So, there's an unnamed Duck to Crockett Duck's immediate left; this character is supposedly from Eroe di Duckburg. In the story, however, she is explicitly named as 'Nonna Papera' - the image provided might also work as a better scan if it helps
She's also explicitly referred to as "Il bisnonno Paperino", so we can confirm they're related
As for Gastone, I'd agree that they're probably not related - there's nothing confirmed either way, but Paperino never mentions his name once. After holding up the cart and they interact for the first time, Gastone says "Grazie, Papero!" - which, in context, would probably translate to 'Thanks, kid!' since he doesn't call him Paperino. Beyond that, they only ever refer to each other as 'Nordista' and 'Sudista' - 'Northerner' and 'Southerner'. The fact that they never mention any kind of relationship despite spending a good chunk of the story stuck together is a solid enough indicator.
That Duckfan That Angus is on the tree between Wilma and Cyril on Line 3
As for Dreary Duck, is the version you're referring to the original? And is it definitely Scrooge's dad in question? He's down on this tree as Pamfilius McDuck, and is several generations old
Resident autistic, diabetic duck fan.
I love hearing about bizarre/obscure Disney works - recommendations welcome!
* While often interesting and discussing some niche topics, xanderares's articles are often wrong on some facts, or mix official informations with fan-made facts (an example for the latter is the whole "Via col Vento" section. It made up all the names and likeness of Donald Butler and Paperella o'Hara's parents, but doesn't mention neither her aunt Polly or her grandfather, both mentioned and/or appearing in the story) (example for the former, instead, is this other article about "A tree for free" story. It claims that the story in the original language mention a great-great-grandfather of Daisy named Pamfilius Duck, plus in an edit says that in an english translation he is named Jason Duck. I went and check the first print of the story, directly from 1962, and no, he isn't Daisy gr-gr-grandpa, nor he is called Pamfilius/Jason. Instead he is Da "great, great uncle" like in the italian version)
This seems to be the source of all the Pamfilius consternation. The information I gave is correct.
I'm not sure what the deal is with S 75108, and I can't check that one.
Last Edit: Nov 30, 2022 21:19:03 GMT by That Duckfan
* While often interesting and discussing some niche topics, xanderares's articles are often wrong on some facts, or mix official informations with fan-made facts (an example for the latter is the whole "Via col Vento" section. It made up all the names and likeness of Donald Butler and Paperella o'Hara's parents, but doesn't mention neither her aunt Polly or her grandfather, both mentioned and/or appearing in the story) (example for the former, instead, is this other article about "A tree for free" story. It claims that the story in the original language mention a great-great-grandfather of Daisy named Pamfilius Duck, plus in an edit says that in an english translation he is named Jason Duck. I went and check the first print of the story, directly from 1962, and no, he isn't Daisy gr-gr-grandpa, nor he is called Pamfilius/Jason. Instead he is Da "great, great uncle" like in the italian version)
This seems to be the source of all the Pamfilius consternation. The information I gave is correct.
I'm not sure what the deal is with S 75108, and I can't check that one.
Reading from INDUCKS: in the Italian version he is called Scrooge's "avo" (as farmspirit noted, it means direct ancestor), while the Spanish makes it clear he is Scrooge's "abuelo" (grandfather); in Brazil he is "tio" (uncle), and in France "arrière-grand-oncle" (great-granduncle)... Not sure which one we should credit, but the French one would seem the least difficult one (as Scrooge already has grandfathers and g-grandfathers).
His name is Fortunato de' Paperoni in Italy, Fortunato Pato in Spain, Lucas in Brazil and Picsou Franc-Rire in France.
This seems to be the source of all the Pamfilius consternation. The information I gave is correct.
I'm not sure what the deal is with S 75108, and I can't check that one.
Reading from INDUCKS: in the Italian version he is called Scrooge's "avo" (as farmspirit noted, it means direct ancestor), while the Spanish makes it clear he is Scrooge's "abuelo" (grandfather); in Brazil he is "tio" (uncle), and in France "arrière-grand-oncle" (great-granduncle)... Not sure which one we should credit, but the French one would seem the least difficult one (as Scrooge already has grandfathers and g-grandfathers).
His name is Fortunato de' Paperoni in Italy, Fortunato Pato in Spain, Lucas in Brazil and Picsou Franc-Rire in France.
Ahh, okay, thank you for this! I'm no expert, so I'll leave the decision to LP and mkr
Also, I took everyone's advice - I'm transferring all of my notes into a Spreadsheet It's a dull process, but it's much more readable, and I'm organizing it in a way that I can keep track of what issues have arisen around certain characters Plus, since it's basically starting over in terms of formatting, I'm following mkr's website - with the Spreadsheet I'll be able to keep up more accurately
Resident autistic, diabetic duck fan.
I love hearing about bizarre/obscure Disney works - recommendations welcome!
So, there's an unnamed Duck to Crockett Duck's immediate left; this character is supposedly from Eroe di Duckburg. In the story, however, she is explicitly named as 'Nonna Papera' - the image provided might also work as a better scan if it helps
She's also explicitly referred to as "Il bisnonno Paperino", so we can confirm they're related
The unnamed duck left to Crockett Duck is definitely the "Nonna Papera" from Eroe di Duckburg story, the image is clearly taken from a low-rez copy of this panel
But you are confusing two characters together. The "bisnonno Paperino" (which means "great-grandfather [italian surname for DD, but most of the time used instead of the name]") is the DD-lookalike.
I guess the Grandma Duck's lookalike was never given a name in the tree because it was assumed she was like current-Grandma Duck, and the "Papera" (=Duck) part is her husband's surname, that she took after marriage.
As for Gastone, I'd agree that they're probably not related - there's nothing confirmed either way, but Paperino never mentions his name once. After holding up the cart and they interact for the first time, Gastone says "Grazie, Papero!" - which, in context, would probably translate to 'Thanks, kid!' since he doesn't call him Paperino. Beyond that, they only ever refer to each other as 'Nordista' and 'Sudista' - 'Northerner' and 'Southerner'. The fact that they never mention any kind of relationship despite spending a good chunk of the story stuck together is a solid enough indicator.
About the "Tenente Gastone" part I have to correct myself. It is right that there is no confermation of the relationship in the story, but a confirmation comes from an introductory article to the story on Scarpa's Omnia, written by Alberto Becattini. It is a secondary source, and it is possible that its parentage attribution was influenced by Gilles work, which placed both the Gus-lookalike and Gladstone-lookalike as ancestors of their counterparts, but it could still be a valid source if you consider it valid (I personally value this kind of articles as second-level canon, ie I consider them acceptable unless they contraddict something in more important sources, like stories).
I had already founded the article in question, but when replying to your comment I checked with the search tool if we already discussed the story, and nothing came up. Which is clearly wrong, because I clearly wrote this post in the thread one year ago, yet the searchbar didn't picked it up. I think the reason may be because this thread as reached such a size that the searchbar isn't able to check all the responses, and only search in the firsts and lasts pages.
I reread the story Paperino eroe di Duckburg, to control if "Tenente Gastone" was really Gladstone ancestor, and found much more.
For once I found that the information in Gilles tree were correct, even more than in this ultimate tree. But first let's see what the story tells:
We learn that Donald's great-grandfather, he too called "Paperino" like his great-grandson (so Donald in a possible english adaptation?), was a soldier in the Secession War, for the Northern side, and even won a medal for that. If I understood it correctly, you already placed him as Danial/Daniel/Donald "Bluffer" Duck, right?
Then we learn that great-granpa worked in a farm owned by his uncle, a rich man who had fields and factories, called "Paperone" (so Scrooge?). This one is in Gilles tree, but I can't find him in yours.
At the farm, with great-granpa Paperino, worked a Gus-lookalike called "Ciccio" (Gus?). He too referred to "Paperone" as uncle, so he is brother/cousin of g-granpa. In your tree he is placed as Gus Goose's great-grandfather, called Gus Goose too.
At the farm there is another lookalike, called "Nonna Papera" (Grandma Duck?) by "Paperone". Other than this name, we have no mention of a relation with the others lookalikes. In your tree is placed as the unnamed pathernal grandmother of Danial/Daniel/Donald "Bluffer" Duck.
Something to decide what surname give them: in italian "Paperino", even if it's the most common used way to refer to DD, is DD's surname, being him "Paolino Paperino". So we can assume that he is a Duck. Same thing for the italian of "Nonna Papera", which literally means Grandma Duck. So if we think she is related to the others, she is probably in the same way as current-grandma Duck.
Instead, both "Paperone" and "Ciccio" are first name in italian (the surname are respectively "de Paperoni" [= mcDuck] and "dell'Oca" [= Goose]). For that reason we can't say for certain that they are Duck, nor we can cross it out.
In your tree, and in Gilles' too, "Ciccio" is placed as Gus Goose great-grandfather. This thing is never mentioned in the story, but in the article on Scarpa Omnia 19, introducing the story, this is said: "Nelle file nordiste si arruolarono anche il bisnonno di Paperino e quello di Ciccio", translatable as "The grandfather of Donald and the one of Gus enlisted in the Northern Army too", confirming that this Gus-lookalike is effectively Gus Goose's great-grandfather.
In the same article there is also a mention of "Tenente Gastone", here mentioned as an "avo di Gastone" = "direct ancestor of Gladstone".
The panels where the lookalikes in your tree came from
Could we make Ocagliostro DuckPaper McPaperDuck's brother rather than son? He looks way too old for someone in his row.
That might be possible, but I don't know anything about the story. What relation between Ocagliostro and Scrooge and Rockerduck is mentioned in the original version?
Reading from INDUCKS: in the Italian version he is called Scrooge's "avo" (as farmspirit noted, it means direct ancestor), while the Spanish makes it clear he is Scrooge's "abuelo" (grandfather); in Brazil he is "tio" (uncle), and in France "arrière-grand-oncle" (great-granduncle)... Not sure which one we should credit, but the French one would seem the least difficult one (as Scrooge already has grandfathers and g-grandfathers).
His name is Fortunato de' Paperoni in Italy, Fortunato Pato in Spain, Lucas in Brazil and Picsou Franc-Rire in France.
Ahh, okay, thank you for this! I'm no expert, so I'll leave the decision to LP and mkr
As long as we don't know what relationship is stated in the original script, I think we can just leave Pamfilius at the position he is now (which follows the French translation). But if he is a direct ancestor in the original script, he can be merged with Scrooge's great-grandfather Ebenezer/Pampero/Potluck/Sciupone, who is already a merged character that lived some time as a prospector in America.
Also, I took everyone's advice - I'm transferring all of my notes into a Spreadsheet It's a dull process, but it's much more readable, and I'm organizing it in a way that I can keep track of what issues have arisen around certain characters Plus, since it's basically starting over in terms of formatting, I'm following mkr's website - with the Spreadsheet I'll be able to keep up more accurately
If you are doing the indexation based on the tree on the website, I will not do any major updates for the moment and wait until the index has finished, as it would otherwise be very confusing.
Could we make Ocagliostro DuckPaper McPaperDuck's brother rather than son? He looks way too old for someone in his row.
That might be possible, but I don't know anything about the story. What relation between Ocagliostro and Scrooge and Rockerduck is mentioned in the original version?
The italian text use the term "bis-bis-biscugini". Since "biscugino" means 2° cousin, and when used for grandparents every "bis" is like a "great", "bis-bis-biscugino" is probably translatable as 4° cousin.
Now the problem is understanding if the system used to count the degrees is the anglofone one, or the italian one. Because the anglofone counts the generations from the first common ancestor (minus one); while the italian one counts the blood degrees of separation (minus three).
At the moment the LP tree is using neither systems: in the anglostyle Rk/$mD is third cousin with Ocagliostro, while in the italian style they are fifth cousins.
So, there's an unnamed Duck to Crockett Duck's immediate left; this character is supposedly from Eroe di Duckburg. In the story, however, she is explicitly named as 'Nonna Papera' - the image provided might also work as a better scan if it helps
She's also explicitly referred to as "Il bisnonno Paperino", so we can confirm they're related
The unnamed duck left to Crockett Duck is definitely the "Nonna Papera" from Eroe di Duckburg story, the image is clearly taken from a low-rez copy of this panel
But you are confusing two characters together. The "bisnonno Paperino" (which means "great-grandfather [italian surname for DD, but most of the time used instead of the name]") is the DD-lookalike.
I guess the Grandma Duck's lookalike was never given a name in the tree because it was assumed she was like current-Grandma Duck, and the "Papera" (=Duck) part is her husband's surname, that she took after marriage.
As for Gastone, I'd agree that they're probably not related - there's nothing confirmed either way, but Paperino never mentions his name once. After holding up the cart and they interact for the first time, Gastone says "Grazie, Papero!" - which, in context, would probably translate to 'Thanks, kid!' since he doesn't call him Paperino. Beyond that, they only ever refer to each other as 'Nordista' and 'Sudista' - 'Northerner' and 'Southerner'. The fact that they never mention any kind of relationship despite spending a good chunk of the story stuck together is a solid enough indicator.
About the "Tenente Gastone" part I have to correct myself. It is right that there is no confermation of the relationship in the story, but a confirmation comes from an introductory article to the story on Scarpa's Omnia, written by Alberto Becattini. It is a secondary source, and it is possible that its parentage attribution was influenced by Gilles work, which placed both the Gus-lookalike and Gladstone-lookalike as ancestors of their counterparts, but it could still be a valid source if you consider it valid (I personally value this kind of articles as second-level canon, ie I consider them acceptable unless they contraddict something in more important sources, like stories).
I had already founded the article in question, but when replying to your comment I checked with the search tool if we already discussed the story, and nothing came up. Which is clearly wrong, because I clearly wrote this post in the thread one year ago, yet the searchbar didn't picked it up. I think the reason may be because this thread as reached such a size that the searchbar isn't able to check all the responses, and only search in the firsts and lasts pages.
I reread the story Paperino eroe di Duckburg, to control if "Tenente Gastone" was really Gladstone ancestor, and found much more.
For once I found that the information in Gilles tree were correct, even more than in this ultimate tree. But first let's see what the story tells:
We learn that Donald's great-grandfather, he too called "Paperino" like his great-grandson (so Donald in a possible english adaptation?), was a soldier in the Secession War, for the Northern side, and even won a medal for that. If I understood it correctly, you already placed him as Danial/Daniel/Donald "Bluffer" Duck, right?
Then we learn that great-granpa worked in a farm owned by his uncle, a rich man who had fields and factories, called "Paperone" (so Scrooge?). This one is in Gilles tree, but I can't find him in yours.
At the farm, with great-granpa Paperino, worked a Gus-lookalike called "Ciccio" (Gus?). He too referred to "Paperone" as uncle, so he is brother/cousin of g-granpa. In your tree he is placed as Gus Goose's great-grandfather, called Gus Goose too.
At the farm there is another lookalike, called "Nonna Papera" (Grandma Duck?) by "Paperone". Other than this name, we have no mention of a relation with the others lookalikes. In your tree is placed as the unnamed pathernal grandmother of Danial/Daniel/Donald "Bluffer" Duck.
Something to decide what surname give them: in italian "Paperino", even if it's the most common used way to refer to DD, is DD's surname, being him "Paolino Paperino". So we can assume that he is a Duck. Same thing for the italian of "Nonna Papera", which literally means Grandma Duck. So if we think she is related to the others, she is probably in the same way as current-grandma Duck.
Instead, both "Paperone" and "Ciccio" are first name in italian (the surname are respectively "de Paperoni" [= mcDuck] and "dell'Oca" [= Goose]). For that reason we can't say for certain that they are Duck, nor we can cross it out.
In your tree, and in Gilles' too, "Ciccio" is placed as Gus Goose great-grandfather. This thing is never mentioned in the story, but in the article on Scarpa Omnia 19, introducing the story, this is said: "Nelle file nordiste si arruolarono anche il bisnonno di Paperino e quello di Ciccio", translatable as "The grandfather of Donald and the one of Gus enlisted in the Northern Army too", confirming that this Gus-lookalike is effectively Gus Goose's great-grandfather.
In the same article there is also a mention of "Tenente Gastone", here mentioned as an "avo di Gastone" = "direct ancestor of Gladstone".
The panels where the lookalikes in your tree came from
The article on Scarpa Omnia
"Hmm... bisnonno... I'm pretty confident! You know what? I won't even double-check, I know what I'm talking about!" - alquackskey, moments before disaster
As for Gastone, I didn't even think to read the article - so good spotting that! I'd leave the decisions to LP and mkr, but I, personally, would consider that a valid source for keeping Gastone on the tree!
Could we make Ocagliostro DuckPaper McPaperDuck's brother rather than son? He looks way too old for someone in his row.
That might be possible, but I don't know anything about the story. What relation between Ocagliostro and Scrooge and Rockerduck is mentioned in the original version?
Ahh, okay, thank you for this! I'm no expert, so I'll leave the decision to LP and mkr
As long as we don't know what relationship is stated in the original script, I think we can just leave Pamfilius at the position he is now (which follows the French translation). But if he is a direct ancestor in the original script, he can be merged with Scrooge's great-grandfather Ebenezer/Pampero/Potluck/Sciupone, who is already a merged character that lived some time as a prospector in America.
Also, I took everyone's advice - I'm transferring all of my notes into a Spreadsheet It's a dull process, but it's much more readable, and I'm organizing it in a way that I can keep track of what issues have arisen around certain characters Plus, since it's basically starting over in terms of formatting, I'm following mkr's website - with the Spreadsheet I'll be able to keep up more accurately
If you are doing the indexation based on the tree on the website, I will not do any major updates for the moment and wait until the index has finished, as it would otherwise be very confusing.
Got it - I'll leave Pamfilius as is for now
As for the indexation, don't worry about the website! The spreadsheet system is much more organized, so I could account for changes in placement and whatnot
Resident autistic, diabetic duck fan.
I love hearing about bizarre/obscure Disney works - recommendations welcome!
About the "Tenente Gastone" part I have to correct myself. It is right that there is no confermation of the relationship in the story, but a confirmation comes from an introductory article to the story on Scarpa's Omnia, written by Alberto Becattini. It is a secondary source, and it is possible that its parentage attribution was influenced by Gilles work, which placed both the Gus-lookalike and Gladstone-lookalike as ancestors of their counterparts, but it could still be a valid source if you consider it valid (I personally value this kind of articles as second-level canon, ie I consider them acceptable unless they contraddict something in more important sources, like stories).
Becattini is a human. Probably one of the most Disney-comics (and comics in general) knowing humans, but still he is one. I mean, maybe Scarpa told him that the Tenente was a Gladstone's ancestor, but it wouldn't surprise me if he just supposed that the lookalikes were ancestors of their nowadays counterparts, as the Donald's one in fact is.
That might be possible, but I don't know anything about the story. What relation between Ocagliostro and Scrooge and Rockerduck is mentioned in the original version?
The italian text use the term "bis-bis-biscugini". Since "biscugino" means 2° cousin, and when used for grandparents every "bis" is like a "great", "bis-bis-biscugino" is probably translatable as 4° cousin.
Now the problem is understanding if the system used to count the degrees is the anglofone one, or the italian one. Because the anglofone counts the generations from the first common ancestor (minus one); while the italian one counts the blood degrees of separation (minus three).
At the moment the LP tree is using neither systems: in the anglostyle Rk/$mD is third cousin with Ocagliostro, while in the italian style they are fifth cousins.
Here you can see my personal view on Rockerduck's family and his relationship to Ocagliostro XI (Scrooge's one should be specular).
Apologies for popping in with so many questions lately; I'm saving a lot of it for when I have the spreadsheet published, but there are some details that I'd like to just verify as I go along
I've searched through this thread, but found nothing - though that could be a mistake on my part
So, Victor McDuck has been changed to Sargasso. Is there a reason for this? The image for him comes from this article on the Picsou Wiki - where he's labelled as Victor McDuck. We can probably assume that Victor isn't his original name - it's most likely the French translation - but where did Sargasso come from? Does someone have an original copy of the story? When I try to find results, all I can come up with is comics about the Sargasso Sea.
Next is Wilma McDuck, whose name was changed back to Meg McDuck Meg is the name given for her character on INDUCKS, but I can't find any proof of this being her name of origin: In French, it's Scarlett (Can be seen on the INDUCKS page) In Italian, it's Wilma (per Xander Ares here) On INDUCKS, the name given in both the German summary and can be seen in the German scan is "Maggie" I don't mind sticking with Meg as the name, but I feel I'd have to put it as unverified for the minute - outside of the page name on INDUCKS, I can't find any record of her being called Meg
As always, any help is appreciated!
Resident autistic, diabetic duck fan.
I love hearing about bizarre/obscure Disney works - recommendations welcome!
Hi all! Apologies for taking so long with indexing - lots going on. I'm still ticking away at it, though!
Just wondering if anyone could verify where the pic for Sourdough McDuck comes from? There doesn't seem to be any concrete information on him, but there seems to be some question around whether he actually appeared in the story in question
Any help would be appreciated!
Where is he now on the tree?
Btw, Scrooge's ancestor Douglas McDuck (Sargasso de' Paperoni in Italian, not sure where the name "Douglas" come from) probably didn't even exist, as Scrooge later confesses that he bought all that stuff he's been displaying to audience (most likely statue included) from a junk dealer.
alquackskey Sargasso was the name of the fake ancestor. Victor appears in the same story and he is an actual cousin of Scrooge, his name in the original story is "Mac Paperon".
Btw, Scrooge's ancestor Douglas McDuck (Sargasso de' Paperoni in Italian, not sure where the name "Douglas" come from) probably didn't even exist, as Scrooge later confesses that he bought all that stuff he's been displaying to audience (most likely statue included) from a junk dealer.
alquackskey Sargasso was the name of the fake ancestor. Victor appears in the same story and he is an actual cousin of Scrooge, his name in the original story is "Mac Paperon".
Thank you again! I'll mark his real name down as Mac Paperon, so
Resident autistic, diabetic duck fan.
I love hearing about bizarre/obscure Disney works - recommendations welcome!
I'm really happy to see the index taking shape. Hopefully we can reconcile the two family trees (LP's and mkr's). I can help with images for Dutch characters.
It's probably been discussed to death, but is there a concrete link for Gus' grandfather? The unnamed one?
As far as I can tell, there's no canonical link from which to include him - the only thing I can really see is the Mark Worden tree
Not suggesting he be removed or anything, but if he's never explicitly referred to as a relative, I'd like to make note of that
EDIT TO ADD: Hannibal Duck - I wanted to check his original name in Italian, and the story is called "Paperino e l'eredità Pap Paper" I don't have access to it myself, but does the name imply that Hannibal's original name is Pap Paper?
Last Edit: Dec 2, 2022 23:36:20 GMT by alquackskey
Resident autistic, diabetic duck fan.
I love hearing about bizarre/obscure Disney works - recommendations welcome!