I'm growing to really hate Angus McDucks. This one is near the bottom, as a brother of Duncan, Joakim and a few others/ He's obviously not Wee Angus, doesn't look like Pothole, Angus McHaggis, Angus McMallard, Angus (D 7984), (D 7048), (D 88149). I'm hoping that he's a translated character that I'm not recognizing, but man, I am getting REALLY sick of characters named Angus
This Angus might be from D 96322. At least, that is what my notes say. And according to INDUCKS there is an ancestor in this story. I have never read it though. Can someone check?
Yeah, that's him. You can see him in the first two panels here:
These two are listed as Humperdink's parents in Gilles' tree. They seem reminiscent of Paperett Custar and the Paperino of that era (Who we've composited with Danial, Bluffer etc) but I'm not hugely confident in that, if anyone else might be?
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Cave Duck, also known as Prehistoric Duck, comes from W DG 38-01. He's a bit of an odd one, given the circumstances in that story - he could technically be placed in the modern day or centuries before. Just thought I'd bring him up so he could be definitively added or crossed off.
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Apparently, he's just Gummo McDuck. Certainly looks like him, at least. I haven't read the issue, so I can't verify - worth bringing up just in case.
That's all the rounding up I have for now - I'll do some digging to see if I can figure out that last character, but I thought it was worth bringing up the ones listed
Great-grandpa Donald Duck is from one of the two Italian Civil War stories. Worth noting is that there is no indication that Great-Grandpa becomes romantically involved with the lady that Giles put as his wife. However, the other Italian Civil War story explicitly ends with Great-Grandpa marrying Paparett Custar, which is why I put Paparett on my tree instead of the lady that Gilles used. (Although I might make it seem like there is continuity between these Italian Civil War stories, that is very much not the case. For example: in one, Great-Grandpa is a low tier trumpet player in the army, and in the other he both joins the war and becomes a promoted high level soldier in the same story.)
I haven't been able to read the Cave Duck-story but from what I can gather he's not a biological relative. He's adopted. In real life, adopted people are as much a part of a family as biological relatives. But for the purposes of this tree I have decided to exclude adopted relatives. This is because there are multiple ones that only appear once and are then completely forgotten. For example, Scrooge has adopted at least three little boys: Bubba the Cave Duck from Classic DuckTales, the genie from DuckTales the Movie, and that dog-nose fellow from that one Italian story... I can't remember his name at the moment.
I can't remember what the deal was with Gummo/Nicodemus, but I'm certain it was discussed earlier in this thread or the Mystery Duck on the Gilles Maurice Tree-thread.
The Daisy-relatives from Donald Duck's Diary on that Daisy Tree are a fascinating mystery. I'd love to ask its creator a few question about their decisions!
edit: Oh yeah, and Angus McDuck is definitely from the story that stuftmcduck linked to. I have the Swedish version of the story, in which he is named Dolloran von Anka. Angus lived in the year 1697. Based on how Scrooge ages in Life & Times of Scrooge McDuck, Angus looks like he could to be anywhere from 25 to 90 years old. I decided a while back that he would be one or two generations outside of the tree. Then again, once I update the tree, I might as well add another generation or two to include more McDuck ancestors.
Scrooge: One moment! What year is this? Angus: 1697, of course!
Ignatius de l'Ortolan probably needs to be one generation up in the tree, beside Quagmire. His relation to Scrooge is convoluted, but it ends with great uncle, so I would put him among the great uncles (and not the great great uncles). If he were a son rather than a husband of the woman, he would be more correct.
The problem is the use of a non-existing term. Scrooge calls Ignatius his "bet-achter-oudoom". Een "oudoom" is a grand-uncle, een "achter-oudoom" would be the first cousin of a granduncle/grandfather (in English that would be called a first cousin twice removed). The term "bet" usually shifts again a generation up, like a "bet-over-grootvader" (great-great-grandfather) is the father of a "over-grootvader" (great-grandfather). But "bet" is, as far as I know, normally not used in combination with "oudoom". But if we would simply shift up one generation from "achter-oudoom" then a "bet-achter-oudoom" would be an uncle of Scrooge's grandparent (so, an "oud-oud-oom" (great-grand-uncle)), which is his current position in the tree.
The tree on the website has been updated. Most suggestions made in recent posts have been included. However, a few things I did not change (yet), awaiting further discussing/confirmation, such as the position of McTavish, Bertus Trouwhart and his parents, and the position of Upsy.
Note: all changes mentioned in this post, together with the changes mentioned in this previous post, should give all changes compared to LP 's version of the family tree. Once LP has updated his tree, I can of course make some further updates to the website, in order to make the trees more in agreement with each other.
The changes that have been made are:
Agaath from H 2016-032 was added as an aunt by marriage of AMJ. Tyte from D 2007-299 was added as a husband of an unknown sister of Muckirana O’Drake. The three Chinese cousins from HC DD2013-17S were added as the sons of HDL’s aunt Berta. Tilly from D 2003-161 was added as the daughter of Tam McTeal. The two ghost ancestor cousins of Scrooge from D 2020-079 were added as children of the Earl of Asketty. Sheamus O’Duck from H 2022-202 was added as an uncle of Anatrone O’Drake. Drusilla McSwan from D 5636 was added as the wife of Arnold Duck. The descendants of Cornelius Coot from H 2011-362 were added. Badluck Gander from YD 92-10-28 was added as a cousin of Gladstone.
Scrooge’s third cousin Jerônimo Nheka from B 72019 was added as a brother of the third wife of Diamond Dick. I made both of them children of a sister of Vermund McWildduck in order to simplify the tree a bit and remove some unknown characters.
Tobias Duck from D 98050 was put in as the father of Crockett Duck. The unnamed Duck from ZD 55-10-09 who was his father, was made Tobias’ brother. Tobias’ name and relationship to Donald are based on the Dutch translation. They still need to be verified in the original version.
Another ancestor from ZD 55-10-09 that was not yet on the tree (ye gossip) was added as another brother of Tobias Duck.
Gladstone’s ancestor from I TL 683-A was called Gastone.
The portrait of aunt Amalia from H 2019-564 was added by merging her with Donald’s great-aunt Amalia from H 2019-231 (who did not have a portrait).
Grandma’s sister from W DAD 56-03 was not on the tree due to an error. I put her back now.
Ocagliostro was made a brother of Duckpaper McPaperduck, instead of his son.
Scrooge’s fake ancestor Douglas McDuck from I TL 290-AP was removed. Scrooge’s cousin from the same story was renamed Mac Paperon.
Hannibal Duck from I TL 751-B was renamed Pap Paper. And he was moved to the American McDuck branch, becoming a son of Paper Trapper.
Annabel from I TL 820-A was renamed to Paperocchia. Daphné and Felicie from H 26240 were renamed to Daphne and Diewertje. Berthe from H 87120 was renamed Lena. Ignatius de l’Ortolan from H 95043 was renamed Ignatius Verwoerd. Edgar de l’Ortolan was renamed Stoppel Verwoerd.
Skovmand from W DG 55-02 was removed from the tree, leaving an empty box in his position.
A picture of Victoria from H 20085 was added.
In addition, the tree branches with shared relatives were combined into a single branch, resulting in the following changes:
Dead-Eye Dick Duck was made a brother of Crockett Duck’s father. Asa Duck is not married anymore to a sister of Crockett Duck’s wife (his wife is now unknown). Paperonzo Coot was made a son of Asa Duck and renamed Paperonzo Duck, while keeping his wife, children and grandchildren attached. Except, Dorinda, who was removed from this branch and made a sister of Kildare Coot. I connected another sister of Asa to become the wife of Paperon McPap. Swashbuckle was moved (together with his descendents) to become the son of Gustavo Coot. Featherbrain Duck was also moved, to become a brother of Swashbuckle. Leaving an unknown duck on his original position, so his descendents can remain where they were (for the moment, I did not move Upsy).
The mention of Edgar/Stoppel reminded me, I think he should be kicked ahead at least a couple generations; per Gilles' table he's actually still alive in the present, as one of the innumerable "competes with Scrooge for an inheritance" characters, so I doubt he'd be Scrooge's grandfather's peer.
The mention of Edgar/Stoppel reminded me, I think he should be kicked ahead at least a couple generations; per Gilles' table he's actually still alive in the present, as one of the innumerable "competes with Scrooge for an inheritance" characters, so I doubt he'd be Scrooge's grandfather's peer.
Yes, I know he is alive. It's just that the relationships actually mentioned in the story make that all a bit problematic. When HDL ask Stoppel/Edgar in the story who he is, he replies with: "Stoppel Verwoerd - De volle neef van oom Ignatius", which would translate to: "Stoppel Verwoerd - The first cousin of uncle Ignatius.", which by itself is already confusing, because he cannot be the first cousin of his own uncle...
Moreover, as I said in my other post, Ignatius is Scrooge's great-grand-uncle (at least, that's the best what I can make of "bet-achter-oudoom"). So, that's what putting Stoppel in such an old generation. If he is really a first cousin of Ignatius, he even would be a generation older then what he currently is in the tree...
A thought... is it explicit this guy is who he claims to be? The improbable age, the nonsensical relation to the deceased... is there maybe supposed to be an implication this guy is a con artist trying to (badly) bluff his way to the inheritance?
So, I know that the index is readily available, but I thought that, for the sake of convenience, I'd do an updated list of the characters that need verification of some kind:
APPEARANCE/TRANSLATED NAME VERIFIED, ORIGINAL NAME NEEDS VERIFICATION:
Bruce McDuck (D 8824). He is called Bruce McDuck in both the US and UK publications. I think the original script is also English, as the author is from the UK.
Jock (D 10014). In the American publication, this granduncle of Scrooge is called Jock McDuck. And I think we can assume that the original script was also in English, as the author is from the UK.
Unnamed (D 2007-077). I do not know for sure if the original script was written in English (I think so), but in the American publication, this ancestor is unnamed.
Flink Duck (S 63111). The picture associated with this relative is indeed from S 63111. In the Dutch translation, he is called Krelis Duck. He is a cousin of both Donald and HDL.
Drübtraut (D 2000-121). There is no Drübtraut mentioned in the American publication. Actually, there is no relative mentioned at all. I think that the original script of the story is English (the writer is from the UK) and that Drübtraut was introduced in a translation (maybe German?) or that Drübtraut is from a completely different story.
Anna-Lina Duck (D 2548). There is no relative called Anna-Lina Duck mentioned in the Dutch translation of this story. Actually, there is not any relative mentioned at all. It's of course still possible that Anna-Lina Duck was mentioned in the original script, but removed in the Dutch translation.
Doris (D 6582). Again, there is no relative called Doris mentioned in the Dutch translation of this story. Actually, there is not any relative mentioned at all. It's of course still possible that Doris was mentioned in the original script, but removed in the Dutch translation.
Elaine (D 94147) is mentioned in the American publication. HDL call her their great-aunt. I think the original script is also in English, as the writer is American.
Ottokar (D 4067). There is no relative called Ottokar mentioned in the Dutch translation of this story. Actually, there is not any relative mentioned at all. It's of course still possible that Ottokar was mentioned in the original script, but removed in the Dutch translation.
Mortimer (D 92251). Mortimer is mentioned in the American publication (and I assume that the original script was also written in English). Donald says that he found the yarn that great-great-uncle Mortimer souvenired from Lumbolaland. As Donald found the yarn on Scrooge’s attic, I think his location on the tree is wrong. He is now a cousin of Donald’s great-grandfather Duck, but he is more likely a relative from the McDuck or O’Drake side of the family.
Herbert (D 92293) is mentioned by Scrooge in the English version of this story. Scrooge says that a cupboard is full of junk from his great-uncle Herbert. I assume that the original script is also in English, since it is written by a British author.
Waldemar (S 77008). In the Dutch translation, Grandma Duck mentions her aunt Lobelia. She says that she received a brooch from her aunt in the spring of 1901. Note that in the tree, we have Waldemar as a granduncle of Grandma Duck, but in the Dutch translation she is Grandma’s aunt.
So, I know that the index is readily available, but I thought that, for the sake of convenience, I'd do an updated list of the characters that need verification of some kind:
APPEARANCE/TRANSLATED NAME VERIFIED, ORIGINAL NAME NEEDS VERIFICATION:
Bruce McDuck (D 8824). He is called Bruce McDuck in both the US and UK publications. I think the original script is also English, as the author is from the UK.
Jock (D 10014). In the American publication, this granduncle of Scrooge is called Jock McDuck. And I think we can assume that the original script was also in English, as the author is from the UK.
Unnamed (D 2007-077). I do not know for sure if the original script was written in English (I think so), but in the American publication, this ancestor is unnamed.
Flink Duck (S 63111). The picture associated with this relative is indeed from S 63111. In the Dutch translation, he is called Krelis Duck. He is a cousin of both Donald and HDL.
Drübtraut (D 2000-121). There is no Drübtraut mentioned in the American publication. Actually, there is no relative mentioned at all. I think that the original script of the story is English (the writer is from the UK) and that Drübtraut was introduced in a translation (maybe German?) or that Drübtraut is from a completely different story.
Anna-Lina Duck (D 2548). There is no relative called Anna-Lina Duck mentioned in the Dutch translation of this story. Actually, there is not any relative mentioned at all. It's of course still possible that Anna-Lina Duck was mentioned in the original script, but removed in the Dutch translation.
Doris (D 6582). Again, there is no relative called Doris mentioned in the Dutch translation of this story. Actually, there is not any relative mentioned at all. It's of course still possible that Doris was mentioned in the original script, but removed in the Dutch translation.
Elaine (D 94147) is mentioned in the American publication. HDL call her their great-aunt. I think the original script is also in English, as the writer is American.
Ottokar (D 4067). There is no relative called Ottokar mentioned in the Dutch translation of this story. Actually, there is not any relative mentioned at all. It's of course still possible that Ottokar was mentioned in the original script, but removed in the Dutch translation.
Mortimer (D 92251). Mortimer is mentioned in the American publication (and I assume that the original script was also written in English). Donald says that he found the yarn that great-great-uncle Mortimer souvenired from Lumbolaland. As Donald found the yarn on Scrooge’s attic, I think his location on the tree is wrong. He is now a cousin of Donald’s great-grandfather Duck, but he is more likely a relative from the McDuck or O’Drake side of the family.
Herbert (D 92293) is mentioned by Scrooge in the English version of this story. Scrooge says that a cupboard is full of junk from his great-uncle Herbert. I assume that the original script is also in English, since it is written by a British author.
Waldemar (S 77008). In the Dutch translation, Grandma Duck mentions her aunt Lobelia. She says that she received a brooch from her aunt in the spring of 1901. Note that in the tree, we have Waldemar as a granduncle of Grandma Duck, but in the Dutch translation she is Grandma’s aunt.
Thank you for this! All solid information, I'll add it to the index soon
For the record, I'm working on restructuring it a tad; on top of adding the new relatives, I'm going back over it just to tidy it up a bit, hence why it's taking so long
I'm surprised that so many differences - I wonder if they might have just been created for the German versions, like Seppi Deppi Duck?
Resident autistic, diabetic duck fan.
I love hearing about bizarre/obscure Disney works - recommendations welcome!
So, I know that the index is readily available, but I thought that, for the sake of convenience, I'd do an updated list of the characters that need verification of some kind:
APPEARANCE/TRANSLATED NAME VERIFIED, ORIGINAL NAME NEEDS VERIFICATION:
Bucky McDuck: D 6572 Bran McDuck: D 6572
I just read the American publication of D 6572. As the authors are from the UK, I assume that the original script is also in English. So, in the story, these two ducks indeed appear. But they are not relatives of Scrooge at all. Bran McDuck is called Bran Eiderbill in the story, and he is the caretaker of Dismal Downs. The younger one is just called Bucky and he is a nephew of Bran. The only possible relatives in the story are some unnamed potraits in the castle, that could be assumed to be McDuck ancestors, but that is not explicitly said.
I just read the American publication of D 6572. As the authors are from the UK, I assume that the original script is also in English. So, in the story, these two ducks indeed appear. But they are not relatives of Scrooge at all. Bran McDuck is called Bran Eiderbill in the story, and he is the caretaker of Dismal Downs. The younger one is just called Bucky and he is a nephew of Bran. The only possible relatives in the story are some unnamed potraits in the castle, that could be assumed to be McDuck ancestors, but that is not explicitly said.
I think I've read somewhere that in the UK version, the two are in fact McDucks, which is why I put them on the tree. But according to INDUCKS, this story was never published in the UK. I must have remembered wrong, or maybe they are McDucks in another language... Anyways, it doesn't matter, as the published version Mkr linked to does not suggest that they are a part of the Clan McDuck. They shall be removed from the tree.
This brings up another issue. Which version of a story should be deemed the most "true" version that is implemented in the tree? Is it always the English version? Is it the first original publishing? Is it the version that is in the same language which it was originally written in? For example, Scrooge's grandfather Mac Paperson wrote a letter to Scrooge in the original Italian publication of Zio Paperone e il ratto di Brigitta. In the later English translation, it is instead Scrooge's father Fergus who wrote the letter. Which version of events do we consider to be the "true" one? And would Mac Paperson even be allowed on the tree if his existence has been eliminated by Fergus?
I guess I'm asking "What are the rules here?". I can see both sides of the argument, so I'll let y'all have some input.
This brings up another issue. Which version of a story should be deemed the most "true" version that is implemented in the tree? Is it always the English version? Is it the first original publishing? Is it the version that is in the same language which it was originally written in? For example, Scrooge's grandfather Mac Paperson wrote a letter to Scrooge in the original Italian publication of Zio Paperone e il ratto di Brigitta. In the later English translation, it is instead Scrooge's father Fergus who wrote the letter. Which version of events do we consider to be the "true" one? And would Mac Paperson even be allowed on the tree if his existence has been eliminated by Fergus?
I guess I'm asking "What are the rules here?". I can see both sides of the argument, so I'll let y'all have some input.
I would say that, in principle, we follow the language in which the story was originally written and not a translation. So for I-coded stories that is Italian, for B-coded stories Brazilian Portuguese, for H-coded stories usually Dutch, and for W-, Y- and Z-coded stories that is English, and so on.
The problems are mostly with the S and D-coded stories. The S-coded stories were as far as I know all written in English, but many of them have never been published in English and only in translations. Some D-coded stories written by Danish authors were I think originally written in Danish, and there we can follow the Danish publication. Many other D-coded stories were written originally in English by non-Danish authors. These give similar problems as the S-coded stories if they were never published in English. Some H-coded stories were also originally written in English.
If we know the original script for these stories, we can see which translations actually follow the original script, but otherwise it might be hard to deduce if the the different translations give different family connections...
This brings up another issue. Which version of a story should be deemed the most "true" version that is implemented in the tree? Is it always the English version? Is it the first original publishing? Is it the version that is in the same language which it was originally written in? For example, Scrooge's grandfather Mac Paperson wrote a letter to Scrooge in the original Italian publication of Zio Paperone e il ratto di Brigitta. In the later English translation, it is instead Scrooge's father Fergus who wrote the letter. Which version of events do we consider to be the "true" one? And would Mac Paperson even be allowed on the tree if his existence has been eliminated by Fergus?
I guess I'm asking "What are the rules here?". I can see both sides of the argument, so I'll let y'all have some input.
I would say that, in principle, we follow the language in which the story was originally written and not a translation. So for I-coded stories that is Italian, for B-coded stories Brazilian Portuguese, for H-coded stories usually Dutch, and for W-, Y- and Z-coded stories that is English, and so on.
The problems are mostly with the S and D-coded stories. The S-coded stories were as far as I know all written in English, but many of them have never been published in English and only in translations. Some D-coded stories written by Danish authors were I think originally written in Danish, and there we can follow the Danish publication. Many other D-coded stories were written originally in English by non-Danish authors. These give similar problems as the S-coded stories if they were never published in English. Some H-coded stories were also originally written in English.
If we know the original script for these stories, we can see which translations actually follow the original script, but otherwise it might be hard to deduce if the the different translations give different family connections...
I would add to this that I think the first printing should be regarded as 'canon'. Cases where we know the original script diverges from the first printing can be discussed on an individual basis, depending on the situation. There likely aren't that many of those.
As much as English might be the 'canon' language of Duckburg, I personally don't think of English translations of Dutch or Italian stories as the definitive ones. Especially when they change certain details to be in line with the current continuity, such as changing Mac Paperson to Fergus.
The one exception to this might be the relationship between Scrooge and Grandma, which I think has been adopted by pretty much all editors now.
So, I know that the index is readily available, but I thought that, for the sake of convenience, I'd do an updated list of the characters that need verification of some kind:
APPEARANCE/TRANSLATED NAME VERIFIED, ORIGINAL NAME NEEDS VERIFICATION:
Bucky McDuck: D 6572 Bran McDuck: D 6572
I just read the American publication of D 6572. As the authors are from the UK, I assume that the original script is also in English. So, in the story, these two ducks indeed appear. But they are not relatives of Scrooge at all. Bran McDuck is called Bran Eiderbill in the story, and he is the caretaker of Dismal Downs. The younger one is just called Bucky and he is a nephew of Bran. The only possible relatives in the story are some unnamed potraits in the castle, that could be assumed to be McDuck ancestors, but that is not explicitly said.