Let me try to sum up what's been said on this thread:
Germany:
First German story dialogue with Scrooge and GD as siblings: 1958 translation of 1956 "Scrooge's Second Childhood" (reprinted same way in Germany in 1997)
various German translations through the years state that GD is Donald's aunt (and Daisy's aunt, sigh) *and* once, at least, HDL's [great-?]aunt! (She refers to them as "meine drei Neffen." I can understand the theory that Donald is her nephew and HDL are her grandchildren, but making HDL her [great-]nephews seems bizarre. Have Germans in general thought of Donald as GD's nephew and HDL as her grandchildren? Then this story is an outlier. How did Grandma Duck get the "official nickname" Grandma Duck if she is nobody's grandmother?) Drakeborough's German correspondent says that the theory that GD is Donald's aunt is not universally accepted among German translators today. (Well, they couldn't pull that off in translations of L&T, anyway.)
Italy: (not implying that these are *all* the stories that showed Scrooge & GD as siblings, just listing ones mentioned in this thread)
1960 poetry by Martina/painting by Scarpa (but 1955 story by Martina shows them growing up in the same town/school, but definitely not siblings)
1973 story ("totem decapitano") by Martina, dialogue seems to have been edited to make Scrooge & GD brother & sister
1984 Rota's "from egg to duck" depicts Scrooge and GD as siblings, GD as Donald's adoptive mother--later Donald found to be actually Scrooge's nephew?
1996 story "le notizie...fraterne" shows Scrooge, Gideon and GD together as child-siblings in Scotland
last story known by drakeborough to have Scrooge and GD be siblings is 1999 "un cent per Millicent"
S-coded stories:
1969 "Circle of Evil"--in the Italian translation, GD calls Scrooge "fratello caro"
1982 "No Sale" and 1983 "Good Old Exciting Days" by Nofziger--in German translation, it is said, they are presented as siblings, but in Italian translation they are not
random American stories:
1953 Vacation Parade 4 Grandma Duck story by Christensen--GD mentions "Cousin Scrooge," while Donald is referred to as GD's nephew (but then, this story involves Minnie Mouse, so... Is this the story Deb referred to, where Minnie calls her "Grandma"?)
1963 "Too Much Mush" author unknown--Donald referred to as GD's nephew (thus, possibly, GD and Scrooge are siblings)
Netherlands:
A 1994 "photo album" piece shows the family with baby Scrooge, child GD and their parents. Rob reports that his impression is that Scrooge and GD were originally said to be Donald's uncle and grandmother in Dutch comics, and not portrayed as siblings in Dutch comics until the late 1980's or 1990's. Can any other of you Dutch folks confirm this? (Of course, they could be Donald's great-uncle and grandmother and still be siblings...but Rob doesn't remember their being presented as siblings earlier.) Rob says that the Dutch may have gotten the sibling idea from the Italians or the Germans. Currently, though, it seems that the sibling theory is working canon for the Dutch editors. See Scroogerello's link to Geradts' blog, where he says a story of his was rejected in 2014 because Scrooge was too nasty to GD, and he wouldn't treat his sister that way. Also, a brand-new Dutch story has Scrooge calling GD "dear sister".
Rob Klein is right. In the second story of Scrooge in the Netherlands you can deduce from the title and name how they are related. Namely: Scrooge is the brother of Donald's father and Grandma was depicted as the grandmother, but at a certain point they would find it strange that Grandma is the mother of Scrooge so they made each other brother and sister according to me.
Last week, in a special anniversary issue of "Donald Duck Weekly", a new 4-page story ( inducks.org/story.php?c=H+2018-211 ) was printed where Scrooge and Grandma are siblings. Scrooge and Grandma recall some childhood memories and their parents' lessons about the importance of saving money. What's very notable about the story, is that's the first-ever instance where Scrooge is presented as the *older* sibling. I presume the author didn't know that Grandma was always the older sibling (considerably older, in fact, if you remember the Dutch illustration where Scrooge is shown as a newborn baby, while his sister Grandma already seems to be about HDL's current age).
Unfortunately, I can't buy the issue, as it was released exclusively for subscribers to the DD magazine and is therefore not available in stores, but, on the first page scan on the INDUCKS, I can read that Scrooge mentions "I can remember the day [Grandma] was hatched from the egg like it was yesterday!", and it shows a picture of baby Scrooge with the egg.
It seems that, as of very recently, the Dutch stories may be going back to the tradition of Scrooge and Grandma being siblings, after all these years.
Last Edit: Aug 27, 2018 13:03:10 GMT by Scroogerello
Post by Baar Baar Jinx on Aug 27, 2018 13:47:35 GMT
It surprises me that the idea that Scrooge and Grandma are siblings seems to be making a comeback. I'm not one who believes that Rosa's Family Tree is gospel for all future writers, by any means, but the idea that Scrooge and Grandma grew up together ignores the known, established backgrounds of both characters (as does the alternate idea that they are not related but grew up in the same city/village). Although I suppose the theory that Grandma and Scrooge are "cousins" could work (in the same way that Grandma and Ludwig being similarly related does).
Hmm maybe it's in part a pushback to how Don Rosa's version has come to be considered the ultimate canon? I recall as a little kid thinking Scrooge and Grandma were siblings and then when L&T came out I was 'corrected' only later to realize I hadn't exactly been just making this sibling relationship up in my head...
I don't really know how much Grandma has 'known, established background' though? For Scrooge, yeah, him originally being from Scotland but why wouldn't Grandma be too? I largely prefer them as non-related though. It makes their friendship a bit different from any potential sibling stuff he might have with Matilda or Hortense.
But Gideon&Grandma&Scrooge is an interesting sibling dynamic that deserves to be explored more in my opinion.
the idea that Scrooge and Grandma grew up together ignores the known, established backgrounds of both characters
Why? I could be wrong but there's no widespread idea of what Grandma's youth was like, pre-Rosa. She could have been a Scot-born immigrant too when she arrived in Duckburg.
Why? I could be wrong but there's no widespread idea of what Grandma's youth was like, pre-Rosa. She could have been a Scot-born immigrant too when she arrived in Duckburg.
Here's what the Disney Wiki says about Grandma:
According to her debut appearances in Bob Karp and Al Taliaferro's Donald Duck newspaper comic strips, Grandma was an American pioneer, and came west in a covered wagon. The strips also portrayed her as having lived through the American Civil War, when some of the money she has been "saving for a rainy day for quite a spell" turns out to be confederate money.
Of course, a lot of this backstory is incompatible with modern, or even Rosa-esque 1950s timelines, and many of these elements were lost as the character developed, but the idea that she's "as American as apple pie" seems to have been there from the beginning. Several expressions that she uses seem to cement that concept. Surely there were also non-Barks Western stories that explored this aspect of her background?
Why? I could be wrong but there's no widespread idea of what Grandma's youth was like, pre-Rosa. She could have been a Scot-born immigrant too when she arrived in Duckburg.
Here's what the Disney Wiki says about Grandma:
According to her debut appearances in Bob Karp and Al Taliaferro's Donald Duck newspaper comic strips, Grandma was an American pioneer, and came west in a covered wagon. The strips also portrayed her as having lived through the American Civil War, when some of the money she has been "saving for a rainy day for quite a spell" turns out to be confederate money.
Of course, a lot of this backstory is incompatible with modern, or even Rosa-esque 1950s timelines, and many of these elements were lost as the character developed, but the idea that she's "as American as apple pie" seems to have been there from the beginning. Several expressions that she uses seem to cement that concept. Surely there were also non-Barks Western stories that explored this aspect of her background?
Er, this is about her young-adulthood. Who knows where she sprang from before she headed west? I could perfectly imagine an "alternate Life and Times" where Elvira and Scrooge McDuck end up in Louisville in 1881 together, and from there on make parallel journeys through America before finding each other again in Duckburg.
It really doesn't help matters when you have stories where Daisy Duck and even Mickey Mouse call her "Grandma Duck" (and Scrooge "Uncle Scrooge" for that matter). Absolute continuity has never been a big thing in Disney comics pre-Rosa (that I've noticed anyways).
Well, "Grandma Duck" has become sort of a nickname for her, so it makes sense that unrelated people would call her that way. This is similar to Grandpa Beagle, who is called that way even by obviously unrelated people like police guards or even Scrooge himself.
And Daisy has been Donald's steady girlfriend for years, so it makes sense she would call Scrooge "uncle".
I've been called "Grandpa" by a lot of people who are NOT my grandchildren, just because of my white beard.
I was wondering; do the Brazilian stories also have a tradition of portraying Scrooge and Grandma as siblings? I came across this Brazilian story today: inducks.org/story.php?c=B+820168 , which shows Scrooge and Grandma together during their childhood on the farm, (with their grandmother "Hortensia", who looks identical to Grandma Duck) so I assume that they are brother and sister here as well. Does anyone know more about it?
Also, although perhaps not entirely befitting of this topic: Scrooge's mother in this story: inducks.org/story.php?c=I+TL++697-B , (which has a storyline that's very, very similar to that of Don Rosa's "Of Ducks, Dimes and Destines", by the way) looks quite a lot like Grandma Duck, although it is not specified whether she is also Grandma Duck's mother or not.
Of course, a lot of this backstory is incompatible with modern, or even Rosa-esque 1950s timelines, and many of these elements were lost as the character developed, but the idea that she's "as American as apple pie" seems to have been there from the beginning. Several expressions that she uses seem to cement that concept. Surely there were also non-Barks Western stories that explored this aspect of her background?
Er, this is about her young-adulthood. Who knows where she sprang from before she headed west? I could perfectly imagine an "alternate Life and Times" where Elvira and Scrooge McDuck end up in Louisville in 1881 together, and from there on make parallel journeys through America before finding each other again in Duckburg.
I seem to remember seeing 2 or 3 different Tony Strobl-drawn stories in which Grandma was depicted as a youthful American pioneer woman, twice with her husband (Grandpa Duck), riding across the American West, (ostensibly towards Duckburg) (probably along The Oregon Trail), and once as a child, together with her Duck parents. But, I also remember a Dutch story drawn by my friend, Freddy Milton, showing a young adult Grandma Duck (ostensibly living on a farm in The Netherlands, in a rural area (ostensibly not far away from Duckstad). But, then, I've NEVER (since 1952) been able to reconcile, and so combine, the canons of Dutch and US/Canadian Disney Duck universes (just as I have never been able to combine or reconcile the Barks vs. non-Barks Duck universes).
Placing The Barks Duck Universe first in importance, and adding non-Barks when it doesn't conflict with Barks, I believe that Grandma is a "Duck", on Donald's father's side of his family, while Scrooge is a McDuck, from Donald's mother's side. I believe that her farmer parents emigrated from The Netherlands (maybe their family name was "Eend"-and they "Anglicised it)), or England to America during the mid 1800s, and rode across to The West Coast. Why would Scrooge have a Scots accent, and Grandma NOT have one, if both had been raised in Scotland, if she were older than he? That could only mean that she had left Scotland BEFORE the age of language freezing (12-14). Why would she have come to America at such a young age, WITHOUT her parents? It is impossible to reconcile all the different portrayals of The duck family history.
When I am reading a Dutch comic book, or writing a story for Sanoma, The Ducks live in Duckstad, Netherlands (probably in Noord Holland not very far from Amsterdam), and Scrooge and Grandma are siblings. When I'm reading a US produced story, I believe they live in Calisota, USA, between California and Oregon, and Scrooge is a McDuck, and Grandma is a "Duck".
I seem to remember seeing 2 or 3 different Tony Strobl-drawn stories in which Grandma was depicted as a youthful American pioneer woman, twice with her husband (Grandpa Duck), riding across the American West, (ostensibly towards Duckburg) (probably along The Oregon Trail), and once as a child, together with her Duck parents.
These are the kind of Western Publishing stories I was thinking about. Does anyone have any further details on such stories?
Is 12-14 years really the age when one's accent gets cemented? I would have thought it was much younger. A question for linguists, I suppose. One could argue that Grandma's accent has never really been commented on in the comics, so she could have a Scottish accent for all we know (she did not in her sole speaking appearance in animation, This is Your Life, Donald Duck; it's still controversial whether the old duck lady in SoccerMania was really her, but that character did not have a Scottish accent either). Some of the expressions she uses are distinctly American, but I guess she could have picked them up in adulthood, so it's not necessarily dispositive of anything (for that matter, classic adult Comics-Scrooge, unlike DuckTales Scrooge and other animated versions of the character, rarely uses Scottish expressions and often indulges in Americanisms).
I agree with you that Grandma is related to Donald on his father's side, not his mother's. However, her family name would not be "Duck" (or Eend) as that would be her husband's name. Rosa gave her the name "Coot" which one can accept or reject, I suppose (although it was indirectly legitimized in animation in Legends of the Three Caballeros). I personally disliked Rosa's depiction of Donald being a descendant of the founder of Duckburg, because it gives him yet another reason to be a semi-celebrity (like being the nephew and probable heir of the richest man in the world). I do like the idea that Grandma is of Dutch descent, however.
I believe Rosa once mentioned that European publishers assumed that Hortense, when she appeared as a baby in the first chapter of Life of Scrooge, was actually Grandma. Was that reflected in the final published version? If so, how did they reconcile it when Hortense and Elvira finally met in the series?
I believe Rosa once mentioned that European publishers assumed that Hortense, when she appeared as a baby in the first chapter of Life of Scrooge, was actually Grandma. Was that reflected in the final published version? If so, how did they reconcile it when Hortense and Elvira finally met in the series?
The question came up some time ago elsewhere on the Forum. The result is that they share the same first name in German now, except that one of them is usually referred to by a nickname/diminutive form — like if Scrooge's sister was Elvira McDuck and Grandma was only ever referred to as "Elviry".
The question came up some time ago elsewhere on the Forum. The result is that they share the same first name in German now, except that one of them is usually referred to by a nickname/diminutive form — like if Scrooge's sister was Elvira McDuck and Grandma was only ever referred to as "Elviry".
Ugh, what a mess. It's unfortunate Rosa was not consulted during translations or made aware of the foreign naming of characters in Life of Scrooge; he could have pointed out the discrepancy and avoided this regrettable situation.
I seem to remember seeing 2 or 3 different Tony Strobl-drawn stories in which Grandma was depicted as a youthful American pioneer woman, twice with her husband (Grandpa Duck), riding across the American West, (ostensibly towards Duckburg) (probably along The Oregon Trail), and once as a child, together with her Duck parents.
These are the kind of Western Publishing stories I was thinking about. Does anyone have any further details on such stories?
Is 12-14 years really the age when one's accent gets cemented? I would have thought it was much younger. A question for linguists, I suppose. One could argue that Grandma's accent has never really been commented on in the comics, so she could have a Scottish accent for all we know (she did not in her sole speaking appearance in animation, This is Your Life, Donald Duck; it's still controversial whether the old duck lady in SoccerMania was really her, but that character did not have a Scottish accent either). Some of the expressions she uses are distinctly American, but I guess she could have picked them up in adulthood, so it's not necessarily dispositive of anything (for that matter, classic adult Comics-Scrooge, unlike DuckTales Scrooge and other animated versions of the character, rarely uses Scottish expressions and often indulges in Americanisms).
I agree with you that Grandma is related to Donald on his father's side, not his mother's. However, her family name would not be "Duck" (or Eend) as that would be her husband's name. Rosa gave her the name "Coot" which one can accept or reject, I suppose (although it was indirectly legitimized in animation in Legends of the Three Caballeros). I personally disliked Rosa's depiction of Donald being a descendant of the founder of Duckburg, because it gives him yet another reason to be a semi-celebrity (like being the nephew and probable heir of the richest man in the world). I do like the idea that Grandma is of Dutch descent, however.
I believe Rosa once mentioned that European publishers assumed that Hortense, when she appeared as a baby in the first chapter of Life of Scrooge, was actually Grandma. Was that reflected in the final published version? If so, how did they reconcile it when Hortense and Elvira finally met in the series?
12 to 14 is the range of ages during which the child's habits related to the ways of pronouncing their native language's sounds become cemented, so that those sounds will be detectable when the person speaks his or her adopted second language, when attempting to pronounce the analogous consonants and vowels (IF, and only if the child did NOT hear and speak(at least a little) the later adopted language. When you mentioned thinking that the "cementing" of one's accent happens long before age 12, I think you meant the proper sounding of the consonants and vowels is learnt at an early age. And THAT is true. My mentioning of the "cementing" is the pronunciation of those sounds in the child's native language are carried over to the adopted 2nd language, assuring a "foreign-sounding accent". The average English speaker, who never heard the sound of Dutch language as a child, has tremendous difficulty reproducing the various gutteral sounds, tsounds made from the back of the throat, sounds made from the front of the mouth, etc. And most of them, who learned the new language after age 13-14 always carry a very distinct foreign (English) accent.
As to Grandma's accent, as it was written, it never included Scots unique vocabulary and phrasing, unlike Scrooge's. So, I had to deduce that she came to USA with her parents, as a child. If she had come as a teenager, she'd have a Dutch, Scottish, British English, German or French accent (which doesn't show up in her speech balloons). IF she had been raised in The Netherlands, I would guess her North American grandchildren would call her "Oma", and Grandpa would have been called "Opa". Yes, her last name could have been Coot, as Grandpa would have had to have the name, "Duck". But her family name could also have been "Duck", as it was as common as the English "Smith", or German "Mueller" ("ue" stands for U with umlaut). One of my best friends, with a common name, married a woman whose family had the same family name as his. There are 1000s of Kleins. I could have easily married one who is not related to me.
