before Duncan McDuck. (Maybe Paper von Paperonen could have been Maura (Duncan's wife)'s father?) Then again, you said that the bankers of Magonza offered the loan "almost 300 years ago", meaning that they could indeed have been from the same generation as Duncan McDuck.
This may be an error of mine, since I consider the "present" the entire period from when the first comics where published to now, so for me "300 years ago" would be start of 1700. Using your timeframe, instead, he probably would have been right outside the slot in which you accept relatives.