Ducktales 2017

[Matilda]

So, back to voices....if that's the scenario, Flintheart wouldn't have a Scottish brogue, would he? Maybe just a wisp of one from his father, but Flintheart was born and raised in South Africa. He may be proud of his Scottish heritage, but he wouldn't have a strong Scottish accent.

[Scrooge MacDuck]

Dec 19, 2016 22:59:06 GMT Ramapith said:

That's exactly what is described in the story Rob mentions.

It's "The Glomgold Heritage" by Lars Jensen and Marco Rota.
It tells of how Stoneheart Glomgold—Flintheart's grandfather first seen in this story—was a Scottish hansom cab driver working in England.
Later he moved to South Africa with his son, Brickheart; and there, later, Flintheart was born.

But I'm leaving out all the interesting parts of the story! Go read it for yourself (at least in the States, we published it quite recently).

I'm afraid I'll have to wait. Getting American comics is a slow process. But I'm definitely looking forward to reading both of these stories.

[drakeborough]

Dec 19, 2016 21:24:43 GMT RobbK1 said:

So, if Barks mentioned that Glomgold's heritage was Scottish, I reject the idea that Glomgold's ancestors were Boers.  If he didn't, I assume they were Boers, and descended from the original Dutch Cape Colonists in the 1600s.

Your second hypothesis is true: Barks never mentioned Gomgold's heritage being Scottish.

Dec 19, 2016 21:44:37 GMT Scrooge MacDuck said:

Don Rosa seems to have made a mistake on History, which is rather unlike him, but in the commentary for the chapter, if I recall correctly, he basically defined "boer" as "someone of European descent who was born in South Africa".

According the Wikipedia article Boer:

Boer (English pronunciation: /ˈboʊ.ər/, /bɔːr/ or /bʊər/;[2] Afrikaans: [buːr]) is the Dutch and Afrikaans word for "farmer". As used in South Africa, it was used to denote the descendants of the Dutch-speaking settlers of the eastern Cape frontier[3] in Southern Africa during the 18th century.

I fail to see where is the mistake on History.

[Scrooge MacDuck]

Dec 20, 2016 18:11:59 GMT drakeborough said:

Dec 19, 2016 21:24:43 GMT RobbK1 said:

So, if Barks mentioned that Glomgold's heritage was Scottish, I reject the idea that Glomgold's ancestors were Boers. If he didn't, I assume they were Boers, and descended from the original Dutch Cape Colonists in the 1600s.

Your second hypothesis is true: Barks never mentioned Gomgold's heritage being Scottish.

Dec 19, 2016 21:44:37 GMT Scrooge MacDuck said:

Don Rosa seems to have made a mistake on History, which is rather unlike him, but in the commentary for the chapter, if I recall correctly, he basically defined "boer" as "someone of European descent who was born in South Africa".

According the Wikipedia article Boer:

Boer (English pronunciation: /ˈboʊ.ər/, /bɔːr/ or /bʊər/;[2] Afrikaans: [buːr]) is the Dutch and Afrikaans word for "farmer". As used in South Africa, it was used to denote the descendants of the Dutch-speaking settlers of the eastern Cape frontier[3] in Southern Africa during the 18th century.

I fail to see where is the mistake on History.

I'm not saying Robb is mistaken, I'm saying Don Rosa is, because he only defined "boer" as "someone born in South Africa, but of European descent" in his commentary, if memory serves right.

[drakeborough]

Dec 20, 2016 19:52:50 GMT Scrooge MacDuck said:

Dec 20, 2016 18:11:59 GMT drakeborough said:

According the Wikipedia article Boer:

Boer (English pronunciation: /ˈboʊ.ər/, /bɔːr/ or /bʊər/;[2] Afrikaans: [buːr]) is the Dutch and Afrikaans word for "farmer". As used in South Africa, it was used to denote the descendants of the Dutch-speaking settlers of the eastern Cape frontier[3] in Southern Africa during the 18th century.

I fail to see where is the mistake on History.

I'm not saying Robb is mistaken, I'm saying Don Rosa is, because he only defined "boer" as "someone born in South Africa, but of European descent" in his commentary, if memory serves right.

Well, I didn't say you said that Robb is mistaken (my answer to Robb and my answer to you are two unrelated parts of my previous message), I (implicitly) said you said Don Rosa is mistaken, and this is what was questioning, since the two definitions of "boer" (the one I found on Wikipedia and the one you remembered from a Rosa text) don't seem very different to me, with the exception of "Dutch" vs a generic "European". Are you sure his commentary actually says "European"? It would be good to have an actual quote to comment.

[Scrooge MacDuck]

I'll try to check, though, of course, that will be from the French translation of his commentary.

[RobbK1]

Dec 19, 2016 21:44:37 GMT Scrooge MacDuck said:

Don Rosa seems to have made a mistake on History, which is rather unlike him, but in the commentary for the chapter, if I recall correctly, he basically defined "boer" as "someone of European descent who was born in South Africa". In that light, I thought the most obvious hypothesis would be for Glomgold to have been born in South Africa to Scottish parents.

I have a fair amount of family in South Africa, whose ancestors immigrated there from South Holland (Den Haag area of The Netherlands) and Antwerpen.  I know that if you call a South African Caucasian of British ancestry a "Boer", he would be highly insulted (and, of course deny it).  "Boers" has come to mean all South Africans whose first language is Afrikaans, and who live in that culture.  Originally, it referred only to the Dutch settlers who came there to farm.  Those Dutch immigrants who came to work in the cities, Kapstaadt (Capetown), Johannesburg, Natal, Pietermaritzburg, etc. were NOT originally considered "Boers".

[RobbK1]

Dec 20, 2016 5:15:43 GMT Matilda said:

So, back to voices....if that's the scenario, Flintheart wouldn't have a Scottish brogue, would he? Maybe just a wisp of one from his father, but Flintheart was born and raised in South Africa. He may be proud of his Scottish heritage, but he wouldn't have a strong Scottish accent.

No he wouldn't have a Scots accent.  He'd have the typical South African accent in English that the English community there has, which sounds like a mixture of Canadian and Australian, with a touch of Old Dutch over it, especially on word endings (influence from Afrikaans).  I'm trying to think of a famous English South African whose accent you all would remember, but I can't.  There were a few World class golfers and tennis players when I was young, but they'd be to long gone for most of you to remember their speech.  And the famous Prime Ministers who were in office when South Africa was in World news, during Aparteit, were "Boers", and had a heavy Afrikaans accent in their English, not sounding much like The English South Africans.

[Scrooge MacDuck]

Dec 20, 2016 23:21:20 GMT RobbK1 said:

Dec 20, 2016 5:15:43 GMT Matilda said:

So, back to voices....if that's the scenario, Flintheart wouldn't have a Scottish brogue, would he? Maybe just a wisp of one from his father, but Flintheart was born and raised in South Africa. He may be proud of his Scottish heritage, but he wouldn't have a strong Scottish accent.

No he wouldn't have a Scots accent.  He'd have the typical South African accent in English that the English community there has, which sounds like a mixture of Canadian and Australian, with a touch of Old Dutch over it, especially on word endings (influence from Afrikaans).  I'm trying to think of a famous English South African whose accent you all would remember, but I can't.  There were a few World class golfers and tennis players when I was young, but they'd be to long gone for most of you to remember their speech.  And the famous Prime Ministers who were in office when South Africa was in World news, during Aparteit, were "Boers", and had a heavy Afrikaans accent in their English, not sounding much like The English South Africans.

Not that any of this accounts for Flintheart Glomgold having a distinctly English name, though. I'm firmly standing by Marco Rota's version of the Glomgold family backstory.

[RobbK1]

Dec 20, 2016 22:42:57 GMT drakeborough said:

Dec 20, 2016 19:52:50 GMT Scrooge MacDuck said:

I'm not saying Robb is mistaken, I'm saying Don Rosa is, because he only defined "boer" as "someone born in South Africa, but of European descent" in his commentary, if memory serves right.

Well, I didn't say you said that Robb is mistaken (my answer to Robb and my answer to you are two unrelated parts of my previous message), I (implicitly) said you said Don Rosa is mistaken, and this is what was questioning, since the two definitions of "boer" (the one I found on Wikipedia and the one you remembered from a Rosa text) don't seem very different to me, with the exception of "Dutch" vs a generic "European". Are you sure his commentary actually says "European"? It would be good to have an actual quote to comment.

I think that "generic European" refers mainly to Dutch (including the Flemish portion of Belgium, which formed part of The Netherlands in the late 1500s through early 1600s, and again from 1815-1830), Germans, and French Huganots, and NOT people from The British Isles, who have insisted that their lands are NOT part of Europe since the end of the last ice age, when the sea rose, cutting them off.  They proved that recently with their "Brexit vote".

[Scrooge MacDuck]

Dec 20, 2016 23:30:31 GMT RobbK1 said:

Dec 20, 2016 22:42:57 GMT drakeborough said:

Well, I didn't say you said that Robb is mistaken (my answer to Robb and my answer to you are two unrelated parts of my previous message), I (implicitly) said you said Don Rosa is mistaken, and this is what was questioning, since the two definitions of "boer" (the one I found on Wikipedia and the one you remembered from a Rosa text) don't seem very different to me, with the exception of "Dutch" vs a generic "European". Are you sure his commentary actually says "European"? It would be good to have an actual quote to comment.

I think that "generic European" refers mainly to Dutch (including the Flemish portion of Belgium, which formed part of The Netherlands in the late 1500s through early 1600s, and again from 1815-1830), Germans, and French Huganots, and NOT people from The British Isles, who have insisted that their lands are NOT part of Europe since the end of the last ice age, when the sea rose, cutting them off.  They proved that recently with their "Brexit vote".

The European Union and Europe are two different things, and the UK and Southern Ireland are undeniably part of the European culture.

[Fritz]

As for Glomgold being a Boer or not...we're talking about Flintheart Glomgold, remember? Consider the context in which he told Scrooge he was a Boer: he was trying to put Scrooge at ease so he could later rob him.

In other words, it's always possible Glomgold was lying about being a Boer.

[RobbK1]

Dec 21, 2016 10:23:23 GMT Scrooge MacDuck said:

Dec 20, 2016 23:30:31 GMT RobbK1 said:

I think that "generic European" refers mainly to Dutch (including the Flemish portion of Belgium, which formed part of The Netherlands in the late 1500s through early 1600s, and again from 1815-1830), Germans, and French Huganots, and NOT people from The British Isles, who have insisted that their lands are NOT part of Europe since the end of the last ice age, when the sea rose, cutting them off.  They proved that recently with their "Brexit vote".

The European Union and Europe are two different things, and the UK and Southern Ireland are undeniably part of the European culture.

All non-Brits would say so.  But, most of the people from The British Isles that I've met (and I've been visiting there and living there part time for over 50 years) would claim they are not part of Europe).  And that's referring to the continent and its culture, not the political/economic entity.  They have wanted to remain separate for as long as I can remember, and throughout history (from what I've learned).  In any case, it is well known that the vast majority (probably over 95%) of The Boers had their origins from ancestors from Dutch (including the Flemish portion of Belgium, which formed part of The Netherlands in the late 1500s through early 1600s, and again from 1815-1830), Germans, and French Huganots.  The few others probably came from other continental Europeans, extremely few, if any of whom were British (as they would have much better opportunities to join the English-speaking communities in The Cape Colony and Natal, rather than homesteading a farm in the Orange Free State, The Transvaal, or in rural districts surrounding Johannesburg.

[RobbK1]

Dec 21, 2016 23:05:18 GMT Fritz said:

As for Glomgold being a Boer or not...we're talking about Flintheart Glomgold, remember? Consider the context in which he told Scrooge he was a Boer: he was trying to put Scrooge at ease so he could later rob him.

In other words, it's always possible Glomgold was lying about being a Boer.

Did Glomgold state to Scrooge that he was a Boer in a Barks, or Rosa story?  If he did that in a Barks story, I would take him to his word, unless Barks already had shown that Glomgold's ancestors emigrated from Scotland.  I don't recall that he did that. I think that a lot of readers just assumed that, because he was a "carbon copy" of Scrooge in almost every other way.

[Fritz]

Did Glomgold state to Scrooge that he was a Boer in a Barks, or Rosa story? If he did that in a Barks story, I would take him to his word, unless Barks already had shown that Glomgold's ancestors emigrated from Scotland. I don't recall that he did that. I think that a lot of readers just assumed that, because he was a "carbon copy" of Scrooge in almost every other way.

Having just rechecked the Gladstone Album (GGI 4) that reprinted all three of Barks' Glomgold stories, I'm pretty sure all Barks ever said about Glomgold's backstory was that his kindly mother would have been disappointed at what a crook her Flinty had become.

Glomgold being a Boer, as far as I know, is an assumption based on his South African location, and Rosa's one reference in "Terror of the Transvaal" (D 92273/US 290) Which under the circumstances we can take with many grains of salt, as I said.