Grandma Duck as Scrooge's sister: where does it come from ?

[Baar Baar Jinx]

Sept 1, 2018 17:37:00 GMT RobbK1 said:

As to Grandma's accent, as it was written, it never included Scots unique vocabulary and phrasing, unlike Scrooge's. 

Are there any examples of Scrooge's speech displaying Scottish vocabulary and phrasing in the American comics? Outside of the use of "lads" (which is often adopted by many non-Scottish speakers) and Rosa's pronounced Scottish phonemics for young Scrooge (which are lost as he reaches adulthood; Rosa also has Hortense and Matilda's speech follow the same pattern after they immigrate to America despite the fact that they're much older than Scrooge was when he left Scotland), I can't think of any instances. Barks does refer to Scrooge's Scotch accent in "Swamp of No Return", but it doesn't come into play much otherwise. DuckTales comics (like the TV shows they're based upon), and more recent translations of European stories, do inject some Scottish influences into Scrooge's dialect, but it doesn't strike me as a recognizable feature of Scrooge in the American comics from Western Publishing. Barks never had Scrooge say the silly pseudo-Scottish things like "Curse me kilts!" and "Bless me bagpipes!" that are so associated with the character in popular perception today (thanks to DuckTales).

As to the possibility of Grandma's maiden name also having been Duck, I think it's clear now that it's a common name in this universe, but we already have several unrelated families named Duck (Grandpa Duck carrying over to Donald, Dickie Duck, Daisy Duck, Belle Duck, and possibly Della's husband if you believe Duck is also her married name), so I'd prefer she have had some other name before marriage.

[Scroogerello]

Sept 1, 2018 1:57:04 GMT RobbK1 said:

When I am reading a Dutch comic book, or writing a story for Sanoma, The Ducks live in Duckstad, Netherlands (probably in Noord Holland not very far from Amsterdam), and Scrooge and Grandma are siblings.  When I'm reading a US produced story, I believe they live in Calisota, USA, between California and Oregon, and Scrooge is a McDuck, and Grandma is a "Duck".

I don't know much about how they handled this issue during the very early days of the magazine (if they ever did), but I'm quite sure the Dutch stories never indicated that Duckstad is in the Netherlands, at least not in the last 20 something years. This 1991 Jan Kruse story inducks.org/story.php?c=H+87180 , for example, specifically shows that Duckburg is in the U.S.A. (Cornelius Coot, on the other hand, seems to be of Dutch origin in this story). When the Dutch magazine had a monthly special issue dedicated to the 12 different Dutch provinces in 2012, the Ducks always went there by plane, implying to the reader that they lived far away from the Netherlands. On the other hand, there are still plenty of references to Duckburg's nearby cities which are named after real-life Dutch cities, like "Den Knaag" or "Hamsterdam", so they are still trying to relate it to Dutch readers. 

As for Grandma's accent, I would say that, if she's Scrooge's sister, she might only have a slight trace of her accent left after living in America for many years (and probably having an American husband).

[Lieju]

In my experience the Dutch comics are kinda inconsistent with it but I recall many of them just having outright Netherlands flags everywhere and they sure seem to use the Euro in Dutch duckburg...

[RobbK1]

Sept 4, 2018 6:01:27 GMT Lieju said:

In my experience the Dutch comics are kinda inconsistent with it but I recall many of them just having outright Netherlands flags everywhere and they sure seem to use the Euro in Dutch duckburg...

Yes, and Donald often drives his Nephews in a car from Duckstad to Amsterdam harbour to meet Sinterklaas, when his ship is arriving.  Can one drive a car from the southwestern end of USA to The Netherlands in a few hours?

(less than one day)? 

[rasterax]

Sept 1, 2018 14:54:02 GMT Baar Baar Jinx said:

Sept 1, 2018 14:49:36 GMT Scrooge MacDuck said:

The question came up some time ago elsewhere on the Forum. The result is that they share the same first name in German now, except that one of them is usually referred to by a nickname/diminutive form — like if Scrooge's sister was Elvira McDuck and Grandma was only ever referred to as "Elviry". 

Ugh, what a mess. It's unfortunate Rosa was not consulted during translations or made aware of the foreign naming of characters in Life of Scrooge; he could have pointed out the discrepancy and avoided this regrettable situation.

It's not true.

[Baar Baar Jinx]

Sept 4, 2018 11:53:12 GMT rasterax said:

Sept 1, 2018 14:54:02 GMT Baar Baar Jinx said:

Ugh, what a mess. It's unfortunate Rosa was not consulted during translations or made aware of the foreign naming of characters in Life of Scrooge; he could have pointed out the discrepancy and avoided this regrettable situation.

It's not true.

I wonder how this confusing situation resulted then. 

[Scroogerello]

Sept 4, 2018 6:01:27 GMT Lieju said:

In my experience the Dutch comics are kinda inconsistent with it but I recall many of them just having outright Netherlands flags everywhere and they sure seem to use the Euro in Dutch duckburg...

I can't think of any instance where Duckburg had Dutch flags everywhere, but I'm sure the flag has popped up from time to time (like the panel you show). But, regardless, as I said in my previous message, as of at least 1991 (and again in 2012, for the more recent Dutch readers) Duckburg is unambiguously *not* located in the Netherlands. 

And of course they're paying with Euro's in the Dutch translation...they're also speaking Dutch in those translations, after all! 3-6 year old Dutch kids definitely wouldn't know what a Dollar is, so things like that are translated along with everything else.

Sept 4, 2018 6:56:54 GMT RobbK1 said:

Yes, and Donald often drives his Nephews in a car from Duckstad to Amsterdam harbour to meet Sinterklaas, when his ship is arriving.  Can one drive a car from the southwestern end of USA to The Netherlands in a few hours 9less than one day)? 

Actually, I don't think there's ever been any H-coded stories where Donald and the nephews travel to Amsterdam at all. The closest thing we've had were a bunch of D-coded stories in 2010, which also treated the city as a faraway location. Dutch stories do have Sinterklaas arrive in Duckburg itself (or, actually, they used to; they quit producing Sinterklaas-related stories and specials altogether in recent years due to the Zwartepietendiscussie), so the Ducks never have to travel.

[Horace]

Sept 4, 2018 16:34:27 GMT Scroogerello said:

Sept 4, 2018 6:01:27 GMT Lieju said:

In my experience the Dutch comics are kinda inconsistent with it but I recall many of them just having outright Netherlands flags everywhere and they sure seem to use the Euro in Dutch duckburg...

I can't think of any instance where Duckburg had Dutch flags everywhere, but I'm sure the flag has popped up from time to time (like the panel you show). But, regardless, as I said in my previous message, as of at least 1991 (and again in 2012, for the more recent Dutch readers) Duckburg is unambiguously *not* located in the Netherlands. 

And of course they're paying with Euro's in the Dutch translation...they're also speaking Dutch in those translations, after all! 3-6 year old Dutch kids definitely wouldn't know what a Dollar is, so things like that are translated along with everything else.

Well, in German comics they still pay in Taler, not in Euros (as they did when we still had the D-Mark). And I think the German kids who read the "Micky Maus" magazine still get that that's a currency.

Sept 4, 2018 6:56:54 GMT RobbK1 said:

Yes, and Donald often drives his Nephews in a car from Duckstad to Amsterdam harbour to meet Sinterklaas, when his ship is arriving.  Can one drive a car from the southwestern end of USA to The Netherlands in a few hours 9less than one day)? 

Sept 4, 2018 16:34:27 GMT Scroogerello said:

Actually, I don't think there's ever been any H-coded stories where Donald and the nephews travel to Amsterdam at all.

Yes, there is:Avontuur in Amsterdam by Jan Kruse and Carlos Mota, a quite good long story in which Scrooge, Donald and the nethews travel to Amsterdam - with a plane but from Curacao. So it doesn't get really clear how far Amsterdam is supposed to be from Duckburg.

[Scroogerello]

Sept 4, 2018 17:03:27 GMT Horace said:

Sept 4, 2018 16:34:27 GMT Scroogerello said:

I can't think of any instance where Duckburg had Dutch flags everywhere, but I'm sure the flag has popped up from time to time (like the panel you show). But, regardless, as I said in my previous message, as of at least 1991 (and again in 2012, for the more recent Dutch readers) Duckburg is unambiguously *not* located in the Netherlands. 

And of course they're paying with Euro's in the Dutch translation...they're also speaking Dutch in those translations, after all! 3-6 year old Dutch kids definitely wouldn't know what a Dollar is, so things like that are translated along with everything else.

Well, in German comics they still pay in Taler, not in Euros (as they did when we still had the D-Mark). And I think the German kids who read the "Micky Maus" magazine still get that that's a currency.

Well, yeah, "Taler" is a German word. Of course German kids are going to understand it. I bet most Dutch kids will know what a "daalder" is as well, since it's a Dutch word, and not a borrowed word from the English language that refers to a foreign currency that we've never used here. Note that most countries (except Italy) change the currency to their own country's currency. Then you might as well argue that, in Danish translations Duckburg is in Denmark, in Norwegian translations, Duckburg is in Norway, etc..

[RobbK1]

Sept 4, 2018 18:44:02 GMT Scroogerello said:

Sept 4, 2018 17:03:27 GMT Horace said:

Well, in German comics they still pay in Taler, not in Euros (as they did when we still had the D-Mark). And I think the German kids who read the "Micky Maus" magazine still get that that's a currency.

Well, yeah, "Taler" is a German word. Of course German kids are going to understand it. I bet most Dutch kids will know what a "daalder" is as well, since it's a Dutch word, and not a borrowed word from the English language that refers to a foreign currency that we've never used here. Note that most countries (except Italy) change the currency to their own country's currency. Then you might as well argue that, in Danish translations Duckburg is in Denmark, in Norwegian translations, Duckburg is in Norway, etc..

We SHOULD argue that Andeby is in Denmark, and Entenhausen is in Germany, as children in those countries believe.

[Lieju]

Sept 5, 2018 0:58:30 GMT RobbK1 said:

Sept 4, 2018 18:44:02 GMT Scroogerello said:

Well, yeah, "Taler" is a German word. Of course German kids are going to understand it. I bet most Dutch kids will know what a "daalder" is as well, since it's a Dutch word, and not a borrowed word from the English language that refers to a foreign currency that we've never used here. Note that most countries (except Italy) change the currency to their own country's currency. Then you might as well argue that, in Danish translations Duckburg is in Denmark, in Norwegian translations, Duckburg is in Norway, etc..

We SHOULD argue that Andeby is in Denmark, and Entenhausen is in Germany, as children in those countries believe.

I certainly always assumed as a kid Ankkalinna was in Finland... Why wouldn't I? Especially the older translations made the attempt to place the events in Finland lot of the time... Not so much with the recent comics...

TBH I feel it's one of those things where you can argue about literal translation vs the spirit of things.

Carl Barks's Duckburg wasn't in a specific physical place anyway, just vaguely in the US, as written by the American audience. Then it could be argued that when the stories are translated it's in the original spirit to move this city to the country the kids reading it live...

[Horace]

I definitely feel like Duckburg/Mouseton (which are the same city in German comics anyway) are cities that shift places dependent on the origin countries of the stories. So it's no surprise that Sinterklaas came to Duckstad regularly or that the Ducks visit Venice all the time in Scarpa stories.

It gets a little confusing though with translated stories. Then you often get a discrepancy between images and texts. As when the Ducks go trick-or-treating on Halloween in the images but celebrate the German "Rosenmontag" (most important day of carnival) according to the text boxes. Or when all the neighbor towns of Entenhausen have southern German names but the Ducks can reach the desert and "Indian" reservations within a car ride of an hour or so...

[fredj]

I was very surprised today when I read the Swedish weekly and found the story H 2018-211, where Scrooge and Grandma are depicted as siblings. This is the first time I’ve come across this relationship in the weekly (although I haven’t read many issues post 2004, so there might be more). It surprised me because it so clearly goes against ”Scandinavian” tradition and I also got the impression (from a thread here) that Egmont tries to adher to Don Rosa. It also surprised me that it was a Dutch story, I didn’t know that relationship is used there, I thought it was an Italian thing.

Edit: The only Swedish publication I recall having used this relationship is Rota’s Buon compleanno, Paperino from 1988, which I now see appeared in the weekly in 2011.

I don’t remember having read a story with the relationship in the pocketbooks. Did Egmont avoid such stories, or perhaps masked them in translation? Or do I just have a selective memory on this issue?

[xanderares]

Sept 5, 2018 8:39:45 GMT Horace said:

I definitely feel like Duckburg/Mouseton (which are the same city in German comics anyway) are cities that shift places dependent on the origin countries of the stories. So it's no surprise that Sinterklaas came to Duckstad regularly or that the Ducks visit Venice all the time in Scarpa stories.

It gets a little confusing though with translated stories. Then you often get a discrepancy between images and texts. As when the Ducks go trick-or-treating on Halloween in the images but celebrate the German "Rosenmontag" (most important day of carnival) according to the text boxes. Or when all the neighbor towns of Entenhausen have southern German names but the Ducks can reach the desert and "Indian" reservations within a car ride of an hour or so...

Scarpa makes the ducks go to Venice many times, but with international flights. In Italy Duckburg is in America and the currency used is the dollar so much character like "Misodollar" that is called so because he hated dollars (Paperino e la palin paperon genesi INDUCK: I TL 1101-B).

[xanderares]

Feb 19, 2019 9:52:50 GMT fredj said:

I was very surprised today when I read the Swedish weekly and found the story H 2018-211, where Scrooge and Grandma are depicted as siblings. This is the first time I’ve come across this relationship in the weekly (although I haven’t read many issues post 2004, so there might be more). It surprised me because it so clearly goes against ”Scandinavian” tradition and I also got the impression (from a thread here) that Egmont tries to adher to Don Rosa. It also surprised me that it was a Dutch story, I didn’t know that relationship is used there, I thought it was an Italian thing.

Edit: The only Swedish publication I recall having used this relationship is Rota’s Buon compleanno, Paperino from 1988, which I now see appeared in the weekly in 2011.

I don’t remember having read a story with the relationship in the pocketbooks. Did Egmont avoid such stories, or perhaps masked them in translation? Or do I just have a selective memory on this issue?

There are Brazilian stories or produced by the Disney Studio (foreign market stories) which they allude to the fact that Nonna Duck and Scrooge can be at least relatives and know each other since they were children, see Golden Days On Golden Stream (S 84050) or Um Natal do Passado (B 820 168).